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Argue the other side.

haymarket said:
Oaky. Here is your chance to prove your claim. Please submit verifiable evidence of the state electors meetings where the Russian involvement in our election was discussed and investigated to protect the nation from a creature of a foreign government just as Hamilton promised the nation it would function to do.



Lets see your evidence that they did function as promised.
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Are you saying the electors are Russian agents???
 
In hindsight, looking at the hundreds of responses to the OP's question: nobody who really likes to talk about guns has ever learned anything from their opponents.
 
haymarket said:
Oaky. Here is your chance to prove your claim. Please submit verifiable evidence of the state electors meetings where the Russian involvement in our election was discussed and investigated to protect the nation from a creature of a foreign government just as Hamilton promised the nation it would function to do.



Lets see your evidence that they did function as promised.
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I don't see where Hamilton wrote that it was a responsibility of the electors to discuss and investigate any involvement by a foreign power in our elections, and in any case, those discussions would have been behind closed doors.

What exactly would such a group of state electors do in the event said discussion and investigation took place?
 
Rucker61 said:
I don't see where Hamilton wrote that it was a responsibility of the electors to discuss and investigate any involvement by a foreign power in our elections, and in any case, those discussions would have been behind closed doors.

What exactly would such a group of state electors do in the event said discussion and investigation took place?
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How else could they carry out their promised responsibility if they did NOT discuss and investigate? They really only had two choices and they opted to ignore it and thus the promise of the protection of the EC was trashed and violated.

If they did investigate and found the Russians helped Trump get his votes, then the electors could have acted differently and denied Trump their votes.
 
haymarket said:
How else could they carry out their promised responsibility if they did NOT discuss and investigate? They really only had two choices and they opted to ignore it and thus the promise of the protection of the EC was trashed and violated.
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Hamilton's "promise" had no legal bearing. Here's what the Constitution requires of electors under the 12th Amendment:

"The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and all persons voted for as Vice-President and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;

The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;

The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President.[a]

The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States."

If they did investigate and found the Russians helped Trump get his votes, then the electors could have acted differently and denied Trump their votes.
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Yes, the time between the national election and the first Monday after the Second Wednesday would have given them so much time to investigate, and with no skills to do so and no legal authority to do so. Likewise, many electors are bound by law to vote in accordance with popular vote of their state and wouldn't be likely to deny Trump their vote.

Edit: This discussion is indeed off topic for this one.
 
Rucker61 said:
Hamilton's "promise" had no legal bearing.
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Hamilton was the salesman who sold the young American people the EC car making specific promises about its operation and function and use. And if failed to operate as he promised them it would.
 
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haymarket said:
How else could they carry out their promised responsibility if they did NOT discuss and investigate? They really only had two choices and they opted to ignore it and thus the promise of the protection of the EC was trashed and violated.

If they did investigate and found the Russians helped Trump get his votes, then the electors could have acted differently and denied Trump their votes.
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Trump is not a Russian agent. I take it you believe this silly crap.

Russia (and Putin) would want Hillary in office. He would want Obama in office forever. They are communists and socialists. Trump is neither. Why do you figure Trump is a Russian agent???
 
Rucker61 said:
Hamilton's "promise" had no legal bearing. Here's what the Constitution requires of electors under the 12th Amendment:

"The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and all persons voted for as Vice-President and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;

The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;

The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President.[a]

The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States."



Yes, the time between the national election and the first Monday after the Second Wednesday would have given them so much time to investigate, and with no skills to do so and no legal authority to do so. Likewise, many electors are bound by law to vote in accordance with popular vote of their state and wouldn't be likely to deny Trump their vote.

Edit: This discussion is indeed off topic for this one.
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Hamlton's promise wasn't broken anyway.
 
Into the Night said:
Trump is not a Russian agent. I take it you believe this silly crap.

Russia (and Putin) would want Hillary in office. He would want Obama in office forever. They are communists and socialists. Trump is neither. Why do you figure Trump is a Russian agent???
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I do not think there is any evidence yet that Trump is a Russian agent.

There is plenty of evidence that Trump is a Russian asset.
 
haymarket said:
I do not think there is any evidence yet that Trump is a Russian agent.

There is plenty of evidence that Trump is a Russian asset.
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Taking this to the other thread.
 
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Into the Night said:
Trump is not a Russian agent. I take it you believe this silly crap.

Russia (and Putin) would want Hillary in office. He would want Obama in office forever. They are communists and socialists. Trump is neither. Why do you figure Trump is a Russian agent???
Click to expand...

Well there is this little federal investigation thing going on you may have heard of
 
Kal'Stang said:
I'm interested to know if anyone on the pro-gun control side can argue from the point of the pro-2nd Amendment side.

And if anyone from the pro-2nd Amendment side can argue the pro-gun control side.

I can't right now as I'm too tired. Going to get some sleep after I post this. But for now consider that this is what the thread is about. Argue the opposite side. If you can't, or won't, then simply please do not post in the thread. I would like to see an honest attempt at this.
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At the federal level.
Ammunition sells need back ground checks with every purchase through a FFL.
All private gun sells must be done through an a FFL with back ground checks required.
Barrels for guns have to a serialized number etched into them provided by the ATF.
Smokeless gun powered is illegal for normal people to buy. You must have a contactors licenses or a FFL to purchase powder.
Lever action, bolt action, pump action guns, and revolvers can't hold more then 6 rounds.
All semi automatic guns are banned from being sold.
Magazines are banned from being sold.
Gun buy back program to buy semi auto guns from public. Lasting 5 years. Then a 5 year period without a buyback to turn them in with out compensation. Then a max 1 year jail sentence for being in possession of said guns.

How did I do?
 
jdog21 said:
At the federal level.
Ammunition sells need back ground checks with every purchase through a FFL.
All private gun sells must be done through an a FFL with back ground checks required.
Barrels for guns have to a serialized number etched into them provided by the ATF.
Smokeless gun powered is illegal for normal people to buy. You must have a contactors licenses or a FFL to purchase powder.
Lever action, bolt action, pump action guns, and revolvers can't hold more then 6 rounds.
All semi automatic guns are banned from being sold.
Magazines are banned from being sold.
Gun buy back program to buy semi auto guns from public. Lasting 5 years. Then a 5 year period without a buyback to turn them in with out compensation. Then a max 1 year jail sentence for being in possession of said guns.

How did I do?
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You failed to make any argument. You just spouted what you fear.

Try making the case for that.
 
Wayne Jr said:
I'm pro-gun so I will argue the gun-control side. I will keep it short and it will not be comprehensive, because I don't like reading walls of text, even my own :p

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. A few years ago the Supreme Court created an individual right to keep and bear arms, so it's in the interest of the free State to ensure those individuals, who are the militia, are well regulated. When the 2nd Amendment was written, the unorganised militia was REQUIRED to drill with their local organised militia unit once per month. Today we can use law enforcment aproved gun clubs to serve as a platform for providing that manditory training for anyone who wants to own a firearm for any reason; with additional training requierments for anyone seeking an actual carry permit. Additionaly, the modern military registers all of it's arms, and so private gun owners should likewise register their arms with their local gun club or police department. Just as the militia units of old endured reguler inspection of their arms by the authorities, so should indiviguals wishing to own weapons suitable for militia use be subject to the inspection of their arms kept in their homes.
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Well argued.

Is that you're opinion or the opposite of it?

Can a well regulated Militia have the regulations to determine that somebody is of suficently unsound mental health that they can have their guns taken away?
 
Tim the plumber said:
You failed to make any argument. You just spouted what you fear.

Try making the case for that.
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True Im not sure how I would make a case that it should be done. But I laid out the steps and process that I think will be tried to be taken to get a depopulous gun state.
 
jdog21 said:
True Im not sure how I would make a case that it should be done. But I laid out the steps and process that I think will be tried to be taken to get a depopulous gun state.
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So you did not take the challenge of this thread.

The point of doing this sort of thing, debating from the side you don't suport yourself is to get a handle on the other side's ideas better.
 
Tim the plumber said:
So you did not take the challenge of this thread.

The point of doing this sort of thing, debating from the side you don't suport yourself is to get a handle on the other side's ideas better.
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Right but I cant just make **** up. I have to use evidence to argue either side. And where is the evidence on this one side to help support it, I cant find any just sensationalism, emotional driven ques, and wishful thinking.
 
jdog21 said:
Right but I cant just make **** up. I have to use evidence to argue either side. And where is the evidence on this one side to help support it, I cant find any just sensationalism, emotional driven ques, and wishful thinking.
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Then you fail the intelligence test that this thread is.

Personally I think that is a decent reason to consider you not fit to be allowed to carry a gun. That you are so closeminded that you will always be unable to see anybody eles's perspective. That I think is likely to result in you reaching for your gun to solve problems that don't need it.
 
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