Handgun 'stopping power' is a myth.

NWRatCon said:

In 90+% scenarios, I can get 2-3 accurate shots off with my .380 before a 9mm or .45 gets back on target for #2. Now, don't ask me to do it from more than 50 yards... Heh.

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in reality-given over 300,000 rounds out of all kinds of 9mms and about 30,000 out of 380s, I find that I can actually shoot MOST 9mms faster than 380s for two reasons

1) 380 is blowback while the 9mm pistols are not.

2) Every 380 I have ever seen, is a small pistol. The heaviest I have fired are still smaller than a G19. While there are some really small 9's on the market (Kahr, the SIG 238 and the Kimber version of the 238) most are bigger and heavier. Both characteristics generally increase the speed you can shoot accurately. Which is why almost all of us who are USPSA Class A or better level shooters (indeed most Class D and up as well) don't shoot small light pistols but rather use stuff like the CZ Shadow II or the Beretta Elite or the Glock 34s.

Now 380 won't make Minimum power factor for USPSA but even if it did, I cannot think of a 380 handgun that a speed shooter would choose. The RECOIL on something like the Beretta 84 (which I carry often) or the Smaller Glocks in 380, is GENERALLY STIFFER than a G17, a SIG 320 or a CZ 75 (all in 9mm).

It is the weight/size of the gun combined with the blowback action which causes the 380s to often have a sharper recoil characteristic over the bigger nines that have a different mechanism than straight blowback.

TurtleDude said:

yeah the 1997 hollywood shootout is the one I was talking about-though the FBI rush to a heavier pistol than the 38 took place after THIS

1986 FBI Miami shootout - Wikipedia

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Not sure who the dude is but he seems reasonable. I'm surprised so many rounds fired and so few hits.

YouTube

I skipped through some but the meat of it describes all (or most of) the shots fired by agents.

PoS said:

In the end its simple physics I'd say, the .45 ACP is a larger round than a 9mm so it would obviously make bigger holes. I have 2 1911s myself, but in the end if I had a choice, I'd be using my sawed off Saiga-12 loaded with 00-buck.

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I got rid of my Saiga 12 with about everything that could be added to it and every magazine and canister size. It was too heavy.

TurtleDude said:

in reality-given over 300,000 rounds out of all kinds of 9mms and about 30,000 out of 380s, I find that I can actually shoot MOST 9mms faster than 380s for two reasons

1) 380 is blowback while the 9mm pistols are not.

2) Every 380 I have ever seen, is a small pistol. The heaviest I have fired are still smaller than a G19. While there are some really small 9's on the market (Kahr, the SIG 238 and the Kimber version of the 238) most are bigger and heavier. Both characteristics generally increase the speed you can shoot accurately. Which is why almost all of us who are USPSA Class A or better level shooters (indeed most Class D and up as well) don't shoot small light pistols but rather use stuff like the CZ Shadow II or the Beretta Elite or the Glock 34s.

Now 380 won't make Minimum power factor for USPSA but even if it did, I cannot think of a 380 handgun that a speed shooter would choose. The RECOIL on something like the Beretta 84 (which I carry often) or the Smaller Glocks in 380, is GENERALLY STIFFER than a G17, a SIG 320 or a CZ 75 (all in 9mm).

It is the weight/size of the gun combined with the blowback action which causes the 380s to often have a sharper recoil characteristic over the bigger nines that have a different mechanism than straight blowback.

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The plus of a feather weight .380 such as the Ruger LCP is that a person will carry it where otherwise not - or would have to dress to conceal a larger firearm. A person can drop those little .380s into a pocket and it will be unnoticeable. Obviously a "slow draw" and certainly not ideal - but something is better than nothing and at very close quarter the ballistics of a .380 isn't that bad.

The needs of a person for self defense is very, very different from what law enforcement personnel need.

TurtleDude said:

in reality-given over 300,000 rounds out of all kinds of 9mms and about 30,000 out of 380s, I find that I can actually shoot MOST 9mms faster than 380s for two reasons

1) 380 is blowback while the 9mm pistols are not.

2) Every 380 I have ever seen, is a small pistol. The heaviest I have fired are still smaller than a G19. While there are some really small 9's on the market (Kahr, the SIG 238 and the Kimber version of the 238) most are bigger and heavier. Both characteristics generally increase the speed you can shoot accurately. Which is why almost all of us who are USPSA Class A or better level shooters (indeed most Class D and up as well) don't shoot small light pistols but rather use stuff like the CZ Shadow II or the Beretta Elite or the Glock 34s.

Now 380 won't make Minimum power factor for USPSA but even if it did, I cannot think of a 380 handgun that a speed shooter would choose. The RECOIL on something like the Beretta 84 (which I carry often) or the Smaller Glocks in 380, is GENERALLY STIFFER than a G17, a SIG 320 or a CZ 75 (all in 9mm).

It is the weight/size of the gun combined with the blowback action which causes the 380s to often have a sharper recoil characteristic over the bigger nines that have a different mechanism than straight blowback.

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I don't disagree with most of that. Mine is a Beretta 86S, but without the tilt up and double stacked. Fits anywhere. I've never found another like it. It may just be because I've been using it for 30+ years. I used .45 and 9mm in the Army. I prefer more rounds and I always scored better with 9mm than .45. I'm no expert and the only "competition" I've had is with my twin brother.

TurtleDude said:

few mopes think about bullet proof boots!.

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Haha. Turtle's helpful safety hints.

joko104 said:

The plus of a feather weight .380 such as the Ruger LCP is that a person will carry it where otherwise not - or would have to dress to conceal a larger firearm. A person can drop those little .380s into a pocket and it will be unnoticeable. Obviously a "slow draw" and certainly not ideal - but something is better than nothing and at very close quarter the ballistics of a .380 isn't that bad.

The needs of a person for self defense is very, very different from what law enforcement personnel need.

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That's true-I was merely dealing with the claim that someone says he can shoot follow up shots with a 380 faster than someone can with a 9mm. I know from having won dozens of speed shooting contests, that no one wins with 380s and that is because I have yet to see a pistol chambered in that caliber that is something other than a handgun designed to be carried concealed.

Shoot a Walther PP or PPK in 380 and then shoot a Walther 9-38 (Generation One Walthers) or shoot a Sig P238 in 380 and then shoot a SIG 320 (current generation guns) in 9mm, and I bet everyone from novice to a GM level shooter like me, will be able to make accurate follow up shots far more easily with the bigger 9mm guns.

Now an ultra small 9mm like the SIG 938 compared to the basically the same sized 238 (380)- They actually recoil about the same due to the different locking mechanisms.

ecofarm said:

Haha. Turtle's helpful safety hints.

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You hit a guy wearing something other than boots with ceramic ballistic plate , in the ankle with a 762 NATO round or a 12G slug, I can guarantee his ability to cause you serious problems has been significantly decreased.

NWRatCon said:

I don't disagree with most of that. Mine is a Beretta 86S, but without the tilt up and double stacked. Fits anywhere. I've never found another like it. It may just be because I've been using it for 30+ years. I used .45 and 9mm in the Army. I prefer more rounds and I always scored better with 9mm than .45. I'm no expert and the only "competition" I've had is with my twin brother.

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I have two of the 84s with the double stack magazines, one of the police surplus 85s with the single stack magazine (cost half as much as the 84s) and two of the 87s in 22 (which are the most expensive of all). Use the 22's to practice though their safeties are slightly different. Same with the Surplus -saves wear and tear on those 700 dollar 380s. The 86-I thought, always had the tip up barrel. I don't own one of those, and I don't have the rarely seen 83 (which is basically an 85 with a slightly longer barrel)

ThoughtEx. said:

The whole point is, the other guy doesn't have to be elite, and even if you "yourself" are an elite gunfighter firing from the hip will get you killed. Even if they are a crackhead with a knife.

The chances of finding an elite knife fighter? very low. The chances an elite gun fighter can fend off anyone at all firing from the hip are almost non existent.

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Ive had the occasion to have to pull a firearm as a civilian on 4 occasions. Most armed criminals are expecting you wont respond. When you do respond, odds are pretty decent you will win. AHeck, odds are pretty decent just pulling the weapon will change the scenario.

TurtleDude said:

I have two of the 84s with the double stack magazines, one of the police surplus 85s with the single stack magazine (cost half as much as the 84s) and two of the 87s in 22 (which are the most expensive of all). Use the 22's to practice though their safeties are slightly different. Same with the Surplus -saves wear and tear on those 700 dollar 380s. The 86-I thought, always had the tip up barrel. I don't own one of those, and I don't have the rarely seen 83 (which is basically an 85 with a slightly longer barrel)

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Yeah, I know. The 86 is supposed to, but mine doesn't. If it weren't for the paperwork, I wouldn't believe it was an 86. But, I've always loved the little MFer.

TurtleDude said:

That's true-I was merely dealing with the claim that someone says he can shoot follow up shots with a 380 faster than someone can with a 9mm. I know from having won dozens of speed shooting contests, that no one wins with 380s and that is because I have yet to see a pistol chambered in that caliber that is something other than a handgun designed to be carried concealed.

Shoot a Walther PP or PPK in 380 and then shoot a Walther 9-38 (Generation One Walthers) or shoot a Sig P238 in 380 and then shoot a SIG 320 (current generation guns) in 9mm, and I bet everyone from novice to a GM level shooter like me, will be able to make accurate follow up shots far more easily with the bigger 9mm guns.

Now an ultra small 9mm like the SIG 938 compared to the basically the same sized 238 (380)- They actually recoil about the same due to the different locking mechanisms.

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You are certainly correct. The smaller, lighter the pistol or revolver, generally the more difficult it is to control. For example, the tiny North American Arms NAA-22S .22 Short is all but impossible to get off a 2nd shot without the add-on fold down grip.
That said, I've told the story before when some years ago surrounded by 5 punks alone in a real bad part of town, showing that I had one of those in my gloved hand - noting it has the same number of bullets as them was all it took for them to back off. So small, I could literally have it in my clinched hand (sensed danger when I got out), so it got the job done.
I've never been a fan of 9mm, but have nothing to back that up. Double stack is too fat from my liking. While I recognize that the 1911 45acp style really is outdated nor do I like the first round is single action, still I generally carry a full frame 45 acp or - sometimes - a baby Israeli baby Desert Eagle - 6 in the magazine and 1 in the chamber. The small size makes that barrel diameter look huge.

For home defense? I could have anything I want - and may own more firearms than anyone else on this forum - though rarely do any shooting - I still prefer the old fashioned twin hammer locks standard double barrel 12 gauge stagecoach gun - with 5 extra shells in a stock holder. That also is my "brush gun," ie wild hogs. Told the story before. She same out of the palmettos full speed to protect her piglets I didn't know about - maybe 2 seconds reaction time. Double 00 in one barrel and a slug in the other. Fired both barrels - and hit her with both - but at her rear and didn't stop her ripping open my leg.

It was then a ground fight - both of us fatally wounded (unless I could end this QUICK to stop the bleeding before I lost consciousness). However, her mobility had been reduced by the double 12s breaking her rear spine taking out her back legs. With her ripping up my left arm (in her mouth to hold her off) I finished her with a WW2 Japanese bayonet that had been converted to a short machete with a wrap around hilt in my right hand. Was helicoptered out.

A short double barrel 12 gauge is a crude, simple firearm. However, I am a good shot with a shotgun (really bad with a pistol/revolver and less than average with a rifle.) The reason it is the right choice for me? Because I have confidence in it. A shortened double 12 had saved my life prior to that incident. Confidence equates to better, faster decisions and likely better accuracy. (I recommend anyone relying on a handgun for home defense if NOT a truly avid shooter that an instant-on laser grip is a must have).

Something not mentioned is one consideration in selection of firearms is what does the person personally feel comfortable with and confident in? The other is will the person actually carry it? That is a reason why opting for smaller often would make more sense, even if lesser firepower.

Handguns only do muscle, tissue and possible bone damage, while high velocity rifle rounds additionally cause energy damage - similar to an explosion inside a person and therefore damaging organs not hit by the bullet.

The larger diameter of the 45 acp does mean a larger diameter of muscle/tissue damage. That fraction of a inch could make the difference. The specific purpose of the 1911 originally with ammo back-then was the higher striking energy than a 38 special (the prior military sidearm) plus the speed of reloading with a magazine. In warfare in the jungles of the Spanish-American war, the 38sp was not well suited against a surprise machete attack - and if too dense a rifle or shotgun couldn't be swung around easily.

Lursa said:

Nobody says you need to stand still and shoot, from the hip or otherwise. Does anyone even recommend that in real-life situations?

I love to move and shoot. That's how I train.

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That is the only way to train. For self defense, nearly all practice should be "impulse shooting."

As a comment, numerous studies of police shootouts - where the other side is armed - demonstrated that officers who FIRST sought cover before returning firing were overwhelmingly more likely to live than those who first respond by returning fire.

In high stress situations, most people are terrible shots with a handgun. Even if they manage to hit the person, it will likely not be lethal. Moving while impulse shooting (to throw the other person off) would be far wiser than taking a stance, aiming and firing as you are giving the other person a fixed target.

OldFatGuy said:

Your choice, my old .44 or my relatively new 9mm. Run towards me, see if the one you chose stops you when I shoot from the hip.

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From the hip? Well, then, I would prefer that you were using a .44 load. You could get one shot off, recoil would throw off your aim (if not propelled the pistol from the one hand you were using) and you would waste precious time re-setting after the first shot.

Jason Warfield said:

From the hip? Well, then, I would prefer that you were using a .44 load. You could get one shot off, recoil would throw off your aim (if not propelled the pistol from the one hand you were using) and you would waste precious time re-setting after the first shot.

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But he has ninja darts and sleeve knives.

"Now for something completely different..."



Antique cane gun. This may be the best of all for personal carry self defense. I pulled this picture from the Internet, but I own one of these - a cap and ball black powder shotgun. It wasn't cheap.

Being antique, in Florida it is not a firearm under state or federal law (unless used in a crime). Also, being antique, it is a legal "disguised" firearm, which otherwise disguised firearms are VERY illegal.

The plus? It could hold off a knife attack in a way no CCW could - literally holding it off with your reach longer than the reach of the attacker's knife. If sensing danger, you could raise it in a way ready to fire - yet it unknown you have a shotgun only a few degrees off from directly pointing at the potential assailant. This addresses the inherent reaction-time delay in reactive defense.

If the person produces a knife - that person has to get past your cane since you have a longer reach with it. While black powder, the barrel length allows velocity and the range would be inches - if not direct contact (a direct contact wound from a firearm is massively more damaging).

While you are unarmed after firing (unless have a backup pocket pistol), you do have a steel pipe cane against a now severely wounded (and surprised) assailant. Probably if possible the person would run, rather than continuing their attack. More likely the person is on the ground, dying from a horrific direct contact shotgun chest wound.

The core problem of personal self defense is that attackers are not going to announce their intentions. You can not keep a person 30 feet away from you just because the person makes you nervous. To the contrary, someone of sinister intentions is going to be deceptive - and then suddenly the knife comes out - the person only a few feet from you. There is no possibility of drawing, firing and STOPPING the knife attacker. Even if you manage to shoot the person, you are going to be stabbed. If you use one arm/hand to go for your firearm, you also are now a one armed defender against a two armed attacker with a knife.

Anyway, I searched long and hard for that cane gun specifically pondering the realities of on-the-street self defense when approached by someone of questionable intentions - like an approaching beggar-bum. You can't really draw a firearm on the person just because you're concerned. If that person does produce a knife, it is unlikely a gun could be drawn quick enough.

The cane gun means 1.) your firearm is always draw and you can hold it in a way read to fire between you and the person - but in a non-threatening way nor any knowledge you have a firearm (legal issues avoided), 2.) your reach with your weapon is longer than than attacker with a knife and 3.) to reach you the person has to literally come thru your cane gun - literally a direct contact blast into the attacker's chest - maximum internal blast damage. SURPRISE! You still have a steel pipe to fight with and against a severely wounded and startled attacker.

ecofarm said:

I read the wiki. I was thinking of the guys in armor shootout.

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Your garden variety body armor doesn't protect the legs, where the femoral artery is located.

TurtleDude said:

The now retired firearms instructor for the local FBI offices, and I used to discuss this issue a bit. They have a rule about turning over ammo every six months, IIRC, so he always had stuff that was perfectly good but they could no longer use-so I got to do fun things like shoot bowling pins with 45 ACP hydrashock etc. we also read everything from the Ancient Hatcher studies to Evan Marshall's more modern findings. The FBI -after the Miami debacle (where SA Jerry Dove was killed) -wanted more stopping power than the old 38s rounds they carried and that lead the development of the 10mm and the 40SW and guess what-they are back using the 9mm.

After years and years of reading all I can on this topic, and talking to dozens of "experts", I really cannot say one is better than the other.

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I agree. There's no definitive answer since everybody is different. I guess I seem to have more confidence with having to use a bigger round rather than a smaller one as an extra precaution.

joko104 said:

I got rid of my Saiga 12 with about everything that could be added to it and every magazine and canister size. It was too heavy.

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I've got a Mag-pul sling so I can lug it around if I need to.

Jason Warfield said:

From the hip? Well, then, I would prefer that you were using a .44 load. You could get one shot off, recoil would throw off your aim (if not propelled the pistol from the one hand you were using) and you would waste precious time re-setting after the first shot.

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If you can't take your target with the first round, there likely won't be a second.

Wayne Jr said:

Training is the most important element of your firearms strategy. Shot placement is everything. The caliber you use...not so much. I welcome your thoughts on the topic.

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Yeah.. that's a load of horsecrap.. as usual.

Sure. shot placement matters... but so does "stopping power"..or energy.

If it didn't.. everyone would hunt moose with a .22.

And yes.. I can and have killed animals bigger than a moose with a .22. I regularly kill cattle with headshots out to 50 yards.

but at the end of the day.. I don't hunt moose with a .22. and that's because bullet mass and energy do matter.

Sure.. if you perforate a moose lungs with a .22.. its going to die.. but in the mean time.. it could be making you a smear in the alder thicket. bigger, faster moving bullets.. simple make bigger holes and break more bones and cause more blood loss and hemorrhaging.

The same rule applies to defensive handguns. Sure a .22 shot to the chest to a guy without body armor.. will kill him. No doubt.. the .22 has killed a lot of humans in its day.

but.. that guy that I hit in the same place.. center chest with a 44 magnum. He ain't continuing toward me.

the guy I hit with a 22 center chest? If his adrenaline is flowing.. he stands a good chance of continuing to fight.

Its just that simple.. and anyone who says.. "the caliber you use doesn't matter"... in a defensive situation. Doesn't understand basic physics.

jaeger19 said:

Yeah.. that's a load of horsecrap.. as usual.

Sure. shot placement matters... but so does "stopping power"..or energy.

If it didn't.. everyone would hunt moose with a .22.

And yes.. I can and have killed animals bigger than a moose with a .22. I regularly kill cattle with headshots out to 50 yards.

but at the end of the day.. I don't hunt moose with a .22. and that's because bullet mass and energy do matter.

Sure.. if you perforate a moose lungs with a .22.. its going to die.. but in the mean time.. it could be making you a smear in the alder thicket. bigger, faster moving bullets.. simple make bigger holes and break more bones and cause more blood loss and hemorrhaging.

The same rule applies to defensive handguns. Sure a .22 shot to the chest to a guy without body armor.. will kill him. No doubt.. the .22 has killed a lot of humans in its day.

but.. that guy that I hit in the same place.. center chest with a 44 magnum. He ain't continuing toward me.

the guy I hit with a 22 center chest? If his adrenaline is flowing.. he stands a good chance of continuing to fight.

Its just that simple.. and anyone who says.. "the caliber you use doesn't matter"... in a defensive situation. Doesn't understand basic physics.

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The point is that there is a range where caliber doesn’t matter and other factors do.
I have a .22lr pistol and a .357 magnum revolver. I’m not yet proficient firing full power .357 rounds so in a home invasion i’d go for the .22 first because I know I can rapid fire at least 8/10 rounds into somebody’s face, while it still takes me time to recover and reacquire from firing .357. I practice regularly and I’m improving but not there yet. I could go with .38 special, which I am more reliable with, but my point is that the gun you can shoot well is better than the one you can’t, regardless of caliber.

Yes .22lr, .25acp, .32acp will not reliably take down a bad guy with one shot. 380 is marginal.

But the practical difference between 9mm, 10mm, .40 s&w and 45 ACP are pretty meaningless.

No one has suggested that caliber difference doesn’t matter at all in any circumstances.

pinqy said:

The point is that there is a range where caliber doesn’t matter and other factors do.
I have a .22lr pistol and a .357 magnum revolver. I’m not yet proficient firing full power .357 rounds so in a home invasion i’d go for the .22 first because I know I can rapid fire at least 8/10 rounds into somebody’s face, while it still takes me time to recover and reacquire from firing .357. I practice regularly and I’m improving but not there yet. I could go with .38 special, which I am more reliable with, but my point is that the gun you can shoot well is better than the one you can’t, regardless of caliber.

Yes .22lr, .25acp, .32acp will not reliably take down a bad guy with one shot. 380 is marginal.

But the practical difference between 9mm, 10mm, .40 s&w and 45 ACP are pretty meaningless.

No one has suggested that caliber difference doesn’t matter at all in any circumstances.

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Just to point out.. you are not making the argument that caliber doesn't matter.. you are making an argument on skill.

Lets compare apples to apples..

You shoot a .22 and a .357 equally well...

Which would you rather shoot an attacker.. 6 shots with a .357

6 shots with a .22.

Or do you think it doesn't matter..because they are equal.

Shot placement and stopping power ( as it applies to size of round) are two sides of the same coin....that being said, I will still carry my 10 mm in place of a .22; I hate having to repeat myself.