What is more important to you, life or guns?

bongsaway said:

For most gun owners, guns are much more important than other's lives. Turtle is your perfect example.

I would put life above firearms but that's me.

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Do you want to ban cars?

Frigidweirdo said:

What, like the UK has a murder rate 5 times lower than the US murder rate?

Even London, on the news for being really violent, has a murder rate lower than the US average, which is lower than any US city with a population of 280,000 or more.

Perspective. London has a murder rate of 1.5. The US's is about 5. St Louis's is 66.07.

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Here's some perspective for you...

London murder rate overtakes New York's - BBC News

bongsaway said:

None of the rights you mention kill people, guns do. So tell me felis, if your family was on the chopping block and you had to give up your guns to save them, would you?

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I would open fire long before my family got put on the chopping block and if they ended up on the chopping block, then I'm dead, anyway.

Would you kill to protect your family?

independentusa said:

Every heard the of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

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I couldnt find it quickly, but I remember reading somewhere that the 2A was created to ensure & protect all the others. And that would include LL&PH.

OTOH, the DOI is not a legally-binding document, but the Const is what our laws are founded on.

And...there are no such things as God-given rights. Rights are a man-made concept.

Just for fun, I also dont accept that the order in which listed indicates priority. It's Life, Liberty, AND Pursuit of Happiness. Not 'or,' not 'then.' So as a basis for your entire argument, it's not a solid foundation at all.

bongsaway said:

For most gun owners, guns are much more important than other's lives. Turtle is your perfect example.

I would put life above firearms but that's me.

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I put my life and my family's lives ahead of those who would do us harm. Thus I am armed, and have a ccw. Me owning firearms in no way diminishes your right to life or anything else, no matter how much you say to the contrary. Now I will note, my right to own the arms I want to-is far more important to me than your "right" to not get upset or your right not to be fearful over others being armed.

TurtleDude said:

I put my life and my family's lives ahead of those who would do us harm. Thus I am armed, and have a ccw. Me owning firearms in no way diminishes your right to life or anything else, no matter how much you say to the contrary. Now I will note, my right to own the arms I want to-is far more important to me than your "right" to not get upset or your right not to be fearful over others being armed.

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Turtle did you really think that response was needed? As if I don't know where you stand on this particular issue.

And actually, when I go outside of my house, the last thing in my mind is firearms and I better be on the lookout for loonies.

independentusa said:

Every heard the of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It is in the Declaration of Independence. I find it interesting that as part of our God given rights, life comes before liberty and happiness. In our country that is no longer true. Life seems to come after guns. To so many Americans the loss of life is just what people have to pay so they can have all and any type of guns they want. Some on this board actually believe that the weapons they should be able to own include something like the M259 Saw, a weapon that is fully automatic and can put out up to 800 rounds per minute. Just think how many lives would have been lost if the Dayton or El Paso shooter would have been able to buy that kind of weapon at any gun shop? I come from a military family and none of my family think that the public should be able to buy military weapons. I think we ought to change the Declaration to say instead of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" to "semiautomatics rifles, automatic pistols and body armor". Doesn't have the same punch, but is more closely in tune with modern day America.

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Same damn crap. Just think of if he couldn't have bought a semi automatic 22 rifle so instead carried the same weight in a modern chemical bomb?
Yes, since most progressive fascists WANT Americans murdered - for which they are posting signs advertising zones where they are protecting mass murderers - it stands to reason not only do they want anyone even being able to try to stop the murdering to be thrown in prison, like you in your message, even want body armor banned because ideally ANYTHING that might prevent an American from being murdered MUST be outlawed.
The level of hatred of Americans by the Democratic Party now is growing exponentially as it becomes the fascist party wants what fascist want - lots and lots and lots murdering, the only thing better than a dozen people murdered is a thousand, but ideally at least 20% of the population.
That the OPer wants body armor outlawed, when all body armor does is possible save a life, the OP message doesn't even hide a wish for lots of murders and demanding no one resist being murdered.

bongsaway said:

Turtle did you really think that response was needed? As if I don't know where you stand on this particular issue.

And actually, when I go outside of my house, the last thing in my mind is firearms and I better be on the lookout for loonies.

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Most progressives think they are specially entitled from birth that everything will be exactly as they want - and certainly would never think about coming to anyone else's rescue in their :me! me! me! Everything is about me! Everyone owes me!"

Why are you on the lookout for "loonies?" Nothing you can or would do about it by your messages.

independentusa said:

Every heard the of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It is in the Declaration of Independence. I find it interesting that as part of our God given rights, life comes before liberty and happiness. In our country that is no longer true. Life seems to come after guns. To so many Americans the loss of life is just what people have to pay so they can have all and any type of guns they want. Some on this board actually believe that the weapons they should be able to own include something like the M259 Saw, a weapon that is fully automatic and can put out up to 800 rounds per minute. Just think how many lives would have been lost if the Dayton or El Paso shooter would have been able to buy that kind of weapon at any gun shop? I come from a military family and none of my family think that the public should be able to buy military weapons. I think we ought to change the Declaration to say instead of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" to "semiautomatics rifles, automatic pistols and body armor". Doesn't have the same punch, but is more closely in tune with modern day America.

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You like the idea of having the legal facility to kill one another as easily as possible as you claim that defines your 'freedom' . In reality it defines your backward barbarism viz every other developed country on earth.

But you clearly like it that way as another 40,000 needless violent fatalities this year will attest. Fill yer boots you guardians of 'freedom' :doh

Lursa said:

I couldnt find it quickly, but I remember reading somewhere that the 2A was created to ensure & protect all the others. And that would include LL&PH.

OTOH, the DOI is not a legally-binding document, but the Const is what our laws are founded on.

And...there are no such things as God-given rights. Rights are a man-made concept.

Just for fun, I also dont accept that the order in which listed indicates priority. It's Life, Liberty, AND Pursuit of Happiness. Not 'or,' not 'then.' So as a basis for your entire argument, it's not a solid foundation at all.

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The phrase "the pursuit of happiness" contextual to back then was the right to purchase the labor/job/work you want to do - and to be able to dictate how much you charge for that work.

People forget that at that time, the concept not only of democracy but also individual personal rights essentially did not exist in the world. No where and basically never had. Nearly everyone was a slave, serf, peasant - all subject to the whims of the government, the rich and the powerful. Even into the 1800s, TORTURE an DEBTORS PRISONS existed across Europe, even in the UK.

The founders did not see government as every rescuing anyone. They saw government as THE GREAT EVIL of the world. In many of their writings, they stated the primary reason the citizens can not be disarmed is to prevent the government from becoming tyrannical. The "militia" was NOT to be a State government run militia nor one of the federal government. It was SUPPOSED to be private citizens who themselves organized as a militia (also noting there were VERY few police back then unless the massive number now) to protect themselves, each other, their community and our nation - including from the government if need be.

People forget that it was the American REVOLUTIONARY war - in which a majority of people in the United States - all citizens of Great Britain - declared they would no longer let the government control them and went to outright war over it.

They feared exactly what has happened. The USA becoming the country with more of its citizens in prison than any other country, laws outlawing people even being able to defend themselves, a billion pages of laws, regulations and restrictions, increasingly dictating how people may speak, what job they may and may not have, seizing people's property without any hearing whatsoever... and more and more and more government oppression and subjugation.

Of the various reasons the "founders" wanted Americans armed - in fact their number one reason - was to be able to protect themselves for an tyrannical government - and to forcibly remove it AGAIN if necessary.

flogger said:

You like the idea of having the legal facility to kill one another as easily as possible as you claim that defines your 'freedom' . In reality it defines your backward barbarism viz every other developed country on earth.

But you clearly like it that way as another 40,000 needless violent fatalities this year will attest. Fill yer boots :wink:

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While you demand the government required that you and your family are as easily killed as is possible.

But for peasants finally able to obtain guns, you would be thrown in prison and tortured for any criticism of your government - but then increasingly those are the laws your government is passing.

Why not get yourself put into prison and then spit at guards so they put you in solitary. Then your wish will FINALLY come true - you will be as safe as possible from other people nor otherwise having anything to worry about. You will have no bills and be fed every day. What else in life could YOU want given your messages? Solitary confinement would be your utopia come true.

I bet you don't know that in Europe the homicide rate was over 10,000% higher before peasants were able to have self defense weapons, and fell like a rock after ordinary people could have guns. Obviously you want your society to return to a pre-gun, defenseless peasant state.

40,000 deaths? You want the condition for ordinary people that would instead mean 4,000,000 deaths a tear. Since that is the quest of the progressive corporate-fascism movement lead by the richest corporations and men on earth, maybe your wish will come true. LOTS and LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of rape, torture and murder, but not by ordinary people with guns. Ordinary people exist for the purpose of being used and abused - no other purpose.

joko104 said:

While you demand the government required that you and your family are as easily killed as is possible.

But for peasants finally able to obtain guns, you would be thrown in prison and tortured for any criticism of your government - but then increasingly those are the laws your government is passing.

Why not get yourself put into prison and then spit at guards so they put you in solitary. Then your wish will FINALLY come true - you will be as safe as possible from other people nor otherwise having anything to worry about. You will have no bills and be fed every day. What else in life could YOU want given your messages? Solitary confinement would be your utopia come true.

I bet you don't know that in Europe the homicide rate was over 10,000% higher before peasants were able to have self defense weapons, and fell like a rock after ordinary people could have guns. Obviously you want your society to return to a pre-gun, defenseless peasant state.

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Well I do like the idea that I'm over 50 times less likely to be shot dead than you are and I'm very good with that :wink:

jamesrage said:

Again that link doesn't prove what the number of homicides they had before they enacted their draconian gun control laws. Saying the UK has lower amount of homicides than the US doesn't mean dick if their homicide were already extremely low to be begin with before they even enacted their draconian gun control laws.

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The "draconian gun control laws" didn't do that much at all.

The problem is you seem to think guns were awash in the UK before the 1997 gun law, and then lacking afterwards.

The UK has had gun laws for hundreds of years.

apdst said:

Here's some perspective for you...

London murder rate overtakes New York's - BBC News

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Okay, here's the perspective.

One of the US's lowest murder cities, compared to the UK's highest, and then compare them when London is at it's worst point in a long, long time, and New York isn't having a bad time.

That was a while ago, the murder rate went down soon after those two months.

joko104 said:

Most progressives think they are specially entitled from birth that everything will be exactly as they want - and certainly would never think about coming to anyone else's rescue in their :me! me! me! Everything is about me! Everyone owes me!"

Why are you on the lookout for "loonies?" Nothing you can or would do about it by your messages.

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I'm not and I stated as such. Joko my...whatever you are, unless the republicans somehow repeal social security, just about nothing that happens in washington or for that matter any level of government is going to affect me. I'm pretty much set. I own my home, no mortgage, I have medicare, I'm not in a flood zone and I just got a new 55 inch tv. I don't really need much of anything. I see the inequality in america and how the republicans defend that inequality with words like socialism and phrases like take from the rich and give to the poor. One of us is on the wrong side of history with their thinking.

jamesrage said:

Again those stats don't prove a before and after the UK enacted their draconian gun control laws.

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Sure they do. Before the Firearms Act of 1920, there was no meaningful restriction on getting a pistol in the UK. It's hard to imagine what you would call a better "before/after".

Frigidweirdo said:

Okay, here's the perspective.

One of the US's lowest murder cities, compared to the UK's highest, and then compare them when London is at it's worst point in a long, long time, and New York isn't having a bad time.

That was a while ago, the murder rate went down soon after those two months.

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Link?

bongsaway said:

Turtle did you really think that response was needed? As if I don't know where you stand on this particular issue.

And actually, when I go outside of my house, the last thing in my mind is firearms and I better be on the lookout for loonies.

Click to expand...

so if you see dangerous loonies-are you going to arm yourself, or hope others who do-will show up if needed?

apdst said:

Link?

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Really? The link was already provided by you.

London murder rate overtakes New York's - BBC News

"So far in 2018, the Met Police has investigated 46 murders, compared with 50 in the US city."

But look

London murder rate 2018 - how many murders have there been so far & which city has the world'''s highest murder rate?

19 Dec 2018

"London's murder rate has overtaken New York's for the first time, with the Met Police launching 130 investigations in 2018"

So, in the first three months there were 46 murders in London. Then there were 130 in the whole year. So, that's 84 from April to the middle of December. 15 murders per month more or less during the year.

New York City Murders on the Rise in 2018, NYPD Data Shows - WSJ

"The city recorded 147 murders between Jan. 1 and June 30"

So, by the end of June, New York City would have more murders than London would have up to December 19th.

List of United States cities by crime rate - Wikipedia

New York here has a murder rate of 3.39, only San Jose and San Diego in California have a murder rate lower of cities with 1 million people. LA with a population half the size has a murder rate of 7.01, Chicago of 2.7 million has 24.13.

How dangerous is your Borough? 20+ London crime statistics 2019

London's crime rate is increasing, hardly surprising seeing the cuts the Tories have put in place. They're literally demanding the police police the city and country without enough resources, and they've taken away programs like sport (around the Olympics in 2012) that helped keep kids off the streets.



"The number of knife crimes peaked in 2011/12 with over 14,000 incidents. This number fell from here down to a recent low of 9,700 in 2014/15.

Since then, knife crime in the capital has been on the rise, reaching 14,700 in 2017/18 – the highest levels in over 10 years. Find out below which boroughs have the highest count of knife crimes:"

Frigidweirdo said:

Really? The link was already provided by you.

London murder rate overtakes New York's - BBC News

"So far in 2018, the Met Police has investigated 46 murders, compared with 50 in the US city."

But look

London murder rate 2018 - how many murders have there been so far & which city has the world'''s highest murder rate?

19 Dec 2018

"London's murder rate has overtaken New York's for the first time, with the Met Police launching 130 investigations in 2018"

So, in the first three months there were 46 murders in London. Then there were 130 in the whole year. So, that's 84 from April to the middle of December. 15 murders per month more or less during the year.

New York City Murders on the Rise in 2018, NYPD Data Shows - WSJ

"The city recorded 147 murders between Jan. 1 and June 30"

So, by the end of June, New York City would have more murders than London would have up to December 19th.

List of United States cities by crime rate - Wikipedia

New York here has a murder rate of 3.39, only San Jose and San Diego in California have a murder rate lower of cities with 1 million people. LA with a population half the size has a murder rate of 7.01, Chicago of 2.7 million has 24.13.

How dangerous is your Borough? 20+ London crime statistics 2019

London's crime rate is increasing, hardly surprising seeing the cuts the Tories have put in place. They're literally demanding the police police the city and country without enough resources, and they've taken away programs like sport (around the Olympics in 2012) that helped keep kids off the streets.



"The number of knife crimes peaked in 2011/12 with over 14,000 incidents. This number fell from here down to a recent low of 9,700 in 2014/15.

Since then, knife crime in the capital has been on the rise, reaching 14,700 in 2017/18 – the highest levels in over 10 years. Find out below which boroughs have the highest count of knife crimes:"

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Where's the part about London's crime rate going down?

apdst said:

Where's the part about London's crime rate going down?

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You posted "link?" and that was it. If you want specifics then you can damn well speak clearer. I'm not playing these games.

Frigidweirdo said:

You posted "link?" and that was it. If you want specifics then you can damn well speak clearer. I'm not playing these games.

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So, you lied. Got it!

TurtleDude said:

so if you see dangerous loonies-are you going to arm yourself, or hope others who do-will show up if needed?

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As much as I don't like the police in general, I would call them if need be. So far after sixty five plus years, that situation has never arisen.

independentusa said:

Every heard the of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It is in the Declaration of Independence. I find it interesting that as part of our God given rights, life comes before liberty and happiness. In our country that is no longer true. Life seems to come after guns. To so many Americans the loss of life is just what people have to pay so they can have all and any type of guns they want. Some on this board actually believe that the weapons they should be able to own include something like the M259 Saw, a weapon that is fully automatic and can put out up to 800 rounds per minute. Just think how many lives would have been lost if the Dayton or El Paso shooter would have been able to buy that kind of weapon at any gun shop? I come from a military family and none of my family think that the public should be able to buy military weapons. I think we ought to change the Declaration to say instead of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" to "semiautomatics rifles, automatic pistols and body armor". Doesn't have the same punch, but is more closely in tune with modern day America.

Click to expand...

Having a gun isn't killing me. If it does you, than don't have one.

Tlrmln said:

Sure they do. Before the Firearms Act of 1920, there was no meaningful restriction on getting a pistol in the UK. It's hard to imagine what you would call a better "before/after".

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What were the amount of homicides before 1920? Where they drastically higher before the Firearms act of 1920?