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A few seconds to reload can help lives: discussion about magazines

pamak said:
I saw a post in the Breaking News Forum related to the topic and I wanted to respond when I realized that the moderators closed that thread temporarily with a warning that such gun control discussions should take place in this subforum. So, I decided to start a thread here
No, actually it CAN make a difference to spend a couple of seconds in changing a magazine in a crowded space!

Waffle House 'hero' disarmed shooter, tossed rifle over counter

"Had that guy had a chance to reload his weapon, there was plenty more people in that restaurant," Cordero told the Tennessean.


Football coach hailed as hero for disarming gunman outside Oregon high school - ABC News

Hero students disarm gunman during Colorado school shooting - Chicago Sun-Times

It seems that among crowds, there is always a chance that you will have this brave individual who will decide to neutralize the shooter. And in such scenario, every second counts...
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It does not take many seconds to change out low capacity magazines, so the difference may not be as great as some non-shooters might think. Besides, shooters don't always use high capacity magazines which committing mass murder. The two unregenerate barbarian punks who shot up Columbine, killing 13 and wounding 21, used 10 round magazines and they had 13 of them. Not only that but they finished their killing in 16 minutes which left them with time to spare since it took 3 hours and 14 minutes for police to finally get inside the building and find them.
 
Exquisitor said:
No, actually you are partizan.
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Only because I know the facts.. and that fact is.. what you said was not true.

Look.. i get..it,. you don't want to debate with real logic.. So you just want to ignore the fact that after researching 10 years of the assault weapons ban.. that no statistically significant was found on violence or crime.

I get that you want to ignore the fact that after the assault weapons ban was allowed to expire.. statistically violent crime went down.. as gun sales went up.
 
pinqy said:
I tried explaining to some tacticool wannabe why no one in the military would want the 100 round magazine he was showing off. He didn’t get it.
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Not only jamming but relly military have to carry plenty of gear, drum mags are awkward to carry, while magazines can be distributed through the molle or alice system and not hinder movement. The military usually limits carrying large capacities to where needed and much of the methodology used is from decades of experience.

On the tacticool thing I can not stand it, I will rock some bdu's any day of the week but this whole tacticool stuff mostly seems to be for show than practicality. When you see a guy with military uniform who is civilian and never served, wearing it with a molle or alice system, with enough magazines on them to make them an easy target due to weight, and so many accessories on their ar15 that they can barely carry it from weight, you know they are all show and no go. Military uniforms I can understand, I love them because how tough they are and all the pockets, plus the old surplus are cheap, but when you carry more tactical gear on your person than a whole squad of rangers to go to a shooting range you look rediculous.
 
HumblePi said:
I never dodged your question, I gave a complete and fairly thorough explanation about what rights the average American relinquished as a result of the Patriot Act. I kept it as short and as succinct as I could because I understand that sometimes it's difficult for some people to read so many words and be able to comprehend them at the same time. So, to make it easier for you since you seem to want your facts illustrated by way of bullet points, I'll do that for you just this one time. After this effort on my part, you're completely on your own, don't expect others to do the research for you.

Freedoms given up after the Patriot Act was enacted;

  • The issue surrounding the USA PATRIOT Act as unconstitutional hinges on the fact that Search Warrants are issued secretly, often retroactively, and, therefore, without oversight to ensure that the precepts regarding the Search and Seizure of personal property are upheld.
  • Amendment IV : The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
  • The PATRIOT Act allowing secret courts to retroactively produce secret warrants is dangerous to the liberties explicitly recognized and protected in the Constitution - therefore a threat to our entire way of life as the people of a free nation.
  • It was written to protect a corporate fascist oligarchy from the legitimate outrage of Citizens by allowing “our” government to illegally & un-Constitutionally spy upon us & to declare us to be “terrorists” if and when we rose up to dispute the intentionally constructed massive wealth inequality, created by Congress, in what is OUR nation.
  • Just six weeks after the September 11 attacks, a panicked Congress passed the "USA/Patriot Act," an overnight revision of the nation's surveillance laws that vastly expanded the government's authority to spy on its own citizens, while simultaneously reducing checks and balances on those powers like judicial oversight, public accountability, and the ability to challenge government searches in court.
  • Several provisions of the Patriot Act made it much easier for the government to collect millions of Americans' communications records.

If you have a smartphone, the NSA is tracking your every step. They can pinpoint your location even if you're taking a pee in the public restroom at McDonalds. Haven't you ever wondered how your cellphone knows that you like pizza or Nike sneakers? You shouldn't be surprised because your whereabouts, your habits, what you like to eat and your social networks are being tracked every minute of the day.

I hope that's sufficient information for you Tlrmlln because if it's not then you're not interested in facts.
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That's all fascinating, and we could get into a long interesting discussion about it, if it weren't for the fact that it's totally off topic. But the fact remains that you haven't actually provided any facts responsive to my question, which was (since you seem to have lost track): "What liberty did you have to sacrifice because of the Patriot Act?"

I mean, if your answer is "my liberty not to have my communications records collected by the government," then why didn't you just say that the first time? Of course, nothing you've written actually establishes this to be the case, but I won't go there. But I do find it amusing, given the fact that you appear to believe that the government has a right to know about every firearm a person owns, and maybe even every round of ammunition.
 
marke said:
It does not take many seconds to change out low capacity magazines, so the difference may not be as great as some non-shooters might think. Besides, shooters don't always use high capacity magazines which committing mass murder. The two unregenerate barbarian punks who shot up Columbine, killing 13 and wounding 21, used 10 round magazines and they had 13 of them. Not only that but they finished their killing in 16 minutes which left them with time to spare since it took 3 hours and 14 minutes for police to finally get inside the building and find them.
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The VT killer did over 17 reloads with ten round magazines.
 
Tlrmln said:
That's all fascinating, and we could get into a long interesting discussion about it, if it weren't for the fact that it's totally off topic. But the fact remains that you haven't actually provided any facts responsive to my question, which was (since you seem to have lost track): "What liberty did you have to sacrifice because of the Patriot Act?"

I mean, if your answer is "my liberty not to have my communications records collected by the government," then why didn't you just say that the first time? Of course, nothing you've written actually establishes this to be the case, but I won't go there. But I do find it amusing, given the fact that you appear to believe that the government has a right to know about every firearm a person owns, and maybe even every round of ammunition.
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My rights and privacy were invaded the last time I had to pass through a backscatter x-ray scanner at Albany International airport. It wasn't my choice and didn't want to do it, but TSA has the authority under the Patriot Act to force it on people.
 
HumblePi said:
My rights and privacy were invaded the last time I had to pass through a backscatter x-ray scanner at Albany International airport. It wasn't my choice and didn't want to do it, but TSA has the authority under the Patriot Act to force it on people.
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Nobody forced you to go to the airport.

Do you consider it a violation of your rights if you go to a public pool, and they tell you that you have to take off your jacket and shoes before you get in?
 
Tlrmln said:
Even if it's true that the lack of 11+ round magazines could make a difference, banning them won't actually stop mass murderers from getting them.
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The Dayton shooter used a hundred round drum magazine which are legal. The only thing that stopped him from killing a lot more people, as he was only feet from the door to the bar, was the policemen.
 
independentusa said:
The Dayton shooter used a hundred round drum magazine which are legal. The only thing that stopped him from killing a lot more people, as he was only feet from the door to the bar, was the policemen.
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What does that have to do with my comment?

I imagine that also would have been true if he'd used 10 10-round magazines.
 
jaeger19 said:
Only because I know the facts.. and that fact is.. what you said was not true.

Look.. i get..it,. you don't want to debate with real logic.. So you just want to ignore the fact that after researching 10 years of the assault weapons ban.. that no statistically significant was found on violence or crime.

I get that you want to ignore the fact that after the assault weapons ban was allowed to expire.. statistically violent crime went down.. as gun sales went up.
Click to expand...

Bull****!
 
beerftw said:
Not only jamming but relly military have to carry plenty of gear, drum mags are awkward to carry, while magazines can be distributed through the molle or alice system and not hinder movement. The military usually limits carrying large capacities to where needed and much of the methodology used is from decades of experience.

On the tacticool thing I can not stand it, I will rock some bdu's any day of the week but this whole tacticool stuff mostly seems to be for show than practicality. When you see a guy with military uniform who is civilian and never served, wearing it with a molle or alice system, with enough magazines on them to make them an easy target due to weight, and so many accessories on their ar15 that they can barely carry it from weight, you know they are all show and no go. Military uniforms I can understand, I love them because how tough they are and all the pockets, plus the old surplus are cheap, but when you carry more tactical gear on your person than a whole squad of rangers to go to a shooting range you look rediculous.
Click to expand...

I agree. Some time back I purchased a Saiga 12 (semi auto 12 gauge in AK47 form and Russian made) with every attachment you could think of. A flare launcher below the barrel, essentially a grenade launcher, 30 shell canister, muzzle brake, laser, flashlight and folding bipod.

It was so heavy and ridiculous I promptly sold it. I had posted a picture of it on the forum back them. For a shotgun, it's still the old hammer lock double short barrel coach shotgun with 5 extra shells on the buttstock.

Got my first AR15 last week. I swapped it for a better one with lots of upgrades, I have ordered upgrades, and this week it goes to a gunsmith to flute the barrel to lighten it. No flashlight. Not a triple stacked scope, nothing on it to make it look cool. The reason I never bought one is I do NOT like the military look - so had a Mini 14 instead. I sold it, but got another one of those last week at the same time as the AR. The AR is a superior firearm, but I wish it looked like the Mini 14.

Sadly, you can buy and put a wood buttstock and hollowed wood front grip on an AR. But then it looks like an AK47 - which is worse. There are bullpup kits for it making it look like other bullpups (and I like the bullpup design). But they look really cheaply made, could hold in a lot of heat and they look too weird. :lol:
 
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pinqy said:
I tried explaining to some tacticool wannabe why no one in the military would want the 100 round magazine he was showing off. He didn’t get it.
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Weight of ammo (plus others like recoil for rapid firing) was a major consideration to go to the much smaller and lighter 5.56 from the .308.
 
Tlrmln said:
Nobody forced you to go to the airport.

Do you consider it a violation of your rights if you go to a public pool, and they tell you that you have to take off your jacket and shoes before you get in?
Click to expand...

You asked for an example and I gave you one, now you want to argue with my example? That's clearly an indication that all you want to do is argue, not debate. Goodbye
 
TurtleDude said:
He's right, you are wrong Violent crime was decreasing after the idiotic clinton gun ban sunset.
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Link please, Russian spies didn't need links, so neither do I.
 
Exquisitor said:
Link please, Russian spies didn't need links, so neither do I.
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You want a link and then said you don't need one-make up your mind.
 
Exquisitor said:
Link please, Russian spies didn't need links, so neither do I.
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read this-both NRA and DiFi have cited it to support their claims.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/204431.pdf

the second has all sorts of information


Gun Control – Just Facts

and finally this


Did mass shootings increase 200 percent since assault weapons ban expired? | PolitiFact Florida

Former President Bill Clinton made a similar point as Deutch in 2013 when he said, "Half of all mass killings in the United States have occurred since the assault weapons ban expired in 2005, half of all of them in the history of the country." The Washington Post Fact Checker awarded the claim Three Pinocchios.
 
joko104 said:
I agree. Some time back I purchased a Saiga 12 (semi auto 12 gauge in AK47 form and Russian made) with every attachment you could think of. A flare launcher below the barrel, essentially a grenade launcher, 30 shell canister, muzzle brake, laser, flashlight and folding bipod.

It was so heavy and ridiculous I promptly sold it. I had posted a picture of it on the forum back them. For a shotgun, it's still the old hammer lock double short barrel coach shotgun with 5 extra shells on the buttstock.

Got my first AR15 last week. I swapped it for a better one with lots of upgrades, I have ordered upgrades, and this week it goes to a gunsmith to flute the barrel to lighten it. No flashlight. Not a triple stacked scope, nothing on it to make it look cool. The reason I never bought one is I do NOT like the military look - so had a Mini 14 instead. I sold it, but got another one of those last week at the same time as the AR. The AR is a superior firearm, but I wish it looked like the Mini 14.

Sadly, you can buy and put a wood buttstock and hollowed wood front grip on an AR. But then it looks like an AK47 - which is worse. There are bullpup kits for it making it look like other bullpups (and I like the bullpup design). But they look really cheaply made, could hold in a lot of heat and they look too weird. :lol:
Click to expand...

Yeah people like to load quad rails to the max and never think of practicality, they look good for fashion if that is someones thing. The common rifle tactical setup is the quad rail, which was not built so you could stuff front to back ever accessory known to man, but rather to give flexibility of more than one plus choosing where to put the accessory vs on the top only like older rifle rails.
 
pamak said:
I saw a post in the Breaking News Forum related to the topic and I wanted to respond when I realized that the moderators closed that thread temporarily with a warning that such gun control discussions should take place in this subforum. So, I decided to start a thread here



No, actually it CAN make a difference to spend a couple of seconds in changing a magazine in a crowded space!

Waffle House 'hero' disarmed shooter, tossed rifle over counter

"Had that guy had a chance to reload his weapon, there was plenty more people in that restaurant," Cordero told the Tennessean.


Football coach hailed as hero for disarming gunman outside Oregon high school - ABC News

Hero students disarm gunman during Colorado school shooting - Chicago Sun-Times

It seems that among crowds, there is always a chance that you will have this brave individual who will decide to neutralize the shooter. And in such scenario, every second counts...
Click to expand...

It's pretty bizarre that you would cite three examples, none of which actually involved the shooter getting tackled while reloading.
 
Tlrmln said:
It's pretty bizarre that you would cite three examples, none of which actually involved the shooter getting tackled while reloading.
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It is pretty bizzare that you make such comment when in one of the links it specifically says that

Had that guy had a chance to reload his weapon, there was plenty more people in that restaurant," Cordero told the Tennessean.

More importantly, you miss the point of the argument which is that in mass shootings in crowded space, every second counts because it gives the opportunity to some nearby brave individuals to neutralize the shooter. For this reason,I can use any case in which the shooters wastes a few seconds for whatever reason. It does not have to be ONLY cases of reloading the weapon.
 
pamak said:
It is pretty bizzare that you make such comment when in one of the links it specifically says that

Had that guy had a chance to reload his weapon, there was plenty more people in that restaurant," Cordero told the Tennessean.

More importantly, you miss the point of the argument which is that in mass shootings in crowded space, every second counts because it gives the opportunity to some nearby brave individuals to neutralize the shooter. For this reason,I can use any case in which the shooters wastes a few seconds for whatever reason. It does not have to be ONLY cases of reloading the weapon.
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Who says they would? Besides, I can change out a magazine in 2 seconds depending on where I'm carrying the magazine. How close to people do you think a guy with a rifle is/has to be? Probably not '2-3 seconds' close.

Of course if individuals are so minded, hopefully everyone in the place is watching and waiting for an opportunity to rush the shooter. But I doubt it.
 
I have always had a problem with weapons that can shoot many rounds without reloading. Pistols can go 10 rounds. Perhaps rifles should be bolt action only unless you have a special need such as rual areas and farms ?
 
Lursa said:
Who says they would? Besides, I can change out a magazine in 2 seconds depending on where I'm carrying the magazine. How close to people do you think a guy with a rifle is/has to be? Probably not '2-3 seconds' close.

Of course if individuals are so minded, hopefully everyone in the place is watching and waiting for an opportunity to rush the shooter. But I doubt it.
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You can change it in 2 seconds in the shooting range. Real life performance is a different animal. There have been studies showing guys scoring 90% on target at the shooting range falling to 30% in real life shooting incidents.

Also, mass shooters are often young males with little experience in guns. Incidentally, it seems that the El Paso shooter fits that profile too.
El Paso suspect's mother called police concerned about gun - CNN

The El Paso shooting suspect's mother called the Allen, Texas, Police Department weeks before the shooting because she was concerned about her son owning an "AK" type firearm, lawyers for the family confirmed to CNN.

The mother contacted police because she was worried about her son owning the weapon given his age, maturity level and lack of experience handling such a firearm, attorneys Chris Ayres and R. Jack Ayres said.

The guys who disarmed the shooters in the examples I cited were probably within 2-3 seconds. I fit guy can easily cover a distance of 20 yards in that time span.
 
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pamak said:
You can change it in 2 seconds in the shooting range. Real life performance is a different animal. There have been studies showing guys scoring 90% on target at the shooting range falling to 30% in real life shooting incidents.

Also, mass shooters are often young males with little experience in guns. Incidentally, it seems that the El Paso shooter fits that profile too.
El Paso suspect's mother called police concerned about gun - CNN

The El Paso shooting suspect's mother called the Allen, Texas, Police Department weeks before the shooting because she was concerned about her son owning an "AK" type firearm, lawyers for the family confirmed to CNN.

The mother contacted police because she was worried about her son owning the weapon given his age, maturity level and lack of experience handling such a firearm, attorneys Chris Ayres and R. Jack Ayres said.

The guys who disarmed the shooters in the examples I cited were probably within 2-3 seconds. I fit guy can easily cover a distance of 20 yards in that time span.
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Nope, moving and shooting in IDPA training inside and outside on a course.

And these guys live for their showdowns...esp since most believe they are going to die...their entire life is absorbed by preparing...and that includes training.

I read that about the El Paso shooter's mother. While I'm glad she did so and wish the cops had paid attention...I doubt she had any idea what his skill level was. I saw him wearing ear protection...that's preparation from experience. I heard him shooting in video...and he was pretty effective sadly.

yes, I also know the Tueller drill and how someone can cross 21 feet (not yards) in the time another person can draw and fire (2-3 seconds)...it's a standard used in courts. That means the shooter has to be that close...and with a rifle, he doesnt need to be.
 
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