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Handgun 'stopping power' is a myth.

Casper said:
I would far rather be shot by a 22 LR than a 44 mag. Had an old TV we shot up on my range for fun, my 44 was the only one that knocked it of the log. Fun to shoot at night, flames coming out the barrel is way cool. Sorry but size Does matter, the rest is very important but the facts are the facts.
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The video, and thus this thread, is not about .22 or 44mag. Your comment is off-topic.
 
Wayne Jr said:
Training is the most important element of your firearms strategy. Shot placement is everything. The caliber you use...not so much. I welcome your thoughts on the topic.

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Caliber definitely plays a role, but it is certainly not the only consideration. The size of the cartridge is just as important as the caliber. There is a huge difference between the stopping power of an M1911 .45 ACP, for example, and a Remington .458 Win. Mag. They may have similar calibers, but one is capable of 5,400 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle while the other has less than a tenth of that energy.

While I agree that shot placement is very important, it is not "everything." As a general rule, the smaller the caliber or size of the cartridge the more accurate one needs to be. It is also the only form of gun control that I fully support. With larger rounds (in both caliber and cartridge size) you don't need to be as accurate. If you are shooting a target with a .65 caliber slug from a shotgun you can afford to be off target slightly and still get the desired result.
 
Glitch said:
Caliber definitely plays a role, but it is certainly not the only consideration. The size of the cartridge is just as important as the caliber. There is a huge difference between the stopping power of an M1911 .45 ACP, for example, and a Remington .458 Win. Mag. They may have similar calibers, but one is capable of 5,400 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle while the other has less than a tenth of that energy.

While I agree that shot placement is very important, it is not "everything." As a general rule, the smaller the caliber or size of the cartridge the more accurate one needs to be. It is also the only form of gun control that I fully support. With larger rounds (in both caliber and cartridge size) you don't need to be as accurate. If you are shooting a target with a .65 caliber slug from a shotgun you can afford to be off target slightly and still get the desired result.
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So you didn't even watch the video.

People who've watched the video don't make those arguments, because those items are addressed in the video, which makes it's own specific point, a point which does not dismiss caliber outright.
 
Wayne Jr said:
So you didn't even watch the video.

People who've watched the video don't make those arguments, because those items are addressed in the video, which makes it's own specific point, a point which does not dismiss caliber outright.
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Nope, I don't watch videos on YouTube. I don't use Google, Facebook, or Twitter either.
 
Glitch said:
Nope, I don't watch videos on YouTube. I don't use Google, Facebook, or Twitter either.
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Then I'm afraid you won't be able to compose meaningful posts in this thread.
 
Wayne Jr said:
Then I'm afraid you won't be able to compose meaningful posts in this thread.
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Awww......you cant control the conversation and stovepipe it in the direction you want; how sad for you. :(
 
Glitch said:
Your thread is Google dependent? How very odd. Consider other sources.
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The video is from YouTube, not Google. It makes a specific point, and it's that specific point which is the topic.
 
Glitch said:
Google owns YouTube. They are the same company, and why I will never use them.
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Ok, well, have fun with that I guess.
 
I do not agree with the video. People have been shot with a .22 and not known it. I seriously doubt anyone has been hit with a 45 acp or .44 magnum hollow point and didn't know they had been shot. It isn't just about how fast a shot kills, but it's deterrence, and how disabling and distracting it is. If hit in the right lung thru a rib by a 45acp the person is less likely shooting as accurately than if hit with a .32 short. If hit in the arm by a .44 magnum that person probably won't be as good in an attacking knife attack than by a .380. Even how loud the blast sound coming at the attacker is can be a factor.

He disregards clothing penetration capability, the ability to break or break thru bones, whether the person's spine is damaged or not - and how much, whether the round can penetrate a skull, the size of the hole ripped in a person's aorta or throat, whether a bone joint is shattered to unusable, how quickly a heart stops functioning to unconsciousness, how fast the person bleeds out etc.

He also asserts that all defensive usage of a firearm outcome is based upon how fast the person can draw and shoot accurately. He is completely wrong. Police who are shot and killed in active shooter surprise situations has been extensively studied - with these increasingly on video. What they found is IF the officer under fire first responds by running away from the shooter towards shelter such as his cruiser, he is overwhelmingly more likely to live than if his first response is to go for his gun to return fire - being a closer and stationary target.

In my opinion, the closer the attacker or shooter, the larger the caliber. As the distance increases, more bullets fired faster accurately matters. So against an attacker with a knife at 10 feet ideally I'd have a bulldog 44 magnum or 45acp with hollow point shredders. However, at 50 feet a double stack 9mm makes more sense.
 
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Wayne Jr said:
The video, and thus this thread, is not about .22 or 44mag. Your comment is off-topic.
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The video picture shows from .380 hardball (9mm short and usually from a very short barrel) to the heaviest hitter being a hollow point 45 acp. He claims they all have basically the same "stopping power," though doesn't define "stopping" in his analysis. Rather, he claims Hollywood showing people thrown violently back is fiction - which is accurate - but then makes his entire case upon that premise.

For a person wearing heavy winter, but also loose fitting clothes, a .380 short hollow point may no longer be able to penetrate the center chest bone, nor capable of penetrating a skull with an angular hit. Not only does the caliber matter, so does the type of bullet and velocity - also bringing into play barrel length for sighting and velocity - offset by concealability.
 
joko104 said:
The video picture shows from .380 hardball (9mm short and usually from a very short barrel) to the heaviest hitter being a hollow point 45 acp. He claims they all have basically the same "stopping power," though doesn't define "stopping" in his analysis. Rather, he claims Hollywood showing people thrown violently back is fiction - which is accurate - but then makes his entire case upon that premise.

For a person wearing heavy winter, but also loose fitting clothes, a .380 short hollow point may no longer be able to penetrate the center chest bone, nor capable of penetrating a skull with an angular hit. Not only does the caliber matter, so does the type of bullet and velocity - also bringing into play barrel length for sighting and velocity - offset by concealability.
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a back up play is shooting at the pelvis if the first two shots don't put someone down
 
TurtleDude said:
a back up play is shooting at the pelvis if the first two shots don't put someone down
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I read somewhere that in WW2, German snipers shot-to-kill, while Russian snipers aimed for the pelvis. With a rifle round, the damage is so massive in a shattered pelvis that German likely won't live in the long run. Germans tried to rescue downed soldiers - meaning a chance to get another one rescuing the one shot in the pelvis screaming for help. Even if the wounded soldier somehow survive, that soldier is permanently out of the fight, his screaming in pain carried a fear factor to other German troops, and caring for that massively wounded soldier consumed a great deal of German resources and personnel.

I've mentioned before I load alternating with hard ball for penetration and hollow point shredders for maximum muscle and tissue damage. A hardball likely could shatter a pelvis. An ordinary load hollow point might not - depending on velocity, mass and shape of the bullet.
 
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joko104 said:
I read somewhere that in WW2, German snipers shot-to-kill, while Russian snipers aimed for the pelvis. With a rifle round, the damage is so massive in a shattered pelvis that German likely won't live in the long run. Germans tried to rescue downed soldiers - meaning a chance to get another one rescuing the one shot in the pelvis screaming for help. Even if the wounded soldier somehow survive, that soldier is permanently out of the fight, his screaming in pain carried a fear factor to other German troops, and caring for that massively wounded soldier consumed a great deal of German resources and personnel.

I've mentioned before I load alternating with hard ball for penetration and hollow point shredders for maximum muscle and tissue damage. A hardball likely could shatter a pelvis. An ordinary load hollow point might not - depending on velocity, mass and shape of the bullet.
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I have standard FBI loads in my CZSPO1 in my bedroom. I shoot weekly-high stress speed events. I am very very fast. I shoot in the master class and do well against 25 year old professional shooters. I am confident of my accuracy. But your plan makes sense. I teach people to keep shooting until the threat is stopped. Now if there are multiple attackers, the issue becomes-hit each once or twice or put down the closest to you. There is no perfect answer. But moving while shooting is always a good idea unless you are behind solid cover.
 
While .25s and .22 shorts seem to have little lethal ability, they have a trait that adds a unique lethality. The bullets travel slow and have little mass. As a result, the more will follow the path of least resistance rather than a straight path - meaning the softest tissue. Unfortunately, vital organs are the softest tissue. Where the bullet ends up my be in a completely different area of the torso.

If a person is shot 5 times in the torso by a 9mm, medical personnel have a good idea the path of damage and where the bullet is if no exit wound. But if by a .22 short, the path could range from going to a lung, liver, heart, gut and thru veins anywhere. As a result, the person with the 9mm wounds may more likely live due to for apparent necessary medical treatment. Stopping power and killing power are not the same thing.

In short, the Saturday night special cheapest of all handgun calibers do kill, but often by the person bleeding out before the bullet can be found and the trail of damage gotten under control.
 
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joko104 said:
While .25s and .22 shorts seem to have little lethal ability, they have a trait that adds a unique lethality. The bullets travel slow and have little mass. As a result, the more will follow the path of least resistance rather than a straight path - meaning the softest tissue. Unfortunately, vital organs are the softest tissue. Where the bullet ends up my be in a completely different area of the torso.

In short, the Saturday night special cheapest of all handgun calibers do kill, but often by the person bleeding out before the bullet can be found and the trail of damage gotten under control.
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true dat
 
Wayne Jr said:
My revolver is in 327federal, and I didn't pick it for it's caliber, but for it being a 6-shot j-frame. I don't own a .22 or a 357, so there wouldn't be a choice.
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Your failure to answer the question is telling.
 
Don't know about Russian snipers, but surplus 7.62 x 54R was so cheap, I used to see how fast I could shoot 5 rounds in a kneeling stance and still hit the paper at 100 yards with my old Mosin Nagant 91/30. Got pretty good at it, but I would have to gun oil the rounds or the damn bolt would stiffen up pretty bad. Damn steel cased Romanian ammo.
Guess the other guys at the outdoor range thought I was pretty noisy. ;)
 
PoS said:
Well the .45 ACP is still in use by police SWAT and special forces and its never gone away. The reason: it's a man stopper.

I read an article on an interview with a prison warden- he basically said that he saw a lot of convicts with 9mm scars on their bodies but none of them ever had a .45 scar... ;)
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The British stuck with the Webley for a generation after automatics where available, just because what you shot stayed down.
 
Grandpappy said:
Don't know about Russian snipers, but surplus 7.62 x 54R was so cheap, I used to see how fast I could shoot 5 rounds in a kneeling stance and still hit the paper at 100 yards with my old Mosin Nagant 91/30. Got pretty good at it, but I would have to gun oil the rounds or the damn bolt would stiffen up pretty bad. Damn steel cased Romanian ammo.
Guess the other guys at the outdoor range thought I was pretty noisy. ;)
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Hey, I had one of those. Shot flat as a pancake. Nice piece, even if it's a maintenance whore.
 
Hamish Howl said:
Hey, I had one of those. Shot flat as a pancake. Nice piece, even if it's a maintenance whore.
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plus the corrosive ammo is a PITA to clean up after.
 
Hamish Howl said:
The British stuck with the Webley for a generation after automatics where available, just because what you shot stayed down.
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Boer farmers used them to kill elephants. They would ambush an elephant at a water hole-shoot it in the knee. An elephant cannot stand with one knee taken out, and then the Boer would shoot the elephant again through the ear
 
Hamish Howl said:
Yeah, hand loads with something more modern. I'm not a purist.
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Russia was craving US cash, so they were dumping tons of the obsolete but still sound ammo on the market. Same with 545x39 about ten years ago. You could buy a 2100 round or so spam can of that stuff for under 150 bucks. Bought ten of them and a couple of the then cheap Polish Tantal AK 74s. Century arms screwed up the barrels-some had 556 not 545 but they hit out to 100M without a problem. So I have an old chest safe my dad left me-loaded it up with the spam cans and two of those crappy CAI tantals. If the SHTF, I got plenty of rounds and I figure I'd get about 5000 rounds of use out of each.
 
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