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Don’t defend the cowards who abuse the Second Amendment[W:58:339]

Re: Don’t defend the cowards who abuse the Second Amendment[W:58]

danielpalos said:
Yes, it does. Why claim you are for natural rights, when you aren't.
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what I am for is irrelevant. what is important is one has to understand natural rights to understand the constitution and the Bill of Rights because the FOUNDERS believed in them and intended the BoR to guarantee them.
 
Re: Don’t defend the cowards who abuse the Second Amendment[W:58]

TurtleDude said:
what I am for is irrelevant. what is important is one has to understand natural rights to understand the constitution and the Bill of Rights because the FOUNDERS believed in them and intended the BoR to guarantee them.
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lol. so what; our Second Amendment has nothing to do with the whole and entire concept of natural rights; it expressly declares so, in the first clause.
 
Re: Don’t defend the cowards who abuse the Second Amendment[W:58]

danielpalos said:
lol. so what; our Second Amendment has nothing to do with the whole and entire concept of natural rights; it expressly declares so, in the first clause.
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wrong as usual, the second amendment was designed to guarantee the natural right of self defense
 
Re: Don’t defend the cowards who abuse the Second Amendment[W:58]

TurtleDude said:
I'd suggest trying to implement Japanese gun control would start a civil war
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First and foremost once again you are using assumptions, with absolutely no evidence to support your claim.

You are trying to argue against something that has been successful in another country by claiming it will create a civil war. No doubt the legislation cannot be duplicated to US law, however pieces and sections most definitely can be utilised as the basis of new and improved US firearm laws.

Quite simply you cannot say the Government cannot implement foreign policy within this country. Why because it has been happening for centuries. The Treaty of Versailles was ratified into domestic legislation in 1919 ruling on certain global actions that the USA was going to take, as recommended by foreign countries. Others include the International Labour Convention, Geneva Agreement, International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban, Rome Statute on the International Criminal Court, Kyto Protocol.
 
Re: Don’t defend the cowards who abuse the Second Amendment[W:58]

goldkam said:
First and foremost once again you are using assumptions, with absolutely no evidence to support your claim.

You are trying to argue against something that has been successful in another country by claiming it will create a civil war. No doubt the legislation cannot be duplicated to US law, however pieces and sections most definitely can be utilised as the basis of new and improved US firearm laws.
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You should look up how Japanese laws on weapons possession came into being.
 
Re: Don’t defend the cowards who abuse the Second Amendment[W:58]

TurtleDude said:
wrong-we want to punish those who misuse guns rather than adopting silly laws that allow politicians to pander to the weak minded with schemes that are designed not to really crack down on violent criminals (nor upset their supporters and apologists) and to harass those who don't vote for left wingers
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Sorry I will rephrase. Your policies and ideas are very reactive rather than proactive. You want to take action after the crime has occurred and the impact on society, individuals and families has already occurred. Individuals who have the same ideas as myself want to take action before the crime is committed.

Misuse of firearms is going to occur no matter the legislation put in place like background checks, limiting types of guns, mental health legislation and the like. Criminals don't care about a law that will punish them after the crime is committed. How do you stop a child from hitting his brother with a stick???? You don't continually tell them no and hope for the best, you don't let it continue happening. You remove the stick so it doesn't continue happening. The very same principles goes for drugs. The very same principles seem to be negated for firearms.
 
Re: Don’t defend the cowards who abuse the Second Amendment[W:58]

goldkam said:
Sorry I will rephrase. Your policies and ideas are very reactive rather than proactive. You want to take action after the crime has occurred and the impact on society, individuals and families has already occurred. Individuals who have the same ideas as myself want to take action before the crime is committed.

Misuse of firearms is going to occur no matter the legislation put in place like background checks, limiting types of guns, mental health legislation and the like. Criminals don't care about a law that will punish them after the crime is committed. How do you stop a child from hitting his brother with a stick???? You don't continually tell them no and hope for the best, you don't let it continue happening. You remove the stick so it doesn't continue happening. The very same principles goes for drugs. The very same principles seem to be negated for firearms.
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Be specific on what you would like to see.
 
Re: Don’t defend the cowards who abuse the Second Amendment[W:58]

Rucker61 said:
You should look up how Japanese laws on weapons possession came into being.
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I don't know the complete Japanese gun legislation history and I don't know what your are attempting to allude to. However the premise of this notion is if Japanese people want to own a gun, they must attend an all-day class, pass a written test, and achieve at least 95% accuracy during a shooting-range test. Then they have to pass a mental-health evaluation, which takes place at a hospital, and pass a background check, in which the government digs into their criminal record and interviews friends and family. They can only buy shotguns and air rifles – no handguns – and every three years they must retake the class and initial exam. This is only one part of a plethora of legislative measures.
 
Re: Don’t defend the cowards who abuse the Second Amendment[W:58]

Rucker61 said:
Be specific on what you would like to see.
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I have stated in my previous posts.

To summarise it. Australia, Japan, UK, New Zealand, India, Italy, Germany style policies implemented. This is in relation to limiting gun use by the average citizen and reducing the availability of firearms.
 
Re: Don’t defend the cowards who abuse the Second Amendment[W:58]

goldkam said:
I don't know the complete Japanese gun legislation history and I don't know what your are attempting to allude to. However the premise of this notion is if Japanese people want to own a gun, they must attend an all-day class, pass a written test, and achieve at least 95% accuracy during a shooting-range test. Then they have to pass a mental-health evaluation, which takes place at a hospital, and pass a background check, in which the government digs into their criminal record and interviews friends and family. They can only buy shotguns and air rifles – no handguns – and every three years they must retake the class and initial exam. This is only one part of a plethora of legislative measures.
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The Japanese lost the right to own a gun, along with all other civil rights, when the Tokugawa Shogunate took them away in the 16th century. If you want to use Japan as an example, you need to start there.
 
Re: Don’t defend the cowards who abuse the Second Amendment[W:58]

goldkam said:
I have stated in my previous posts.

To summarise it. Australia, Japan, UK, New Zealand, India, Italy, Germany style policies implemented. This is in relation to limiting gun use by the average citizen and reducing the availability of firearms.
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The policies that these countries have would violate Second Amendment protections. To implement those laws you'll need to change the Second Amendment.
 
Re: Don’t defend the cowards who abuse the Second Amendment[W:58]

Rucker61 said:
The Japanese lost the right to own a gun, along with all other civil rights, when the Tokugawa Shogunate took them away in the 16th century. If you want to use Japan as an example, you need to start there.
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First and foremost. You are referring to an event from the 16th century. Over 500 years ago. The times, culture, governing bodies and perceptions are much different. They lost the right to a firearm, yet they now have no more than 10 gun deaths a year, there is a clear correlation to be drawn from that. Now they may very well have lost their civil rights, I don't know their historical background, that was in the 16th century and is very much irrelevant today. We are considering today and the issues that are in play today, you start looking back into the future their is no chance of moving forward.

In 2018 and for the last 100 years Japan
1. Freedom from Press
2. Freedom of Religion
3. Freedom of movement
4. Freedom from harassment

And a plethora more.
 
Re: Don’t defend the cowards who abuse the Second Amendment[W:58]

Rucker61 said:
The policies that these countries have would violate Second Amendment protections. To implement those laws you'll need to change the Second Amendment.
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Not necessarily. The individual policies can be adapted to work around the Second Amendment. An example is Australia's Amnesty (or handing of firearms to the Government), stricter background checks, stricter proactive legislation measures about what firearms are allowed, open carry laws.

However for the greatest effect, I believe the Second Amendment has to be changed. It is the only medium in the whole firearm debate that hasn't and quite simply the firearm problem has not gotten any better (as a general trend) in the past decades.

Do you agree with the new rulings on the bump stock?
 
Re: Don’t defend the cowards who abuse the Second Amendment[W:58]

goldkam said:
First and foremost. You are referring to an event from the 16th century. Over 500 years ago. The times, culture, governing bodies and perceptions are much different. They lost the right to a firearm, yet they now have no more than 10 gun deaths a year, there is a clear correlation to be drawn from that. Now they may very well have lost their civil rights, I don't know their historical background, that was in the 16th century and is very much irrelevant today. We are considering today and the issues that are in play today, you start looking back into the future their is no chance of moving forward.

In 2018 and for the last 100 years Japan
1. Freedom from Press
2. Freedom of Religion
3. Freedom of movement
4. Freedom from harassment

And a plethora more.
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Yes, but that five hundred years has affected their culture. It's not as simple as just use the laws like they use in Japan.

Japan: Gun Control and People Control
 
Re: Don’t defend the cowards who abuse the Second Amendment[W:58]

Rucker61 said:
Yes, but that five hundred years has affected their culture. It's not as simple as just use the laws like they use in Japan.

Japan: Gun Control and People Control
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I feel you are not reading everything I am stating. I have never said "lets take the exact legislation from Japan and put into straight into America and hope for the best". I have constantly used the term "adapt" or "alter" because that is what occurs with any type of foreign policy or any legislative measure it is adapted to suit the country or needs.

How has it affected their culture exactly??? Other than reducing the gun deaths in turn limiting suicides, limiting the impact of a firearm death on a family and the mental health repercussions that occur.
 
Re: Don’t defend the cowards who abuse the Second Amendment[W:58]

goldkam said:
I feel you are not reading everything I am stating. I have never said "lets take the exact legislation from Japan and put into straight into America and hope for the best". I have constantly used the term "adapt" or "alter" because that is what occurs with any type of foreign policy or any legislative measure it is adapted to suit the country or needs.

How has it affected their culture exactly??? Other than reducing the gun deaths in turn limiting suicides, limiting the impact of a firearm death on a family and the mental health repercussions that occur.
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do you NOT know that Japan's suicide rate is higher than ours
 
Re: Don’t defend the cowards who abuse the Second Amendment[W:58]

TurtleDude said:
do you NOT know that Japan's suicide rate is higher than ours
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That is correct, suicides as a whole. That is undoubtedly a problem. However in direct relation to suicide through the use of a firearm Japan sits at 14 per year ---> USA 19,000 per year. This undoubtedly sends a strong message.
 
Re: Don’t defend the cowards who abuse the Second Amendment[W:58]

goldkam said:
Not necessarily. The individual policies can be adapted to work around the Second Amendment. An example is Australia's Amnesty (or handing of firearms to the Government), stricter background checks, stricter proactive legislation measures about what firearms are allowed, open carry laws.
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You can't cherry pick laws from other countries and expect the same total results in the US. If you're praising the Australian Amnesty, then you're praising their gun confiscation. Note that in the 20 years after the bans, the amnesty collected only 50k out of an estimated 3300k not turned in initially.

However for the greatest effect, I believe the Second Amendment has to be changed. It is the only medium in the whole firearm debate that hasn't and quite simply the firearm problem has not gotten any better (as a general trend) in the past decades.
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You are correct, to implement changes that are currently unconstitutional, you will need to change the Second Amendment. Find a recent red/blue map of the states. Start counting red states. Stop when you get to 13.

Do you agree with the new rulings on the bump stock?
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The bump stock bans I've seen also ban belt loops and sticks, so no, I can't say I agree with a ban on "bump fire devices".
 
Re: Don’t defend the cowards who abuse the Second Amendment[W:58]

goldkam said:
That is correct, suicides as a whole. That is undoubtedly a problem. However in direct relation to suicide through the use of a firearm Japan sits at 14 per year ---> USA 19,000 per year. This undoubtedly sends a strong message.
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it might be one of the reasons why US infantry did so well against the Japanese. Kids who grow up shooting tend to win gun fights with people who didn't start touching firearms until they were conscripted into the military. Since most murders involve felons and those who associate with the drug trade, I prefer our freedom over what Japanese have
 
Re: Don’t defend the cowards who abuse the Second Amendment[W:58]

goldkam said:
I feel you are not reading everything I am stating. I have never said "lets take the exact legislation from Japan and put into straight into America and hope for the best". I have constantly used the term "adapt" or "alter" because that is what occurs with any type of foreign policy or any legislative measure it is adapted to suit the country or needs.

How has it affected their culture exactly??? Other than reducing the gun deaths in turn limiting suicides, limiting the impact of a firearm death on a family and the mental health repercussions that occur.
Click to expand...

Their suicide rate is higher than ours.

Taking bits and pieces is a ridiculous process, as we only know how their rules in total work in their society. That isn't science for sure.
 
Re: Don’t defend the cowards who abuse the Second Amendment[W:58]

We have a Second Amendment and should have no security problems in our free States.
 
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