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Guns and Germany

RabidAlpaca said:
Nowhere in that blog article is evidence presented that the vast majority of guns in Germany are illegal.
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Under point 2 it says, starting at the second paragraph, "About 2 million people own more than 5.5 million legal guns in Germany for a population of more than 80 million. On top of that, police unions have estimated that there are up to 20 million more illegally-owned guns in Germany - this would mean roughly 30 guns for every group of 100 people."

RabidAlpaca said:
Even if it did, getting rid of the strict gun laws Germany has would just mean even more guns than there already are.
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Not necessarily, although it would definitely mean more legally owned guns then there are.

RabidAlpaca said:
You completely ignore the objective fact that Germany has a fraction of the gun ownership/access of America and subsequently a fraction of the murder rate. You ignore these facts in favor of raw conjecture you can't provide any evidence for.
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Yet Germany has more guns than most other European countries and a much lower gun death rate than most other European countries.

As for the US murder rate being much higher, that can be any other number of factors, for one thing the USA has a much larger population than Germany.
 
DebateChallenge said:
Under point 2 it says, starting at the second paragraph, "About 2 million people own more than 5.5 million legal guns in Germany for a population of more than 80 million. On top of that, police unions have estimated that there are up to 20 million more illegally-owned guns in Germany - this would mean roughly 30 guns for every group of 100 people."
Not necessarily, although it would definitely mean more legally owned guns then there are.
Yet Germany has more guns than most other European countries and a much lower gun death rate than most other European countries.
As for the US murder rate being much higher, that can be any other number of factors, for one thing the USA has a much larger population than Germany.
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That is a blog and it didn't list any sources. No, that is not evidence. Show me some actual evidence. A link to a police union actually saying that would be at least some evidence.

Ahaha, you're seriously trying to argue higher population = higher per capita murder rate? Do you even know what that word means, kid?
 
DebateChallenge said:
You're not making sense, you asked if I wanted to legalize heroin and I said I didn't.
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Oh God. How can you not follow your own argument. I will go thru this with you once.

You said gun laws dont work because lots of people have illegal guns. That is why you don't want those gun laws. I said lots of people have heroin too. You said well we still need to keep that law even though it doesnt work.


Pay attention
 
vegas giants said:
Oh God. How can you not follow your own argument. I will go thru this with you once.

You said gun laws dont work because lots of people have illegal guns. That is why you don't want those gun laws. I said lots of people have heroin too. You said well we still need to keep that law even though it doesnt work.


Pay attention
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There is a difference. There are good reasons to own and use guns, there are no good reasons to own and use heroin. Having stricter laws regarding the acquisition, ownership, and possession of guns is not fair for people who want to own and use guns for good reasons, which is the vast majority of gun owners.
 
DebateChallenge said:
There is a difference. There are good reasons to own and use guns, there are no good reasons to own and use heroin. Having stricter laws regarding the acquisition, ownership, and possession of guns is not fair for people who want to own and use guns for good reasons, which is the vast majority of gun owners.
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There is no good reason to own alcohol.


Your argument fails
 
DebateChallenge said:
There is a difference. There are good reasons to own and use guns, there are no good reasons to own and use heroin. Having stricter laws regarding the acquisition, ownership, and possession of guns is not fair for people who want to own and use guns for good reasons, which is the vast majority of gun owners.
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The governmental units in the USA issue millions of guns to millions of governmental civilian employees.
 
vegas giants said:
There is no good reason to own alcohol.


Your argument fails
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Some people would argue that there is good reason to own and consume alcohol provided its being done responsibly, it helps relax you. I personally don't care much for alcohol but that's what some people would argue.

As for banning alcohol, we already tried that, look up the Prohibition.

Your argument fails.
 
DebateChallenge said:
Some people would argue that there is good reason to own and consume alcohol provided its being done responsibly, it helps relax you. I personally don't care much for alcohol but that's what some people would argue.

As for banning alcohol, we already tried that, look up the Prohibition.

Your argument fails.
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How does my using heroin concern you?


You are a banner
 
vegas giants said:
How does my using heroin concern you?


You are a banner
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It doesn't.

I could really care less whether you use heroin.

I don't use heroin and I have no desire to but if you want to use heroin it doesn't affect my life.
 
DebateChallenge said:
It doesn't.

I could really care less whether you use heroin.

I don't use heroin and I have no desire to but if you want to use heroin it doesn't affect my life.
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I'm done with you. You start a debate and then just abandon your argument. You have nothing
 
Nickyjo said:
No doubt a defensible argument if true and not allowing for other factors. But if you couple the number of guns in the US with the disparities in income, the legacy of racism, the lack of social services compared to Germany you get a different picture. Also, guns, tho maybe plentiful, are controled in Germany. Seems they have 1/20 the rate of gun deaths compared to the US, if I read the chart correctly. Apples and oranges compared to the USA. Gun availability is a factor in our death rate when mixed with others.
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But you said it yourself...its not the primary factor. Thanks!
 
DebateChallenge said:
My uncle could've bought a Ferrari and he lived off of McDonalds wages, as a franchise owner.

I don't know of any countries in Europe where its super hard to get a rifle. The only country I can think of where its super hard to legally get a rifle is Japan where getting a shotgun is hard enough, getting a rifle is near impossible.


The point is, as strict as German gun laws are in comparison to American gun laws, they're not being followed as most of the guns owned in Germany are owned illegally.


In England you can own handguns provided they have a certain barrel length and they meet a certain overall length. What they've banned are "small firearms" which are guns that have under a certain barrel length and overall length. Im not sure what their regulations on flintlocks are.
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Plenty of countries are hard to get a rifle, britain is extremely difficult, france in recent decades has gone full retard on gun control, spain is bad, many others are bad as well. Germany czech and russia are failry lenient on long rifles and shotguns but still require permits, scandinavian countries are also lenient on long rifles and shotguns, outside that range europe makes getting a shotgun or rifle an epic challenge even for hunting or sport shooting.

Outside that in germany you can get a handgun for self defense if you provide the need, in czech handguns for self defense dominate approved permits, while countries like britain and france only permit handguns for sport use under the strictest rules, and britain punishes for using any firearm for self defense.
 
beerftw said:
Plenty of countries are hard to get a rifle, britain is extremely difficult, france in recent decades has gone full retard on gun control, spain is bad, many others are bad as well. Germany czech and russia are failry lenient on long rifles and shotguns but still require permits, scandinavian countries are also lenient on long rifles and shotguns, outside that range europe makes getting a shotgun or rifle an epic challenge even for hunting or sport shooting.

Outside that in germany you can get a handgun for self defense if you provide the need, in czech handguns for self defense dominate approved permits, while countries like britain and france only permit handguns for sport use under the strictest rules, and britain punishes for using any firearm for self defense.
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There is a complete ban on private citizens owning handguns in England. It was due to a collective bed wetting over Dunblane about 22 or so years ago
 
TurtleDude said:
There is a complete ban on private citizens owning handguns in England. It was due to a collective bed wetting over Dunblane about 22 or so years ago
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They technichally can own the there, it is just retarded, They can own cap and ball revolvers on extremely strict terms, and they can get modern england compiant handguns which have a buttstock which kinda makes them a rifle guess that is how they bypassed the ban, either way their options are extremely limited, even for sports and olympic shooters.
 
beerftw said:
They technichally can own the there, it is just retarded, They can own cap and ball revolvers on extremely strict terms, and they can get modern england compiant handguns which have a buttstock which kinda makes them a rifle guess that is how they bypassed the ban, either way their options are extremely limited, even for sports and olympic shooters.
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I know for a fact that their olympic pistol shooters and at one time, their modern Pentathlon athletes, were training at the wolf creek grounds (venue for the 1996 Atlanta games) because they couldn't in England.
 
TurtleDude said:
I know for a fact that their olympic pistol shooters and at one time, their modern Pentathlon athletes, were training at the wolf creek grounds (venue for the 1996 Atlanta games) because they couldn't in England.
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Yes their laws suck, their handguns technichally need to be converted to rifles to not count as handguns, ownership requires permission to the range and is at police discretion, self defense is not allowed anywhere in the uk with a firearm except one city in ireland. They are the example of gun control gone wrong, where getting anything beyond a single shot musket is near impossible unless you have the money to buy your way into it. Atleast germany rusia czech norway etc people have to jump through hoops but it is not a monumental task only accomplished by the richest of society.
 
TurtleDude said:
I know for a fact that their olympic pistol shooters and at one time, their modern Pentathlon athletes, were training at the wolf creek grounds (venue for the 1996 Atlanta games) because they couldn't in England.
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That is true


It comes down to the British government's decision to ban guns by "type" which has meant inventing convoluted legal definitions that lawyers spend days getting rich arguing over in court

The ban on Olympians practicing with their target pistols is a case of the law of unintentional consequences.
 
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