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So you want to protect your home huh? [W:297, *567*]

MrWonka

MrWonka

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Location
Charleston, SC
Gender
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Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
https://abcnews4.com/news/crime-news/witness-homeowner-killed-during-north-charleston-home-invasion

A sad tragedy. This man was a member of one of those neighborhood chat groups on facebook I'm in. I've never met the man, but his facebook page is filled with right-wing propaganda and just one week before this happened shared a video of Archie Bunker railing on gun control. The details from the article are sparse, but from what I understand at least two men entered his home around 1 in the morning, and this guy tried to play Dirty Harry only to end up getting himself shot and killed. Police believe it was a random event. A couple of thugs were likely looking for a quick score. Trying to grab a laptop a cell phone some loose change laying around. They probably didn't even think the guy was home and would have easily left without incident had he not surprised them and confronted them. This guy was a military vet. He knew how to handle guns. He knew the layout of his home better than the intruders, yet he still lost the fight.

It's obviously sad, but this is the reality you face when you decide you're going to protect your stuff. Obviously, we can't know everything that happened here, but if he stayed out of sight and just yelled at them to leave from another room they probably would have bolted once they realized someone was home. Anything he might have lost would have been covered by homeowners insurance. Instead, he tried to be a hero and lost his life.

So to recap, the odds of having your home broken into are already insanely low. Even if your home is broken into, odds are very low you'll be home. Even if you're home your odds of even getting to your gun aren't good unless you keep it loaded and on your person at all times. If you do that though you're at risk of an accidental shooting that could result in the death of yourself or a loved one. And even if you just happen to be in the right place at the right time with your loaded gun ready to defend yourself you're still starting a shootout inside your home that you could easily lose no matter how good you think you are with your gun.

Your best defense in a home invasion is not a gun. It's a deadbolt, a motion sensor light, a decent sized dog with a loud bark, and an understanding that unless you have specific enemies they are almost certainly not here to kill you.
 
Re: So you want to protect your home huh?

MrWonka said:
https://abcnews4.com/news/crime-news/witness-homeowner-killed-during-north-charleston-home-invasion

A sad tragedy. This man was a member of one of those neighborhood chat groups on facebook I'm in. I've never met the man, but his facebook page is filled with right-wing propaganda and just one week before this happened shared a video of Archie Bunker railing on gun control. The details from the article are sparse, but from what I understand at least two men entered his home around 1 in the morning, and this guy tried to play Dirty Harry only to end up getting himself shot and killed. Police believe it was a random event. A couple of thugs were likely looking for a quick score. Trying to grab a laptop a cell phone some loose change laying around. They probably didn't even think the guy was home and would have easily left without incident had he not surprised them and confronted them. This guy was a military vet. He knew how to handle guns. He knew the layout of his home better than the intruders, yet he still lost the fight.

It's obviously sad, but this is the reality you face when you decide you're going to protect your stuff. Obviously, we can't know everything that happened here, but if he stayed out of sight and just yelled at them to leave from another room they probably would have bolted once they realized someone was home. Anything he might have lost would have been covered by homeowners insurance. Instead, he tried to be a hero and lost his life.
Click to expand...

You realize this isn't how it happens every time, right? It's a single anecdote.

So to recap, the odds of having your home broken into are already insanely low. Even if your home is broken into, odds are very low you'll be home.
Click to expand...

According to the DOJ report "Victimization During Household Burglary" there are 3.7 million burglaries each year with 1 million of them happening when someone is home.

" In 7% of all household burglaries, a household member experienced some form of violent victimization". That's a far cry from insanely low odds.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vdhb.pdf

Even if you're home your odds of even getting to your gun aren't good unless you keep it loaded and on your person at all times. If you do that though you're at risk of an accidental shooting that could result in the death of yourself or a loved one. And even if you just happen to be in the right place at the right time with your loaded gun ready to defend yourself you're still starting a shootout inside your home that you could easily lose no matter how good you think you are with your gun.
Click to expand...

You keep saying "odds are low" or "risk is high" with no data to back that up. That's a poor debate method.

Your best defense in a home invasion is not a gun. It's a deadbolt, a motion sensor light, a decent sized dog with a loud bark, and an understanding that unless you have specific enemies they are almost certainly not here to kill you.
Click to expand...

That's a good plan, but you can't claim it's the "best defense" for every situation. I fully support a multi-layer defense plan which includes everything above plus living in a good neighborhood in a safe city.

That doesn't mean that a gun will never be useful in self-defense.
 
Re: So you want to protect your home huh?

You seem to be making many assumptions about the intentions of those who broke in. Multiple people breaking into a home in the middle of the night means they likely knew someone was home and brought backup just in case.
 
Re: So you want to protect your home huh?

Rucker61 said:
You realize this isn't how it happens every time, right? It's a single anecdote.
Click to expand...
Right, and your odds of dying from a single round of Russian Roulette are only 1 out of 6, but I wouldn't recommend playing it if you don't have to.


Rucker61 said:
According to the DOJ report "Victimization During Household Burglary," there are 3.7 million burglaries each year with 1 million of them happening when someone is home.
Click to expand...
There are over 300 million people in the united states. That puts your odds at about 1 in 300, and that's ignoring the reality that most of those burglaries happened because someone left a door unlocked, didn't have a dog, and didn't have a motion sensor light.

Rucker61 said:
" In 7% of all household burglaries, a household member experienced some form of violent victimization". That's a far cry from insanely low odds.
Click to expand...
It is when you acknowledge the reality that the 7% was almost exclusively made up of people who tried to defend their laptop.


Rucker61 said:
You keep saying "odds are low" or "risk is high" with no data to back that up. That's a poor debate method.
Click to expand...
You just gave me the data that supported what I said. That's an even worse debate method.


Rucker61 said:
That's a good plan, but you can't claim it's the "best defense" for every situation.
Click to expand...
Nope, just 99.999999% of them. So when you factor in the odds that keeping a loaded gun in your home at all times puts you at a risk for an accidental shooting it becomes quite clear that your odds are better without the gun.

Rucker61 said:
That doesn't mean that a gun will never be used in self-defense.
Click to expand...
Right, but it means that the odds of your gun being used in self-defense are smaller than the odds that it will be the thing that gets you killed. So if you want to increase your odds of survival don't keep a loaded gun in your house.
 
Re: So you want to protect your home huh?

Actually, it really is nobody else’s business why I have guns.
 
Re: So you want to protect your home huh?

Nap said:
You seem to be making many assumptions about the intentions of those who broke in. Multiple people breaking into a home in the middle of the night means they likely knew someone was home and brought a backup just in case.
Click to expand...

Right. "backup just in case." Those are the key words here. They didn't come there to kill this guy. They came for his stuff. They brought a gun just in case the homeowner tried to play Dirty Harry. If he wouldn't have they would not have used their "backup."
 
Re: So you want to protect your home huh?

X Factor said:
Actually, it really is nobody else’s business why I have guns.
Click to expand...

What's the matter are you running out of good excuses for your bad choices?
 
Re: So you want to protect your home huh?

MrWonka said:
Right. "backup just in case." Those are the key words here. They didn't come there to kill this guy. They came for his stuff. They brought a gun just in case the homeowner tried to play Dirty Harry. If he wouldn't have they would not have used their "backup."
Click to expand...

How do you know they didn't intend to kill anyone inside? Would be nice if you could use your mind reading abilities for the greater good and join the police force.
 
Re: So you want to protect your home huh?

MrWonka said:
https://abcnews4.com/news/crime-news/witness-homeowner-killed-during-north-charleston-home-invasion

A sad tragedy. This man was a member of one of those neighborhood chat groups on facebook I'm in. I've never met the man, but his facebook page is filled with right-wing propaganda and just one week before this happened shared a video of Archie Bunker railing on gun control. The details from the article are sparse, but from what I understand at least two men entered his home around 1 in the morning, and this guy tried to play Dirty Harry only to end up getting himself shot and killed. Police believe it was a random event. A couple of thugs were likely looking for a quick score. Trying to grab a laptop a cell phone some loose change laying around. They probably didn't even think the guy was home and would have easily left without incident had he not surprised them and confronted them. This guy was a military vet. He knew how to handle guns. He knew the layout of his home better than the intruders, yet he still lost the fight.

It's obviously sad, but this is the reality you face when you decide you're going to protect your stuff. Obviously, we can't know everything that happened here, but if he stayed out of sight and just yelled at them to leave from another room they probably would have bolted once they realized someone was home. Anything he might have lost would have been covered by homeowners insurance. Instead, he tried to be a hero and lost his life.

So to recap, the odds of having your home broken into are already insanely low. Even if your home is broken into, odds are very low you'll be home. Even if you're home your odds of even getting to your gun aren't good unless you keep it loaded and on your person at all times. If you do that though you're at risk of an accidental shooting that could result in the death of yourself or a loved one. And even if you just happen to be in the right place at the right time with your loaded gun ready to defend yourself you're still starting a shootout inside your home that you could easily lose no matter how good you think you are with your gun.

Your best defense in a home invasion is not a gun. It's a deadbolt, a motion sensor light, a decent sized dog with a loud bark, and an understanding that unless you have specific enemies they are almost certainly not here to kill you.
Click to expand...

I have good locks, several good sized dogs, a security system with cameras and motion detection alarms and guns which I am highly qualified to use, my choice. Now if you want to rely on yelling at the Intruders then that is your choice. I will make my choices and you make yours, then we are both happy.
 
Re: So you want to protect your home huh?

Pregnant woman raped in home invasion, says attacker asked if sh - WALB.com, South Georgia News, Weather, Sports
https://myfox28columbus.com/news/lo...to-rape-homeowner39s-granddaughter-10-10-2015
Homeowner tied up, beaten during violent home invasion in north Harris County | abc13.com
https://www.nbcmiami.com/multimedia/Homeowner-Beaten-During-Miramar-Home-Invasion_-Police_Miami.html
Man shot and beaten during home invasion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU0EJS3cJIc
https://www.chron.com/news/article/Homeowners-tied-up-one-beaten-in-home-invasion-10538884.php
https://www.chron.com/neighborhood/...-violent-Memorial-armed-suspects-11225886.php
https://www.khou.com/video/news/cri...s-beat-up-homeowner-in-sw-houston/285-8048080
https://www.brproud.com/news/local-...-home-invasion-on-monday-afternoon/1013187417
http://www.fox9.com/news/man-bound-beaten-during-cambridge-home-burglary
https://q13fox.com/2014/12/23/skyway-homeowner-beaten-in-home-invasion-robbery/

You want to roll over on your back and piss yourself waiting for the cops to come save you or HOPING that they will 'just' beat the **** out of you or maybe rape someone important to you...
be my guest. I only hope if something bad DOES happen to you it will ONLY happen to you, and if there is anyone else in your home a neighbor or someone else is around to come to their aid.
 
Re: So you want to protect your home huh?

Nap said:
How do you know they didn't intend to kill anyone inside? Would be nice if you could use your mind reading abilities for the greater good and join the police force.
Click to expand...

Police will generally tell you the same thing. It's not about reading minds it's about understanding the odds. Most of these crimes are committed by desperate poverty-stricken people or druggies that need a fix. If you're a young woman living alone I might be a bit more concerned, but this was a 54-year-old guy. Unless he had specific enemies(which is at least somewhat possible, it sounds like he might have been a slumlord) it's highly unlikely they came for him. Safer ways of wacking a guy than this.
 
Re: So you want to protect your home huh?

MrWonka said:
What's the matter are you running out of good excuses for your bad choices?
Click to expand...

What about his choices would be bad? There's no need for any excuse. If you don't want to have a fire arm, don't have one. If you don't want other law abiding citizens to have a fire arm, you'll need to change the constitution.
 
Re: So you want to protect your home huh?

Would Bruce Willis, Sly Stallone, and Chuck Norris depend on deadbolts, motion sensors, and yapping dogs to deter the evil that lurks out there? I think not.
 
Re: So you want to protect your home huh?

VanceMack said:
You want to roll over on your back and piss yourself waiting for the cops to come save you or HOPING that they will 'just' beat the **** out of you or maybe rape someone important to you...
be my guest. I only hope if something bad DOES happen to you it will ONLY happen to you, and if there is anyone else in your home a neighbor or someone else is around to come to their aid.
Click to expand...

I have a dog and a deadbolt. I live in a third story apartment with well-lit hallways. I'll be fine.
 
Re: So you want to protect your home huh?

kitsune said:
Would Bruce Willis, Sly Stallone, and Chuck Norris depend on deadbolts, motion sensors, and yapping dogs to deter the evil that lurks out there? I think not.
Click to expand...

You realize these people are in movies right? Movies aren't real.
 
Re: So you want to protect your home huh?

MrWonka said:
Police will generally tell you the same thing. It's not about reading minds it's about understanding the odds. Most of these crimes are committed by desperate poverty-stricken people or druggies that need a fix. If you're a young woman living alone I might be a bit more concerned, but this was a 54-year-old guy. Unless he had specific enemies(which is at least somewhat possible, it sounds like he might have been a slumlord) it's highly unlikely they came for him. Safer ways of wacking a guy than this.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with the odds, however I also don't deny the reality that there are people who place no value on life who will rape/kill you and your family if given the opportunity. There are thousands of cases where people break in and violently assault the homeowner, I would rather not rely on a criminal having mercy especially in a situation where they break in at night considering that is when you are expected to be home. During the day is a slightly different story as that is when the typical burglar tries to rob a home since the occupants are usually away at school/work and alerting them to your presence will most likely scare them off.
 
Re: So you want to protect your home huh?

humbolt said:
What about his choices would be bad?
Click to expand...

The odds of him using it for anything beneficial are lower than the odds of it being used for something tragic. In a cost-benefit analysis when the costs outweigh the benefits you consider that a bad investment choice.
 
Re: So you want to protect your home huh?

MrWonka said:
What's the matter are you running out of good excuses for your bad choices?
Click to expand...

Well, I’m glad the guy’s death could give you something to happily wag your finger over.
 
Last edited:
Re: So you want to protect your home huh?

MrWonka said:
Right, and your odds of dying from a single round of Russian Roulette are only 1 out of 6, but I wouldn't recommend playing it if you don't have to.
Click to expand...

Irrelevant. No one chooses to have their home invaded.
There are over 300 million people in the united states. That puts your odds at about 1 in 300, and that's ignoring the reality that most of those burglaries happened because someone left a door unlocked, didn't have a dog, and didn't have a motion sensor light.
Click to expand...
No, there are about 126 million households - People don't always live alone. Please prove "most of those burglaries happened because someone left a door unlocked, didn't have a dog, and didn't have a motion sensor light". Your lack of supporting data has been mentioned before.

It is when you acknowledge the reality that the 7% was almost exclusively made up of people who tried to defend their laptop.
Click to expand...
As soon as you provided any data supporting this claim, I can acknowledge it. You are not a trustworthy source. Were the rape victims in the BJS report raped for defending a laptop?

You just gave me the data that supported what I said. That's an even worse debate method.
Click to expand...
No, the BJS report supports none of your claims.
Nope, just 99.999999% of them. So when you factor in the odds that keeping a loaded gun in your home at all times puts you at a risk for an accidental shooting it becomes quite clear that your odds are better without the gun.
Click to expand...

Please provide supporting research for the 99.999999% claim.

Right, but it means that the odds of your gun being used in self-defense are smaller than the odds that it will be the thing that gets you killed. So if you want to increase your odds of survival don't keep a loaded gun in your house.
Click to expand...

Those risks may be measured against a total population but aren't useful for individuals whose circumstances may differ. If you want to reduce your chances of accidental or suicidal death, you should remove more than just guns. According to Kellermann, living alone or renting are measurably more risk than having a lawfully owned gun in the house.

And guns have more uses than self-defense.
 
Re: So you want to protect your home huh?

MrWonka said:
The odds of him using it for anything beneficial are lower than the odds of it being used for something tragic. In a cost-benefit analysis when the costs outweigh the benefits you consider that a bad investment choice.
Click to expand...

Please list all of the beneficial uses of firearms. Please show studies that remove the accounting of risks due to unlawful ownership by household members with no criminal record, and account for firearms not brought into the home by others.
 
Re: So you want to protect your home huh?

Nap said:
I don't disagree with the odds, however, I also don't deny the reality that there are people who place no value on life who will rape/kill you and your family if given the opportunity.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's where the lights, deadbolt, and the dog come in handy. Unless you have a specific enemy you're worried about like a violent ex-boyfriend or something these types of people want low hanging fruit. They want easy targets. Poorly lit streets, poorly lit porches, unlocked doors, open windows, bartenders taking out the garbage in a dark alley after the close.
 
Re: So you want to protect your home huh?

MrWonka said:
The odds of him using it for anything beneficial are lower than the odds of it being used for something tragic. In a cost-benefit analysis when the costs outweigh the benefits you consider that a bad investment choice.
Click to expand...

Odds don't enter that calculation. Odds are nearly certain that anyone invading my house will be staring down the barrel of a .45. You are free to hide under your bed if you prefer to.
 
Re: So you want to protect your home huh?

MrWonka said:
https://abcnews4.com/news/crime-news/witness-homeowner-killed-during-north-charleston-home-invasion
Click to expand...

Wonka, why do you assume that any gun owners are expecting a 100% guarantee?
Why do you assume it is sensible for ANYBODY to expect a 100 percent guarantee...OF ANYTHING?

Are YOU conditioned to expect a 100 percent guarantee on anything in life? Better check again, because not even THE BIBLE makes 100 percent guarantees on anything, in this life or even the next.
Life's a crapshoot, you get the hand of cards you get.
 
Re: So you want to protect your home huh?

MrWonka said:
You realize these people are in movies right? Movies aren't real.
Click to expand...

Oh. I had no idea. Guess I'll have to rethink this.
 
Re: So you want to protect your home huh?

MrWonka said:
https://abcnews4.com/news/crime-news/witness-homeowner-killed-during-north-charleston-home-invasion

A sad tragedy. This man was a member of one of those neighborhood chat groups on facebook I'm in. I've never met the man, but his facebook page is filled with right-wing propaganda and just one week before this happened shared a video of Archie Bunker railing on gun control. The details from the article are sparse, but from what I understand at least two men entered his home around 1 in the morning, and this guy tried to play Dirty Harry only to end up getting himself shot and killed. Police believe it was a random event. A couple of thugs were likely looking for a quick score. Trying to grab a laptop a cell phone some loose change laying around. They probably didn't even think the guy was home and would have easily left without incident had he not surprised them and confronted them. This guy was a military vet. He knew how to handle guns. He knew the layout of his home better than the intruders, yet he still lost the fight.

It's obviously sad, but this is the reality you face when you decide you're going to protect your stuff. Obviously, we can't know everything that happened here, but if he stayed out of sight and just yelled at them to leave from another room they probably would have bolted once they realized someone was home. Anything he might have lost would have been covered by homeowners insurance. Instead, he tried to be a hero and lost his life.

So to recap, the odds of having your home broken into are already insanely low. Even if your home is broken into, odds are very low you'll be home. Even if you're home your odds of even getting to your gun aren't good unless you keep it loaded and on your person at all times. If you do that though you're at risk of an accidental shooting that could result in the death of yourself or a loved one. And even if you just happen to be in the right place at the right time with your loaded gun ready to defend yourself you're still starting a shootout inside your home that you could easily lose no matter how good you think you are with your gun.

Your best defense in a home invasion is not a gun. It's a deadbolt, a motion sensor light, a decent sized dog with a loud bark, and an understanding that unless you have specific enemies they are almost certainly not here to kill you.
Click to expand...

Your motivation for posting this highly unusual outcome is simply that you hate guns.

Nobody cares.

You can die on your knees if you wish......convincing the rest of us to join you is going to be tough.

:roll::roll::roll:
 
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