Viability of low firepower antique guns

Caveat: This does not apply to home defense, professional carry or carrying in any situation I anticipate potential danger. For those it is 12 gauge shotguns, 45acp and 30-06 or .308.

Why in my personal activities I now usually carry very low firepower antique pocket guns– and just went smaller...


The passing years and a more sedimentary lifestyle take their toll on physical fighting ability. At one time in the increasingly distant past, there were few people on this planet who could win an unarmed fight with me. But I recognize increasingly I am slower, weaker, less flexible, less focused and less wired for a physical fight. In short, increasingly vulnerable and less able to defend others.


Yet I also recognized I truly don't want to kill anyone unless a true necessity. Simply, I do not subscribe to the rule of always shoot-to-kill. Added to this is my opinion that merely displaying having a firearm will defuse nearly any situation – while also recognizing the instant legal jeopardy the moment you display a firearm. Merely displaying having a firearm to frighten someone off is a felony unless you can prove valid reason for doing so as an affirmative defense. Among other things, this concern can lead to fatal hesitation.


Simply, my goal of routine personal low-risk situation carry is:
1. Minimize legal jeopardy – both having the gun and displaying the gun
2. To SUPPLEMENT my declining physical fighting ability.
3. To literally be able to have a gun in my hand without legal jeopardy.


From my past experiences and what is known, an assailant(s) doesn't give warning. A violent attack often will come with no warning whatsoever and happen incredibly fast – though usually you can sense a dangerous person or setting. What this means in real terms is you would not have time to go for a CCW. In addition, if someone already has a gun on me, I certainly would not try to quick-draw. In short, with any sensing of danger I want the gun in my hand, not pocket or holster.


That means “antique”gun in this state. In Florida, an antique gun is exempt from all gun laws UNLESS the gun is used to commit a crime. While this specifically applied to antique cap-and-ball (and flintlock), it also applies to any firearm made before 1918 that ammo is not manufactured for (the ammo rule bars basically all semi-autos, .22s, .25s etc).




I saw this at a flea market a couple weeks ago. Wasn't looking for anything like this, but at this condition and for the price? It was a steal. It is an as-new 1889 to 1893 no-serial number (only “batch” number) Remington .41 rimfire super short derringer with a full box of black powder live nickle casings and copper coated vintage cartridge ammo (SUPER rare).Although a .41, being a super short it is very low firepower – only 100 pounds ft-lbs at 600 ft/sec. Enough to penetrate. Nothing more.For comparison, a 9mm FMJ comes in at 350 to 400 ft-lbs – 350-400%more impact power.

So why such a low firepower pocket gun?


1. Other than aircraft, courthouses or other places they metal scan, it can be legally taken anywhere guns are prohibited - and is completely a “non-firearm” under Florida state law, particularly since it fires ammo that hasn't been made in decades.
2. It is a gun – with all the fear-factors of it. Only a lunatic would see twin 41 caliber barrels and not back off.
3. I can have it in my hand at a sense of danger – small enough so no one sees it unless I want the person to (I have big hands).
4. It is to supplement my declining fighting ability. Shooting someone with it is unlikely to be a kill-shot. But even if not chasing the person off it will reduce their fighting ability and is a huge distraction. (Most fights I was in were decided in the first few seconds because I know how to strike a person in disability ways).
5. I really don't want to kill anyone. Very much so.
6. It's really cool, I like these old all-steel guns. They have a good, solid feel.

The instant availability of the firearm (in hand) plus not having to decide if it is legal to have it seems more important than a far more powerful with more bullets handgun in my pocket or a holster under a jacket. In addition, once you go for your holstered gun you become a 1 arm defender losing your strong arm for blocking defense. If the gun is already in my hand I can still block a knife or blow with that arm.

My opinions on this are based on extensive past RL fighting experiences plus some study and thought of what really happened just before and during an assault. Nearly all are crimes of opportunity. A big guy with a little gun in his hand isn't seen as an easy target. ANYONE holding ANY firearm will not be seen as an easy victim - so these seem particularly ideal for women and old people. Attacking an old person seems easy - unless you see the old person is holding a gun, no? I doubt the would-be attacker is calculating the quality of the firearm.

Real life example: A lawyer I know, single at the time, went to a trendy area with multiple bars – a hot night spot. He had to park blocks away in a parking lot under an overpass. A bum approached him asking for money. When he said no, the bum stabbed him in the lower gut – severing his colon. Fortunately, he was only stabbed once, they could save his life and his colon. But had the stab been 7 inches higher it would have severed his aorta – him dead within 2 to 3 minutes unable to save.

1. A .380 or 9mm in a holster would not have stopped being stabbed, even if he could draw fire and kill the attacker.
2. He couldn't have a CCW .380, 9mm or any other modern gun anyway because he was going into bars – meaning illegal to have a firearm.

With such as this derringer, he could have it in his hand – yet alarming no one unless he made it visible. In the unlikely chance of being frisked by police he MIGHT still get arrested, but the charge would ultimately be dismissed upon vintage documentation as it is antique exempt.

If he had this old pocket .41 derringer, he could have told the bum/potential robber/attacker approaching with: “No spare change. What I have is the 41 caliber derringer (showing it).” The odds that bum/criminal would have continued his approach? Likely none.

Another plus is for the OUTRAGEOUS absurdity that 18 to 20 year olds can not legally own a handgun – turning colleges into rape centers. However, such as my daughter could carry an 1897 double action, 5 shot S&W .38 short stub nose revolver. Why? “Not a gun” under state law. (Mostly federal law exempt too).

Would 5 black powder cartridge .38 shorts stop an attacker? Maybe, maybe not. But if hit 3 to 5 times he might not be quite as interested in rape or kidnapping. Even if she is stabbed or shot – at least the attacker will be fleeing and she can hope help gets her to the hospital in time. We teach our children to do anything – ANYTHING – to not be kidnapped even if that means getting shot or stabbed. We even drill them on it. Knife to the throat – still scream and fight. Gun in their face, run screaming anyway. NEVER be kidnapped in a vehicle or taken by foot to a remote area. ANYTHING to NOT be taken. At least they still have a chance even if shot or cut. If taken off to a remote area? They don't have a chance. If a person will kill them in public, the person certainly would do so in private – and maybe very slowly and horrifically.

Same for restraints. If being robbed, give up whatever he/they want. But if they want to tie up or restrain you, fight even against impossible odds. That's my view anyway. If I am to be murdered, I prefer it be done quickly.

Even the earlier single shot .41 super short derringer is still viable. Saved a cop's life - using that tiny and old a .41 rimshot super short as his shoe backup:

Notice the officer used it as I mentioned - a direct contact firearm.
A .41 Derringer Barks Again - True West Magazine



I bought this for $50 - a cap and ball 45 caliber. "Antique" by every legal measure in Florida and federal. Deadly? Absolutely.

Of course, a person also could have their CCW in a holster, purse or pocket too. The goal? A LEGAL firearm of MINIMAL legal jeopardy IN MY HAND before it is clear whether I'm under attack or not. That delay - waiting until you are already being attacked - is what could get a person killed.

joko104 said:

Caveat: This does not apply to home defense, professional carry or carrying in any situation I anticipate potential danger. For those it is 12 gauge shotguns, 45acp and 30-06 or .308.

Why in my personal activities I now usually carry very low firepower antique pocket guns– and just went smaller...


The passing years and a more sedimentary lifestyle take their toll on physical fighting ability. At one time in the increasingly distant past, there were few people on this planet who could win an unarmed fight with me. But I recognize increasingly I am slower, weaker, less flexible, less focused and less wired for a physical fight. In short, increasingly vulnerable and less able to defend others.


Yet I also recognized I truly don't want to kill anyone unless a true necessity. Simply, I do not subscribe to the rule of always shoot-to-kill. Added to this is my opinion that merely displaying having a firearm will defuse nearly any situation – while also recognizing the instant legal jeopardy the moment you display a firearm. Merely displaying having a firearm to frighten someone off is a felony unless you can prove valid reason for doing so as an affirmative defense. Among other things, this concern can lead to fatal hesitation.


Simply, my goal of routine personal low-risk situation carry is:
1. Minimize legal jeopardy – both having the gun and displaying the gun
2. To SUPPLEMENT my declining physical fighting ability.
3. To literally be able to have a gun in my hand without legal jeopardy.


From my past experiences and what is known, an assailant(s) doesn't give warning. A violent attack often will come with no warning whatsoever and happen incredibly fast – though usually you can sense a dangerous person or setting. What this means in real terms is you would not have time to go for a CCW. In addition, if someone already has a gun on me, I certainly would not try to quick-draw. In short, with any sensing of danger I want the gun in my hand, not pocket or holster.


That means “antique”gun in this state. In Florida, an antique gun is exempt from all gun laws UNLESS the gun is used to commit a crime. While this specifically applied to antique cap-and-ball (and flintlock), it also applies to any firearm made before 1918 that ammo is not manufactured for (the ammo rule bars basically all semi-autos, .22s, .25s etc).

I saw this at a flea market a couple weeks ago. Wasn't looking for anything like this, but at this condition and for the price? It was a steal. It is an as-new 1889 to 1893 no-serial number (only “batch” number) Remington .41 rimfire super short derringer with a full box of black powder live nickle casings and copper coated vintage cartridge ammo (SUPER rare).Although a .41, being a super short it is very low firepower – only 100 pounds ft-lbs at 600 ft/sec. Enough to penetrate. Nothing more.For comparison, a 9mm FMJ comes in at 350 to 400 ft-lbs – 350-400%more impact power.

So why such a low firepower pocket gun?


1. Other than aircraft, courthouses or other places they metal scan, it can be legally taken anywhere guns are prohibited - and is completely a “non-firearm” under Florida state law, particularly since it fires ammo that hasn't been made in decades.
2. It is a gun – with all the fear-factors of it. Only a lunatic would see twin 41 caliber barrels and not back off.
3. I can have it in my hand at a sense of danger – small enough so no one sees it unless I want the person to (I have big hands).
4. It is to supplement my declining fighting ability. Shooting someone with it is unlikely to be a kill-shot. But even if not chasing the person off it will reduce their fighting ability and is a huge distraction. (Most fights I was in were decided in the first few seconds because I know how to strike a person in disability ways).
5. I really don't want to kill anyone. Very much so.
6. It's really cool, I like these old all-steel guns. They have a good, solid feel.

Click to expand...

Situational awareness and threat assessments are as important as be strapped.

Sheep No More: The Art of Awareness and Attack Survival Sheep No More: The Art of Awareness and Attack Survival - Google Search

Summary - in my opinion, in most potential situations a low firepower gun in your hand is far more valuable than a high firepower gun in a holster, pocket or purse - particularly in avoiding the conflict from the start. Antique firearms (in some states) can be branished with far less liability than a modern firearm.

Once a would-be assailant is within 20 feet or so, if he charges you it will not be possible for you to clear your firearm before he reaches you - and while going for your gun you only have your weak arm to block a knife, other impact/cutting weapon or even his fist.

In my estimation, in MOST real life circumstances, having ANY firearm in hand is better than any firearm in a holster, purse or pocket.

Note: Little of this applies to law enforcement because law enforcement is required to go into trouble situations and to be close to people who are known to possibly be dangerous.

apdst said:

Situational awareness and threat assessments are as important as be strapped.

Sheep No More: The Art of Awareness and Attack Survival Sheep No More: The Art of Awareness and Attack Survival - Google Search

Click to expand...

Absolutely.

One thing that gets people hurt is trying to be polite. A bum is approaching or someone feels like they are being followed to her car. Although afraid, to not be rude she neither runs nor screams.

I am very rude to approaching bums. I don't wait for them to speak. I just roar out "NO! GET AWAY FROM ME!" while he/they are still way off. There are 7 billion people. What the hell do I care what a stranger thinks of me? The same on dangerous settings. Pull into a C-store for gas at night with a couple of bums at the corner of the building and the parking lot otherwise empty? Won't stop.

Fortunately, my past conditioned me to be highly aware of who and what is around me. Ideally, the goal is to avoid dangerous situations to begin with - and react immediately when sensing danger. Being right 99.99% of the time isn't good enough.

I am not alone in my reasoning. Antique derringers in .41 black powder rimfire - including the single shot - are skyrocketing in prices, while once considered junk guns. Spending $1000 for a decent late 1800s single shot .41 derringer now is the norm if in decent condition. Even in poor but working condition figure $500 and up.

However, cap-and-ball pocket derringers (single shot) are dirt cheap generally. For example, I have a matched set of vintage (mid 1800s) 45 caliber cap and ball "muff" guns (similar to what I pictures only more finely finished) - for women to have one in each hand under hand a hand muff. To this day, a woman with 2 of those - one in each hand - definitely is not defenseless. For close quarter defense, cap and ball pistols are seriously under rated. They were deadly then. They are deadly now.

If you honestly believe that "merely displaying having a firearm will defuse nearly any situation," then just carry a fake gun.

Tlrmln said:

If you honestly believe that "merely displaying having a firearm will defuse nearly any situation," then just carry a fake gun.

Click to expand...

Because of "nearly any" in your sentence. There are liabilities with a fake gun in terms of criminal laws. Again, this depends upon each state. Since I would not wrongly kill someone for the sake of killing, having a fake gun would no sense. If I fired it would only be because it necessary to do so.

Regardless, I do not discount in my statements the possibility of needing to shot the assailant. If so, I prefer that sufficiently ended the assault or meant I could defend better against it - with a significantly reduced likelihood of killing the person, for which this would only likely be with the 2nd shot as a last-chance to survive necessity.

Simply, I reject both the concept of deliberately being defenseless and unable to realistically offer defense of others without some minimizing risks, I also reject that it is a choice between the 2 extreme opposite views of picking between being defenseless and killing the other person.

joko104 said:

with a significantly reduced likelihood of killing the person

Click to expand...

The more you reduce the likelihood of killing the person, the more you reduce the likelihood that you will end the assault.

joko104 said:

Caveat: This does not apply to home defense, professional carry or carrying in any situation I anticipate potential danger. For those it is 12 gauge shotguns, 45acp and 30-06 or .308.

Why in my personal activities I now usually carry very low firepower antique pocket guns– and just went smaller...


The passing years and a more sedimentary lifestyle take their toll on physical fighting ability. At one time in the increasingly distant past, there were few people on this planet who could win an unarmed fight with me. But I recognize increasingly I am slower, weaker, less flexible, less focused and less wired for a physical fight. In short, increasingly vulnerable and less able to defend others.


Yet I also recognized I truly don't want to kill anyone unless a true necessity. Simply, I do not subscribe to the rule of always shoot-to-kill. Added to this is my opinion that merely displaying having a firearm will defuse nearly any situation – while also recognizing the instant legal jeopardy the moment you display a firearm. Merely displaying having a firearm to frighten someone off is a felony unless you can prove valid reason for doing so as an affirmative defense. Among other things, this concern can lead to fatal hesitation.


Simply, my goal of routine personal low-risk situation carry is:
1. Minimize legal jeopardy – both having the gun and displaying the gun
2. To SUPPLEMENT my declining physical fighting ability.
3. To literally be able to have a gun in my hand without legal jeopardy.


From my past experiences and what is known, an assailant(s) doesn't give warning. A violent attack often will come with no warning whatsoever and happen incredibly fast – though usually you can sense a dangerous person or setting. What this means in real terms is you would not have time to go for a CCW. In addition, if someone already has a gun on me, I certainly would not try to quick-draw. In short, with any sensing of danger I want the gun in my hand, not pocket or holster.


That means “antique”gun in this state. In Florida, an antique gun is exempt from all gun laws UNLESS the gun is used to commit a crime. While this specifically applied to antique cap-and-ball (and flintlock), it also applies to any firearm made before 1918 that ammo is not manufactured for (the ammo rule bars basically all semi-autos, .22s, .25s etc).

I saw this at a flea market a couple weeks ago. Wasn't looking for anything like this, but at this condition and for the price? It was a steal. It is an as-new 1889 to 1893 no-serial number (only “batch” number) Remington .41 rimfire super short derringer with a full box of black powder live nickle casings and copper coated vintage cartridge ammo (SUPER rare).Although a .41, being a super short it is very low firepower – only 100 pounds ft-lbs at 600 ft/sec. Enough to penetrate. Nothing more.For comparison, a 9mm FMJ comes in at 350 to 400 ft-lbs – 350-400%more impact power.

So why such a low firepower pocket gun?


1. Other than aircraft, courthouses or other places they metal scan, it can be legally taken anywhere guns are prohibited - and is completely a “non-firearm” under Florida state law, particularly since it fires ammo that hasn't been made in decades.
2. It is a gun – with all the fear-factors of it. Only a lunatic would see twin 41 caliber barrels and not back off.
3. I can have it in my hand at a sense of danger – small enough so no one sees it unless I want the person to (I have big hands).
4. It is to supplement my declining fighting ability. Shooting someone with it is unlikely to be a kill-shot. But even if not chasing the person off it will reduce their fighting ability and is a huge distraction. (Most fights I was in were decided in the first few seconds because I know how to strike a person in disability ways).
5. I really don't want to kill anyone. Very much so.
6. It's really cool, I like these old all-steel guns. They have a good, solid feel.

Click to expand...

Just today I bought myself a lever action Henry and a matching single action Long Colt. 1880s technology. Yet there is no doubt that if the Leftist Democrats ever obtain total power their KGB/Gaspato will be at my door ready to confiscate.

Casca XV said:

Just today I bought myself a lever action Henry and a matching single action Long Colt. 1880s technology. Yet there is no doubt that if the Leftist Democrats ever obtain total power their KGB/Gaspato will be at my door ready to confiscate.

Click to expand...

Nice.

Of old rifles I have a Winchester 30-30, Springfield 50-70 (much rarer than the later 45-70) complete with bayonet, the same for the same rifle used in the British battles with the Zulus including the sword bayonet. I have 2 pre-1899 double action 38-long civilian army swing out chambers revolver. Lots of 1890s pocket revolvers. All are still extremely viable firearms.

Have some very fine and rare cap and ball revolvers and then prior muzzleloaders. All different types. Mostly handguns. The rarest is a full size iron English blunderbuss with the Birmingham crest of quality assurance - not one of those narrow brass barrel blunderbusses. Now there's a gun! LOL

Guns of the past (prior to early 1900s) held a particular fear factor less relevant today. Any gunshot wound, even minor by today's standards, was highly lethal. The medical technology did not exist. Surgery could more endanger you than not as practices were the antithesis of sterile. There were no antibiotics. Any wound that penetrated intestines was considered always lethal even in our military. Shooting someone in the stomach was considered exceptionally cruel - as it assured the person would die a slow horrible death across days or even a couple of weeks.

Thus, ANY gun that could penetrate carried a fear factor. In the early and mid 1800s, extremely low power and tiny bullets became popular for defense such as .22 and .25. Disguise single shot tiny guns could be as small as 3mm caliber. While people could survive gunshot wounds, sometimes this was by leaving the bullet inside the person and just letting the wound heal, trying to keep it clean.

The majority of guns were for working people, so extremely simple, cheap designs - like the .32 caliber 4 and 5 shot pepperbox cap and ball guns. Curiously double action. Short barrels all in the cylinder itself. Didn't even have a gun sight. Very close range only - but at least not unarmed. Small enough for a workman's pocket. All a working man could afford.

Americans used to be much more heavily armed statistically than now. Pocket guns of all types and sizes were always extremely popular across the decades. Most were very simplistic and cheap. So working people could afford them. Most could not afford nor would want a full size frame long barrel Colt or Remington .44 or .36 revolver. Some pocket guns were exceptionally finely made or engraved.

Many models of pocket guns were specifically for women - and accordingly smaller guns. In the mid to late 1850s thru well into the 1900s, .38 pocket guns were the man's gun, and .32 for women. Shaved triggers were considered lady's guns - to avoid snagging on her clothing. Police were few and far between. Defend yourself from muggers, ruffians and robbers.

Casca XV said:

Just today I bought myself a lever action Henry and a matching single action Long Colt. 1880s technology. Yet there is no doubt that if the Leftist Democrats ever obtain total power their KGB/Gaspato will be at my door ready to confiscate.

Click to expand...

PS. The Long Colt is a serious cartridge. What caliber Henry?

No trigger guard = no thank you.

I shot a black powder gun this week, was pretty interesting. I don't know if this is entirely relevant to the conversation, but yeah.

Tlrmln said:

The more you reduce the likelihood of killing the person, the more you reduce the likelihood that you will end the assault.

Click to expand...

Show your fake gun? Do you mean antique pocket gun or semi auto? How about the person attacking gives you a great big fu** you and your gun. In other words guts you then robs you,or you just go all meek and sheep and let him rob you then gut you? joko is on the money.

zsu2357 said:

Show your fake gun? Do you mean antique pocket gun or semi auto? How about the person attacking gives you a great big fu** you and your gun. In other words guts you then robs you,or you just go all meek and sheep and let him rob you then gut you? joko is on the money.

Click to expand...

That's a big what-if, given joko's claim that, most of the time, merely showing the gun is enough.

What if joko misses, or the shots from his peashooter aren't enough to stop the attacker from gutting joko?

Or what if the attacker has a gun, and shoots joko before joko can get a shot off?

Antique firearms are quite deadly and viable, they just simply lack simplicity like modern firearms. For example a cap and ball revolver requires you to manually load each cylinder, understand lead shavings are good to prevent chain fire, and lube each cylinder manually. Even other later cartridge guns are not simple, they may be simple to fire, but required strict cleaning, and often timing of hands adjusting bolts etc depending on the type of gun, many old pre 1899 guns were never designed to fire a crapton with no maintenance, but rather to last a lifetime but with constant maintenance and adjustment by a gunsmith or an owner trained enough in gunsmithing.

Tlrmln said:

That's a big what-if, given joko's claim that, most of the time, merely showing the gun is enough.

What if joko misses, or the shots from his peashooter aren't enough to stop the attacker from gutting joko?

Or what if the attacker has a gun, and shoots joko before joko can get a shot off?

Click to expand...

Shots from even a 22 short from the cowboy days which was known for bouncing off skulls are still deadly enough, you ask hypotheticals but those same hypotheticals hold true even holding the most modern or powerful guns. Shot placement and accuracy are key over anything else, you can have a smith and wesson .500 and it would do zero good if you could not hit your target in a viable location.

nekrodev said:

I shot a black powder gun this week, was pretty interesting. I don't know if this is entirely relevant to the conversation, but yeah.

Click to expand...

Try shooting some more, well first get the basic research down because bp is safe if done right but is not user friendly like preloaded smokeless carts. The best part of blackpwder is that for many non cartridge guns the ammo powder caps flints etc are way cheaper than preloaded carts, meaning you can shoot all day for very cheap, it is very fun if you just want some range fun on a budget.

joko104 said:

Guns of the past (prior to early 1900s) held a particular fear factor less relevant today. Any gunshot wound, even minor by today's standards, was highly lethal. The medical technology did not exist. Surgery could more endanger you than not as practices were the antithesis of sterile. There were no antibiotics. Any wound that penetrated intestines was considered always lethal even in our military. Shooting someone in the stomach was considered exceptionally cruel - as it assured the person would die a slow horrible death across days or even a couple of weeks.

Thus, ANY gun that could penetrate carried a fear factor. In the early and mid 1800s, extremely low power and tiny bullets became popular for defense such as .22 and .25. Disguise single shot tiny guns could be as small as 3mm caliber. While people could survive gunshot wounds, sometimes this was by leaving the bullet inside the person and just letting the wound heal, trying to keep it clean.

The majority of guns were for working people, so extremely simple, cheap designs - like the .32 caliber 4 and 5 shot pepperbox cap and ball guns. Curiously double action. Short barrels all in the cylinder itself. Didn't even have a gun sight. Very close range only - but at least not unarmed. Small enough for a workman's pocket. All a working man could afford.

Americans used to be much more heavily armed statistically than now. Pocket guns of all types and sizes were always extremely popular across the decades. Most were very simplistic and cheap. So working people could afford them. Most could not afford nor would want a full size frame long barrel Colt or Remington .44 or .36 revolver. Some pocket guns were exceptionally finely made or engraved.

Many models of pocket guns were specifically for women - and accordingly smaller guns. In the mid to late 1850s thru well into the 1900s, .38 pocket guns were the man's gun, and .32 for women. Shaved triggers were considered lady's guns - to avoid snagging on her clothing. Police were few and far between. Defend yourself from muggers, ruffians and robbers.

Click to expand...

The bolded is not quite true, both men and women widely used the .32 and .38, both were considered self defense rounds used in concealed guns. The idea was at the time many towns banned any firearms in city limits, this meant for self defense guns had to be concealed and not in the open. Most of those small caliber revolvers and derringers only saw a few rounds at the range then were never used after, as they were kept as concealed self defense.

Many bigger rounds were often carried in the cowboy days, however there is a misconception too about this, they carried them but shootouts in the wild west were actually rare, and when they did happen most of the time they were with rifles or shotguns. The average cowboy carried guns like the .45 colt because of the terrain they dealt with, more often bears badgers coyotes wolfs wild boars etc were their biggest threat not other men, while in cities especially with laws banning possession within city limits other men were the biggest concern hence they pushed for concealable tiny guns they could carry without being harrassed.

beerftw said:

Antique firearms are quite deadly and viable, they just simply lack simplicity like modern firearms. For example a cap and ball revolver requires you to manually load each cylinder, understand lead shavings are good to prevent chain fire, and lube each cylinder manually. Even other later cartridge guns are not simple, they may be simple to fire, but required strict cleaning, and often timing of hands adjusting bolts etc depending on the type of gun, many old pre 1899 guns were never designed to fire a crapton with no maintenance, but rather to last a lifetime but with constant maintenance and adjustment by a gunsmith or an owner trained enough in gunsmithing.

Click to expand...

There is also the problem that moisture permanently destroys black powder - but will not do so to modern powder. Moisture (water) chemically alters black powder, so in high humidity (such as in Florida) black powder (whether cartridges or muzzleloading) causes the black powder load to be totally worthless or weakened. Of course, there is no way to test this. So if your black powder firearm has been sitting loaded for a period of time, it may not fire or fire sufficiently. This is a real issue with black powder cartridges, cap and ball etc.

beerftw said:

The bolded is not quite true, both men and women widely used the .32 and .38, both were considered self defense rounds used in concealed guns. The idea was at the time many towns banned any firearms in city limits, this meant for self defense guns had to be concealed and not in the open. Most of those small caliber revolvers and derringers only saw a few rounds at the range then were never used after, as they were kept as concealed self defense.

Many bigger rounds were often carried in the cowboy days, however there is a misconception too about this, they carried them but shootouts in the wild west were actually rare, and when they did happen most of the time they were with rifles or shotguns. The average cowboy carried guns like the .45 colt because of the terrain they dealt with, more often bears badgers coyotes wolfs wild boars etc were their biggest threat not other men, while in cities especially with laws banning possession within city limits other men were the biggest concern hence they pushed for concealable tiny guns they could carry without being harrassed.

Click to expand...

Curious that in the past many towns did outlaw having any firearm in public.

Pocket guns date back to the beginning with flintlock single shot pistols - usually around 44 to 45 caliber. The invention of firing caps allowed reducing the size of pocket guns significantly. President Lincoln was killed by a 44 cap and ball pocket pistol:


Even though a .44, the short barrel and being black powder, while it did penetrate the skull and cause lethal injury, Lincoln did not die right away - which would be the result of being shot point-blank with a modern .44 round or even out of a longer barrel .44 pistol. Barrel length matters greatly for black powder for how slow it burns compared to modern powder.

The firing cap design was one of the most significant developments in firearms history. Even modern cartridges generally use a firing cap (center cap in bullets). The design not only made firearms all-weather and more reliable, it also then allowed developing multiple barrel repeating pistols - including pocket pistols. Some were extremely small caliber as disguised guns. A particularly popular personal pocket gun was the pepperbox. This one is typical - a 6 shot (double action). This was a costly one. Most would only have 4 to 5 barrels and no engraving. .32 was the most common caliber, but it varied.


It has no aiming sights whatsoever and most were not engraved. They were as inexpensively made as possible and were only a close range point and shoot. Working men couldn't afford a Colt 44 or other finer revolvers. Most were not engraved with nothing fancy - and hundreds of small shops made cheap single shot pistols - small and large.
Even smaller single shot cap and ball pocket, boot and purse guns became extremely popular - including for women. Again, most were as inexpensively made as possible as the majority of people could not afford fine firearms. The lack of modern medical care and antibotics made all guns terrifying and highly lethal.

For antique firearms make certain there is available ammo for it. There are beautiful pin fire pistols and fantastic Swiss rifles - civilian and military - but no ammo possible. Even for my .44 super short I have ordered a kit to make new ammo that uses a typical .22 firing cap.
Center fire is particularly challenging as reloading a center fire cartridge is unreliable at best.