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What is more important to you, life or guns?

PirateMk1 said:
Believe it or not but barrel life on modern XM134's are rated for 200,000 rounds and they typically have superior moa than single barrel machine guns in the same caliber. Its why they have been putting them in aircraft door gunner positions lately.
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I am 60, that was when I was a grade school kid IIRC
 
Frigidweirdo said:
What, like the UK has a murder rate 5 times lower than the US murder rate?

Even London, on the news for being really violent, has a murder rate lower than the US average, which is lower than any US city with a population of 280,000 or more.

Perspective. London has a murder rate of 1.5. The US's is about 5. St Louis's is 66.07.
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1.The UK even before they enacted their draconian gun control laws has had a much lower murder rate.

2.Their murder rate didn't change even after enacting their draconian gun control laws. They only thing that changed for the UK is the weapons used to commit murder.IN England and Wales for example their murder rate shot up a little bit after the ban, went down a little after than and its going back up.
Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics

Homocide England and Wales.jpg
 
jamesrage said:
1.The UK even before they enacted their draconian gun control laws has had a much lower murder rate.

2.Their murder rate didn't change even after enacting their draconian gun control laws. They only thing that changed for the UK is the weapons used to commit murder.IN England and Wales for example their murder rate shot up a little bit after the ban, went down a little after than and its going back up.
Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics

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Probably because you don't understand the British gun laws. They weren't US style gun laws before the 1997, they were already restrictive. The gun law banned handguns, but there are still millions of people who own guns in the UK.

The gun law wasn't designed to stop general murder. However the problem with your analysis is that things began to change soon after the gun law with the Yardies turning up with smuggled guns from Jamaica (or at least the Yardies were from Jamaica).

The gun murder rate went up because of them and was dealt with by the police and the government.

The simple fact is that the US has a murder rate FIVE TIMES HIGHER than most other first world countries.

You're trying to somehow write stuff and make it look like the US doesn't have a problem and that problem isn't guns. You didn't succeed.
 
Seems like a false dichotomy. However, I support limits on idiots playing Rambo, especially if they're nutters.
 
Frigidweirdo said:
Probably because you don't understand the British gun laws. They weren't US style gun laws before the 1997, they were already restrictive. The gun law banned handguns, but there are still millions of people who own guns in the UK.

The gun law wasn't designed to stop general murder. However the problem with your analysis is that things began to change soon after the gun law with the Yardies turning up with smuggled guns from Jamaica (or at least the Yardies were from Jamaica).

The gun murder rate went up because of them and was dealt with by the police and the government.

The simple fact is that the US has a murder rate FIVE TIMES HIGHER than most other first world countries.

You're trying to somehow write stuff and make it look like the US doesn't have a problem and that problem isn't guns. You didn't succeed.
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I never claimed the US had low murder rate. I claimed the that UK has always had a low murder rate even before its draconian gun control laws.
 
Felis Leo said:
Would you tell me, bongsaway, which other rights and freedoms would you be willing to do away with entirely within our society in order to protect your own life or the lives of others? The right to free speech? The right to vote? The right to trial by jury? Freedom from unreasonable search and seizure?

If every member of your family and circle of friends' necks were on a chopping block, and you had to choose between watching them all be bloodily executed and preserving these rights, or preserving their lives and seeing these rights done away with, how would you choose?
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None of the rights you mention kill people, guns do. So tell me felis, if your family was on the chopping block and you had to give up your guns to save them, would you?
 
TurtleDude said:
that's really really stupid. I am armed and well trained because I highly value my life and the lives of my family and friends and I am in a better position to protect those lives than cowardly gun haters who want to cower and hide, hoping the cops appear soon enough to save something they don't think is worth protecting in the first place.
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That is total bs. I'm sorry you feel as if the only thing that will protect the things precious to you are guns. Also I don't hate guns, I don't want to take guns away from people either. I want to see gun control. Not people control.
 
bongsaway said:
None of the rights you mention kill people, guns do. So tell me felis, if your family was on the chopping block and you had to give up your guns to save them, would you?
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that's really stupid to say owning a gun kills people. Does owning a camera cause kiddie porn? Does owning a car mean pedestrians run down?
 
bongsaway said:
That is total bs. I'm sorry you feel as if the only thing that will protect the things precious to you are guns. Also I don't hate guns, I don't want to take guns away from people either. I want to see gun control. Not people control.
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we have gun gun laws-anything harmful you can do with a gun is illegal. those adjudicated too dangerous to own guns cannot.
 
bongsaway said:
None of the rights you mention kill people, guns do.
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Really? There is a contingent who would argue that free speech does kill people. So do rights to jury trials and Fifth Amendment rights, violations of which let criminals off the hook who then go and murder again. Is that an argument for free speech or for your freedom from self-incrimination to be done away with? Because others abuse theirs which lead to the loss of innocent life?


bongsaway said:
So tell me felis, if your family was on the chopping block and you had to give up your guns to save them, would you?
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I will answer when you do.

You right to vote, your right to free speech, your right to a trial by jury, your right to freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, for the lives of your family. What do you choose?
 
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jamesrage said:
I never claimed the US had low murder rate. I claimed the that UK has always had a low murder rate even before its draconian gun control laws.
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I got that. The problem is you seem to be making a simplistic argument.

The UK before the handgun ban was still a restrictive place for guns. Unless you understand the facts, then you'll jump to false conclusions.

The reality is the UK has a lower murder rate because A) there are less guns and B) because the authorities actually try and deal with the problems of the country
 
Frigidweirdo said:
I got that. The problem is you seem to be making a simplistic argument.

The UK before the handgun ban was still a restrictive place for guns. Unless you understand the facts, then you'll jump to false conclusions.

The reality is the UK has a lower murder rate because A) there are less guns and B) because the authorities actually try and deal with the problems of the country
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and England had lower rates of unarmed violent assaults and knife assaults years ago, compared to the USA even though the number of people with fists and knives were pretty similar in terms of rates between the USA and the UK. However, as British nanny state idiocy has increased, so has their rate of actual violence.
 
Frigidweirdo said:
I got that. The problem is you seem to be making a simplistic argument.

The UK before the handgun ban was still a restrictive place for guns. Unless you understand the facts, then you'll jump to false conclusions.

The reality is the UK has a lower murder rate because A) there are less guns and B) because the authorities actually try and deal with the problems of the country
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Do you got anything that shows their murder rates before and after those other draconian gun control laws were enacted other than the semiautomatic firearms ban?
 
TurtleDude said:
that's really stupid to say owning a gun kills people. Does owning a camera cause kiddie porn? Does owning a car mean pedestrians run down?
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Are cars designed to make child porn?

Tell me what was an AR-15 designed to do?
 
Rich2018 said:
Are cars designed to make child porn?

Tell me what was an AR-15 designed to do?
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AR 15s are intended to shoot a 5.56MM bullet or other caliber in many cases. Period. I own lots of them. I have won 15 or so 3G matches with the 556 chambered versions and a couple dozen steel matches with a highly modified 9mm AR 15
 
jamesrage said:
Do you got anything that shows their murder rates before and after those other draconian gun control laws were enacted other than the semiautomatic firearms ban?
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What?
 
jamesrage said:
So you got nothing to prove that UK's draconian gun control laws had anything to do with their murder rates being low.
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Actually I couldn't understand a thing you were trying to say.

I can't "prove" anything. This isn't an issue where there's going to be 100% proof of anything. To ask such a question is to show lack of understanding of the issues.

One of the biggest issues with gun crime is the availability of guns to criminals.

So what I'll do is present some things, and then you can look at the argument I'm making and you can try and pick holes in it, okay?

Comparison of international gun homicides.

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia

The US has a gun homicide rate of 4.46

The UK has a gun homicide rate of 0.06

Switzerland has a gun homicide rate of 0.15

Now, Switzerland has a lot of guns, but also has strict laws on how you keep guns, so guns aren't actually that easily available to criminals. Whereas in the US they are. They on'y have a rate of 27 guns per 100 people, compared to 120 for the US.

England and Wales has a rate of 4.6 guns per 100 people.

Germany, has a higher gun murder rate than Switzerland with 19.6 guns per 100 people and a gun murder rate. Germany has a rate of about 1 per 100,000 for gun murders.

So, the factors we're looking at here are easy availability of guns. Not numbers of guns. In the US guns are so easy to get. In Switzerland they're difficult because of the laws. In Germany they're easier to get hold of and gun murders increase.
 
Stupid false dichotomy.

I value both life and my right to own guns (and for that matter, my right to own a car that can go faster than 45 mph, and my right to consume alcohol, neither of which would be very useful for saving my life, unlike a gun).
 
Frigidweirdo said:
Actually I couldn't understand a thing you were trying to say.

I can't "prove" anything. This isn't an issue where there's going to be 100% proof of anything. To ask such a question is to show lack of understanding of the issues.

One of the biggest issues with gun crime is the availability of guns to criminals.

So what I'll do is present some things, and then you can look at the argument I'm making and you can try and pick holes in it, okay?

Comparison of international gun homicides.

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia

The US has a gun homicide rate of 4.46

The UK has a gun homicide rate of 0.06

Switzerland has a gun homicide rate of 0.15

Now, Switzerland has a lot of guns, but also has strict laws on how you keep guns, so guns aren't actually that easily available to criminals. Whereas in the US they are. They on'y have a rate of 27 guns per 100 people, compared to 120 for the US.

England and Wales has a rate of 4.6 guns per 100 people.

Germany, has a higher gun murder rate than Switzerland with 19.6 guns per 100 people and a gun murder rate. Germany has a rate of about 1 per 100,000 for gun murders.

So, the factors we're looking at here are easy availability of guns. Not numbers of guns. In the US guns are so easy to get. In Switzerland they're difficult because of the laws. In Germany they're easier to get hold of and gun murders increase.
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There are plenty of countries where it's not easy to get guns legally, but that have much higher homicide rates than the US.
 
jamesrage said:
Do you got anything that shows their murder rates before and after those other draconian gun control laws were enacted other than the semiautomatic firearms ban?
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Actually, before either the US or the UK had any gun laws worth mentioning, the murder rate in the US was about 8 times that of the UK. After the UK started passing strict gun laws, that ratio fell to a little north of 4 to 1.
 
Tlrmln said:
There are plenty of countries where it's not easy to get guns legally, but that have much higher homicide rates than the US.
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Yes, but I'm talking about first world countries for a reason.

The US has certain reasonable expectations about crime and murder, in comparison with other first world countries.

When you get to third world countries, murder is often impacted by other things. Control of guns in not so easy and often not a priority for certain governments, whereas in others it's all they think about. So it's hard to compare the US with South Africa or Honduras, for example.
 
Tlrmln said:
Actually, before either the US or the UK had any gun laws worth mentioning, the murder rate in the US was about 8 times that of the UK. After the UK started passing strict gun laws, that ratio fell to a little north of 4 to 1.
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I'm wondering how far back you have statistics here.

Firearms, the Law and Forensic Ballistics - Tom Warlow, T A Warlow - Google 圖書

1508, yes, we're going back this far, and Henry VII banned use of guns or crossbows without Royal permission.

In the same century only people with 300 Marks could own weapons, required hunting licenses and you have had to have property worth £100, banned birdshots. Also Elizabeth I banned Wheellocks in 1594.

So... how far back do your murder stats go?
 
Frigidweirdo said:
I'm wondering how far back you have statistics here.

Firearms, the Law and Forensic Ballistics - Tom Warlow, T A Warlow - Google 圖書

1508, yes, we're going back this far, and Henry VII banned use of guns or crossbows without Royal permission.

In the same century only people with 300 Marks could own weapons, required hunting licenses and you have had to have property worth £100, banned birdshots. Also Elizabeth I banned Wheellocks in 1594.

So... how far back do your murder stats go?
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I only need to go back to the early 1900s, when anyone in England could buy a pistol without so much as writing their name down.

https://en.wikipedia.orgwiki/Firearms_regulation_in_the_United_Kingdom#Pistols_Act_1903
 
Frigidweirdo said:
Yes, but I'm talking about first world countries for a reason.

The US has certain reasonable expectations about crime and murder, in comparison with other first world countries.

When you get to third world countries, murder is often impacted by other things. Control of guns in not so easy and often not a priority for certain governments, whereas in others it's all they think about. So it's hard to compare the US with South Africa or Honduras, for example.
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It's also hard to compare the US with England or Germany, for similar reasons and only to a lesser extent.
 
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