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Minority Rights

Michael McMahon said:
Hi my name is Michael McMahon. A common argument against gun control is the threat of a tyrannical government. But is there any other defensive countermeasure?

The problem with having freely available guns without any background check is that armed civilians cannot protect themselves against snipers. With any gun such as a handgun or a shotgun it's possible to ambush a person and attack from behind or shoot from a concealed position. Unless one intends to spend the day darting to cover around every corner with a binoculars I fail to see how they can defend themselves. We literally don't have eyes on the back of our heads to guard against any sneaky assassin.

I was thinking one way to defend against a murderous government would be to use a military version of proportional representation. So, if a parliamentary party has 30% of the vote they'd have complete 30% control of the military. If another party has 60% of the vote they'd then be granted 60% command of the military with their own autonomous military bases and units. And so on. This would give minorities a better organisational and logistical capacity to deter or defect and thwart a tyranny.

Obviously hate speech laws can be used to prevent any violent and extremist candidate or group from running for office to prevent them gaining military representation.

What would you think of this idea?
Click to expand...

Murderous government???

Are you kidding?

Snipers randomly killing people?

Do you ever read what you write?
 
Colin Norris said:
Murderous government???
Click to expand...
Unless you're in America or Britain, most countries have limits on the number of recruits per year due to the smaller size of the army. So if there was ever an imminent threat of tyranny it might be too late to alter the demographics of the military.

Colin Norris said:
Snipers randomly killing people?
Click to expand...
In a country of millions of people there'll inevitably be murderous criminals who'll use whatever they can get their hands on to carry out their evil deeds.

Colin Norris said:
Are you kidding?
Click to expand...
Democracy is the best form of government but it's not perfect and in rare situations it could catastrophically fail.

Colin Norris said:
Do you ever read what you write?
Click to expand...
Expected loss = frequency of risk × severity of risk
There's a tiny risk of tyranny but if it ever occurred we could lose everything.
 
Michael McMahon said:
Unless you're in America or Britain, most countries have limits on the number of recruits per year due to the smaller size of the army. So if there was ever an imminent threat of tyranny it might be too late to alter the demographics of the military.


In a country of millions of people there'll inevitably be murderous criminals who'll use whatever they can get their hands on to carry out their evil deeds.


Democracy is the best form of government but it's not perfect and in rare situations it could catastrophically fail.


Expected loss = frequency of risk × severity of risk
There's a tiny risk of tyranny but if it ever occurred we could lose everything.
Click to expand...

You are probably a paranoid Republican sprinkled with ever increasing delusions.
No one mentioned these outrageous allegations when trump was there. Suddenly last November threats to the country's sovereignty exploded.

Furthermore, you have no evidence at all that those instances regularly happen.
It's fear generated by right wing governments to divide the nation.

If you must reply, quote some links to prove everything you say.
 
Colin Norris said:
You are probably a paranoid Republican sprinkled with ever increasing delusions.
Click to expand...
I'm really a centrist but of course the political spectrum is slightly different in each country and so the centre is relative. So in Ireland I might be viewed as somewhat right wing for my views on militias but if I was in America then they'd definitely see me as far left guy for my opinions on gun control!
 
Glitch said:
It isn't the diameter of the round that matters, but rather its mass as well as velocity.


A 20 grain round is about half the weight of a normal .22 LR. Which meant that at 1,200 fps the round had 64 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. Are you sure you killed the animal and did not just knock it out? I'm sure it wasn't at point-blank range either, so we are talking about significant less energy than 64 foot pounds. That seems like too little energy to accomplish the task.


Once again, the caliber is immaterial. It is the weight of the round, or its mass, and the velocity at which it travels that matters, not its diameter.
Click to expand...
210 grain bullets
 
Glitch said:
It isn't the diameter of the round that matters, but rather its mass as well as velocity.


A 20 grain round is about half the weight of a normal .22 LR. Which meant that at 1,200 fps the round had 64 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. Are you sure you killed the animal and did not just knock it out? I'm sure it wasn't at point-blank range either, so we are talking about significant less energy than 64 foot pounds. That seems like too little energy to accomplish the task.


Once again, the caliber is immaterial. It is the weight of the round, or its mass, and the velocity at which it travels that matters, not its diameter.
Click to expand...
Is a 165 gr .45 caliber projectile moving at 900 fps damgerous?
 
Glitch said:
There is no airgun on the planet that can move 165 grains at 900 fps so stop trying to pretend otherwise.
Click to expand...
Why should we believe you?

Reverse engineering a 520 gr pellet and 800+ ft lbs of energy at the muzzle using JBM Ballistics, the pellet would have to be moving at about 851 fps.

These air guns are shooting a 500+ grain projectile at over 800 fps. You should stop pretending that you're all knowing with regards to firearms.

www.fieldandstream.com

8 Big-Bore Airguns That Are Powerful Enough to Take Big Game

Interest in airguns is growing. Here’s a look at some of the better big bores airguns available today.
www.fieldandstream.com www.fieldandstream.com
 
Rucker61 said:
Why should we believe you?

Reverse engineering a 520 gr pellet and 800+ ft lbs of energy at the muzzle using JBM Ballistics, the pellet would have to be moving at about 851 fps.

These air guns are shooting a 500+ grain projectile at over 800 fps. You should stop pretending that you're all knowing with regards to firearms.

www.fieldandstream.com

8 Big-Bore Airguns That Are Powerful Enough to Take Big Game

Interest in airguns is growing. Here’s a look at some of the better big bores airguns available today.
www.fieldandstream.com www.fieldandstream.com
Click to expand...
Airguns aren't firearms, as I said, they are toys. You are just unhappy because I've destroyed your precious toy by demonstrating that it doesn't have the power to injure a marshmallow much less anything living.
 
Glitch said:
Airguns aren't firearms, as I said, they are toys. You are just unhappy because I've destroyed your precious toy by demonstrating that it doesn't have the power to injure a marshmallow much less anything living.
Click to expand...
You demonstrated absolutely nothing. Your words on my screen aren't proof of anything.

Your issue should be with the editors of Field and Stream.

Skip to about 4:55:

 
Rucker61 said:
You demonstrated absolutely nothing. Your words on my screen aren't proof of anything.

Your issue should be with the editors of Field and Stream.

Skip to about 4:55:

Click to expand...

It is called basic physics, you should learn some.

As I told TurtleDude, it isn't the diameter of the round that matters. It is only the round's mass and velocity that matters. If you had any comprehension of basic physics you would know this.
 
Glitch said:
It is called basic physics, you should learn some.

As I told TurtleDude, it isn't the diameter of the round that matters. It is only the round's mass and velocity that matters. If you had any comprehension of basic physics you would know this.
Click to expand...
I have a degree in mathematics, so I understand basic physics. A .51 caliber round with a mass of 520 grains traveling at 805 fps certainly has enough velocity and energy to kill, as the video I linked showed us. Well, maybe just the "us" that includes those with an understanding of evidence.

I DGAF what you've told anyone - you've failed to present any evidence other than your opinion, and as evidence, that's worth precisely nothing.

I don't know if you're familiar with the JBM ballistics site, but data shows that .51 caliber 520 grain bullet fired at 850 fps produces 838 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle. In comparison, a 230 gr .45 ACP fired at 830 fps produces muzzle energy of about 355 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle.

That doesn't require any knowledge of physics at all, just that of simple arithmetic. 838>355.

JBM - Calculations - Trajectory (Drift)

www.jbmballistics.com www.jbmballistics.com
 
Rucker61 said:
I have a degree in mathematics, so I understand basic physics. A .51 caliber round with a mass of 520 grains traveling at 805 fps certainly has enough velocity and energy to kill, as the video I linked showed us. Well, maybe just the "us" that includes those with an understanding of evidence.

I DGAF what you've told anyone - you've failed to present any evidence other than your opinion, and as evidence, that's worth precisely nothing.

I don't know if you're familiar with the JBM ballistics site, but data shows that .51 caliber 520 grain bullet fired at 850 fps produces 838 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle. In comparison, a 230 gr .45 ACP fired at 830 fps produces muzzle energy of about 355 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle.

That doesn't require any knowledge of physics at all, just that of simple arithmetic. 838>355.

JBM - Calculations - Trajectory (Drift)

www.jbmballistics.com www.jbmballistics.com
Click to expand...
Both you and TutrleDude seem to be under the wrong impression that the caliber of the round matters. You keep using .45 cal., TurtleDude uses .22 and .38 cal. The diameter of the round does not matter. Kinetic energy equals one-half the mass of an object times the square of its velocity.

I'm not buying that any airgun is capable of propelling a mass of even 180 grains in weight, much less the 230 grains or the ridiculous 520 grains you are proposing, at more than 500 fps. Airgun pellets are typically only 4 grains in weight, and at best you are looking at 750 fps. Which makes the kinetic energy a mere 5 foot pounds. That is barely enough to break skin.
 
Glitch said:
Both you and TutrleDude seem to be under the wrong impression that the caliber of the round matters. You keep using .45 cal., TurtleDude uses .22 and .38 cal. The diameter of the round does not matter. Kinetic energy equals one-half the mass of an object times the square of its velocity.
Click to expand...
Actually, in my last example I used .51 caliber, as that was the caliber used by the big game hunting air rifles in the Field and Stream article. The mass given was 520 grs. The muzzle velocity is in the neighborhood. of 800+ fps.
Glitch said:
I'm not buying that any airgun is capable of propelling a mass of even 180 grains in weight, much less the 230 grains or the ridiculous 520 grains you are proposing, at more than 500 fps.
Click to expand...
Again, your inability to interpret evidence is your own problem. I've presented multiple real-world examples of such.

Here's another:

www.pyramydair.com

Airgun Hunting Laws by State | Pyramyd Air

Where is it legal to hunt with airguns?
www.pyramydair.com

Glitch said:
Airgun pellets are typically only 4 grains in weight, and at best you are looking at 750 fps. Which makes the kinetic energy a mere 5 foot pounds. That is barely enough to break skin.
Click to expand...
Gosh, if only that was what I was talking about, you'd have a point. I'm not, and you don't.
 
Rucker61 said:
Actually, in my last example I used .51 caliber, as that was the caliber used by the big game hunting air rifles in the Field and Stream article. The mass given was 520 grs. The muzzle velocity is in the neighborhood. of 800+ fps.

Again, your inability to interpret evidence is your own problem. I've presented multiple real-world examples of such.

Here's another:

www.pyramydair.com

Airgun Hunting Laws by State | Pyramyd Air

Where is it legal to hunt with airguns?
www.pyramydair.com


Gosh, if only that was what I was talking about, you'd have a point. I'm not, and you don't.
Click to expand...
Your "real-world" example are State laws that only allow small birds to be shot with airguns? Gee, what a surprise. :rolleyes:

In Alaska the minimum weight and velocity of the ammunition is recommended by species. For example, to hunt forest bison the ADF&G recommend a minimum of a 175 grain bullet having a minimum of 2,800 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. Which would make the minimum velocity for a 175 grain round at 2,684.62 fps. The only thing that is illegal to use on big game in Alaska are rimfire rounds (except for swimming caribou in GMU 18).

The ADF&G also recommend a minimum of .300 mag, .338 mag., and .375 mag. for brown bear, but according to the bear guides that I have talked with, if you bring anything under .4 cal. they are going to add another $2,000 to the price because it means they will be taking the second shot.
 
Glitch said:
Your "real-world" example are State laws that only allow small birds to be shot with airguns? Gee, what a surprise. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Are you really that incapable of reading?

Texas:


Approved species for airgun hunting in Texas *​


  • Alligators Pre-charged pneumatic air guns must fire a projectile of at least 30 caliber in diameter and at least 150 grains in weight with a minimum muzzle velocity of 800 feet per second or any combination of bullet weight and muzzle velocity that produces muzzle energy of at least 215 foot-pounds of energy.
  • Badger Furbearer - Pre-charged pneumatic airguns must fire a projectile of at least .30 caliber in diameter and at least 150 grains in weight with a minimum muzzle velocity of 800 feet per second or any combination of bullet weight and muzzle velocity that produces muzzle energy of at least 215 foot-pounds of energy.
  • Desert Bighorn Sheep Pre-charged pneumatic airguns must fire a projectile of at least .30 caliber in diameter and at least 150 grains in weight with a minimum muzzle velocity of 800 feet per second or any combination of bullet weight and muzzle velocity that produces muzzle energy of at least 215 foot-pounds of energy.
  • Javelina Pre-charged pneumatic airguns must fire a projectile of at least .30 caliber in diameter and at least 150 grains in weight with a minimum muzzle velocity of 800 feet per second or any combination of bullet weight and muzzle velocity that produces muzzle energy of at least 215 foot-pounds of energy.
    Mountain Lion On private lands only.
  • Mule Deer Pre-charged pneumatic airguns must fire a projectile of at least .30 caliber in diameter and at least 150 grains in weight with a minimum muzzle velocity of 800 feet per second or any combination of bullet weight and muzzle velocity that produces muzzle energy of at least 215 foot-pounds of energy. Arrow-shooting airguns cannot be used during archery season.
  • Whitetail Deer Pre-charged pneumatic airguns must fire a projectile of at least .30 caliber in diameter and at least 150 grains in weight with a minimum muzzle velocity of 800 feet per second or any combination of bullet weight and muzzle velocity that produces muzzle energy of at least 215 foot-pounds of energy. Arrow-shooting airguns cannot be used during archery season.

www.pyramydair.com

Airgun Hunting Laws by State | Pyramyd Air

Where is it legal to hunt with airguns?
www.pyramydair.com
Glitch said:
In Alaska the minimum weight and velocity of the ammunition is recommended by species. For example, to hunt forest bison the ADF&G recommend a minimum of a 175 grain bullet having a minimum of 2,800 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. Which would make the minimum velocity for a 175 grain round at 2,684.62 fps. The only thing that is illegal to use on big game in Alaska are rimfire rounds (except for swimming caribou in GMU 18).
Click to expand...

Alaska <> entire US.
Glitch said:
The ADF&G also recommend a minimum of .300 mag, .338 mag., and .375 mag. for brown bear, but according to the bear guides that I have talked with, if you bring anything under .4 cal. they are going to add another $2,000 to the price because it means they will be taking the second shot.
Click to expand...
How nice, and not pertinent.
 
Rucker61 said:
Are you really that incapable of reading?

Texas:


Approved species for airgun hunting in Texas *​


  • Alligators Pre-charged pneumatic air guns must fire a projectile of at least 30 caliber in diameter and at least 150 grains in weight with a minimum muzzle velocity of 800 feet per second or any combination of bullet weight and muzzle velocity that produces muzzle energy of at least 215 foot-pounds of energy.
  • Badger Furbearer - Pre-charged pneumatic airguns must fire a projectile of at least .30 caliber in diameter and at least 150 grains in weight with a minimum muzzle velocity of 800 feet per second or any combination of bullet weight and muzzle velocity that produces muzzle energy of at least 215 foot-pounds of energy.
  • Desert Bighorn Sheep Pre-charged pneumatic airguns must fire a projectile of at least .30 caliber in diameter and at least 150 grains in weight with a minimum muzzle velocity of 800 feet per second or any combination of bullet weight and muzzle velocity that produces muzzle energy of at least 215 foot-pounds of energy.
  • Javelina Pre-charged pneumatic airguns must fire a projectile of at least .30 caliber in diameter and at least 150 grains in weight with a minimum muzzle velocity of 800 feet per second or any combination of bullet weight and muzzle velocity that produces muzzle energy of at least 215 foot-pounds of energy.
    Mountain Lion On private lands only.
  • Mule Deer Pre-charged pneumatic airguns must fire a projectile of at least .30 caliber in diameter and at least 150 grains in weight with a minimum muzzle velocity of 800 feet per second or any combination of bullet weight and muzzle velocity that produces muzzle energy of at least 215 foot-pounds of energy. Arrow-shooting airguns cannot be used during archery season.
  • Whitetail Deer Pre-charged pneumatic airguns must fire a projectile of at least .30 caliber in diameter and at least 150 grains in weight with a minimum muzzle velocity of 800 feet per second or any combination of bullet weight and muzzle velocity that produces muzzle energy of at least 215 foot-pounds of energy. Arrow-shooting airguns cannot be used during archery season.

www.pyramydair.com

Airgun Hunting Laws by State | Pyramyd Air

Where is it legal to hunt with airguns?
www.pyramydair.com


Alaska <> entire US.

How nice, and not pertinent.
Click to expand...
I read all I needed to know:

Approved species for airgun hunting in Alaska *​

  • Deleterious Exotic
  • Ptarmigan
  • Ruffed Grouse
  • Small Game
  • Snowshoe Hare
  • Spruce Grouse
Click to expand...
 
Glitch said:
I read all I needed to know:
Click to expand...
Which is a far cry from:

"An airgun is toy, nothing more. At best they have a muzzle velocity of 770 fps. Which means that a 4.7 grain alloy pellet is not going to have more than 6.19 foot pounds energy at the muzzle. Which is just barely enough energy to break skin, assuming you are firing at point-blank range."

"As I previously demonstrated, it really can't be dangerous."

"That is the problem with airguns, they lack the force required. "

"Because no air gun on the planet fires a 165 grain round at 900 fps. It is total BS"

"There is no airgun on the planet that can move 165 grains at 900 fps so stop trying to pretend otherwise."

If airguns are capable of taking mule deer, and are legal to do so in many states, your entire position melts away.

Here's the place where you say "I was wrong".
 
Glitch said:
Airguns aren't firearms, as I said, they are toys. You are just unhappy because I've destroyed your precious toy by demonstrating that it doesn't have the power to injure a marshmallow much less anything living.
Click to expand...
Which is a claim that myself and 2 others have thoroughly demolished. You’ve been shown the lethality of an air rifle, shooting a 230 grain .45 caliber pellet over 1,000 FPS.
 
Glitch said:
Both you and TutrleDude seem to be under the wrong impression that the caliber of the round matters. You keep using .45 cal., TurtleDude uses .22 and .38 cal. The diameter of the round does not matter. Kinetic energy equals one-half the mass of an object times the square of its velocity.

I'm not buying that any airgun is capable of propelling a mass of even 180 grains in weight, much less the 230 grains or the ridiculous 520 grains you are proposing, at more than 500 fps. Airgun pellets are typically only 4 grains in weight, and at best you are looking at 750 fps. Which makes the kinetic energy a mere 5 foot pounds. That is barely enough to break skin.
Click to expand...
What you buy is completely meaningless. You have been SHOWN that 180 grain pellets can and are propelled from an air gun at over 1,000 FPS. It’s not debatable. You have been proven wrong.
 
rahl said:
Which is a claim that myself and 2 others have thoroughly demolished. You’ve been shown the lethality of an air rifle, shooting a 230 grain .45 caliber pellet over 1,000 FPS.
Click to expand...
rahl said:
What you buy is completely meaningless. You have been SHOWN that 180 grain pellets can and are propelled from an air gun at over 1,000 FPS. It’s not debatable. You have been proven wrong.
Click to expand...

The only thing you have SHOWN is that you can't keep your story straight. Which is it, a 230 grain pellet, or a 180 grain pellet? What you undoubtedly meant to say was a 4 grain pellet. :rolleyes:
 
Glitch said:
The only thing you have SHOWN is that you can't keep your story straight. Which is it, a 230 grain pellet, or a 180 grain pellet? What you undoubtedly meant to say was a 4 grain pellet. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
I’ve shown both. You are demonstrably incorrect, and 3 people have proven this. Put down the shovel, be a man, and admit you were unaware that an air rifle can propel that much mass at that speed.

Minority Rights

no they aren;'t. the govn't can restrict arms inside govn't buildings. It's no different than a business owner putting up a no firearms sign. It is very different. What part of "shall not be infringed" escapes your grasp? That is a very specific restriction on government, not private...
debatepolitics.com debatepolitics.com
 
Glitch said:
The only thing you have SHOWN is that you can't keep your story straight. Which is it, a 230 grain pellet, or a 180 grain pellet? What you undoubtedly meant to say was a 4 grain pellet. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Are you really incapable of understanding that different calibers can shoot different size bullets?
 
The first air rifle predates the 2A....and was considered a weapon and used by the military, though in small numbers.

en.wikipedia.org

Girardoni air rifle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
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