Comparing The District With The 50 States

All too often, people on this forum have tried to point out how states with less restrictive gun laws have more gun crime and vice versa. Well I am going to point this out, Washington D.C. the District of Columbia, while not a state itself does have a very high crime rate. While D.C. is more restrictive with guns than any of the 50 states it has a much higher rate of not only gun crime but violent crime in general than any of the states. So there goes the idea about more restrictive gun laws making a place safer.

DebateChallenge said:

All too often, people on this forum have tried to point out how states with less restrictive gun laws have more gun crime and vice versa. Well I am going to point this out, Washington D.C. the District of Columbia, while not a state itself does have a very high crime rate. While D.C. is more restrictive with guns than any of the 50 states it has a much higher rate of not only gun crime but violent crime in general than any of the states. So there goes the idea about more restrictive gun laws making a place safer.

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Not in favor of gun control in general, but I don't think that's a satisfactory argument. D.C. is ten times more densely populated than any other state among other differences. And population density is fairly strongly correlated with crime. If you're going to isolate the effect of gun laws you have to compare at least somewhat alike areas.

DebateChallenge said:

All too often, people on this forum have tried to point out how states with less restrictive gun laws have more gun crime and vice versa. Well I am going to point this out, Washington D.C. the District of Columbia, while not a state itself does have a very high crime rate. While D.C. is more restrictive with guns than any of the 50 states it has a much higher rate of not only gun crime but violent crime in general than any of the states. So there goes the idea about more restrictive gun laws making a place safer.

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You do know you can drive 20 minutes and get any gun you want if you are in DC.....don't you? LOL

DebateChallenge said:

All too often, people on this forum have tried to point out how states with less restrictive gun laws have more gun crime and vice versa. Well I am going to point this out, Washington D.C. the District of Columbia, while not a state itself does have a very high crime rate. While D.C. is more restrictive with guns than any of the 50 states it has a much higher rate of not only gun crime but violent crime in general than any of the states. So there goes the idea about more restrictive gun laws making a place safer.

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Sorry but your theory goes out the window when surrounding areas have lax gun control laws and they can easily buy them from the surrounding areas and bring them in.

And no, I am not for banning ANY guns but to act like there is no other correlation to higher gun crimes due to more availability of guns in the immediate surrounding area is just as idiotic.

vegas giants said:

You do know you can drive 20 minutes and get any gun you want if you are in DC.....don't you? LOL

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To buy handguns in a state you have to be a resident of that state so a DC resident will not be able to buy handguns outside of DC. You can sometimes buy long guns in a state you don't live in although Im not sure what states if any will sell to DC residents.

Anagram said:

Not in favor of gun control in general, but I don't think that's a satisfactory argument. D.C. is ten times more densely populated than any other state among other differences. And population density is fairly strongly correlated with crime. If you're going to isolate the effect of gun laws you have to compare at least somewhat alike areas.

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Well than that just goes to show that its population density not lax gun laws that correlates with high crime. And this is further demonstrated in states with high gun crime, the vast majority of the gun crimes are in the highly dense city areas not in the rural areas which have very low population density.

Praxas said:

Sorry but your theory goes out the window when surrounding areas have lax gun control laws and they can easily buy them from the surrounding areas and bring them in.

And no, I am not for banning ANY guns but to act like there is no other correlation to higher gun crimes due to more availability of guns in the immediate surrounding area is just as idiotic.

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As I pointed out in post #5 you cannot buy handguns in a state where you don't reside so people living in DC cannot get handguns from any of the surrounding states and gun control advocates like to point out how handguns are the kinds of guns that are most often used in crime.

DebateChallenge said:

To buy handguns in a state you have to be a resident of that state so a DC resident will not be able to buy handguns outside of DC. You can sometimes buy long guns in a state you don't live in although Im not sure what states if any will sell to DC residents.

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Private sales are easy. Plus it is easy to have a gang member that lives in Virginia buy all your guns

DebateChallenge said:

As I pointed out in post #5 you cannot buy handguns in a state where you don't reside so people living in DC cannot get handguns from any of the surrounding states and gun control advocates like to point out how handguns are the kinds of guns that are most often used in crime.

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Yeah, and it's illegal to use a gun in a crime too that doesn't stop people from using it just like it doesn't stop people in gun rich states from selling them illegally.

=Praxas;1068764901]Sorry but your theory goes out the window when surrounding areas have lax gun control laws and they can easily buy them from the surrounding areas and bring them in.

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Easy fix. Just pass a law that makes it illegal for criminals to walk into gun stores and buy guns. OH WAIT! Well we could make it illegal for criminals to take them(guns) across state lines. OH WAIT! When the law abiding start doing that for a living then they are no longer law abiding. Mostly the law abiding aren't the problem.

And no, I am not for banning ANY guns but to act like there is no other correlation to higher gun crimes due to more availability of guns in the immediate surrounding area is just as idiotic.

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Higher gun crimes has a lot to do with higher criminality. Most people don't just wake up one day and decide to commit a gun crime.

zsu2357 said:

Easy fix. Just pass a law that makes it illegal for criminals to walk into gun stores and buy guns. OH WAIT! Well we could make it illegal for criminals to take them(guns) across state lines. OH WAIT! When the law abiding start doing that for a living then they are no longer law abiding. Mostly the law abiding aren't the problem.

Higher gun crimes has a lot to do with higher criminality. Most people don't just wake up one day and decide to commit a gun crime.

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Dumbest post ever

vegas giants said:

Private sales are easy. Plus it is easy to have a gang member that lives in Virginia buy all your guns

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Alright if that's the case than tell me this, in previous posts you've claimed that NYC is one of the safest cities in the country. If people in D.C. are getting guns through private sales and from out of state, why aren't people in NYC doing the same thing?

vegas giants said:

You do know you can drive 20 minutes and get any gun you want if you are in DC.....don't you? LOL

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DC folks who want easy access to guns = a drive to almost anywhere in Virginia.
You can get em in Maryland too but it's so easy to get them in Virginia that almost no one goes to MD.

Chicago? It's a forty minute drive to a gun shop in Indiana, even at the worst time of day.

Every goddamned city in the country that has strict gun regulations is cursed with a neighboring state where literally ANYONE can get a gun with almost no checks or investigations. It's actually almost pointless for these areas to even try, especially when the same group of people continually yammer with the same "I dunno, so and so has stwick gun laws, wook at all dah kwime dey have."

This is called "playing dumb".

DebateChallenge said:

To buy handguns in a state you have to be a resident of that state so a DC resident will not be able to buy handguns outside of DC. You can sometimes buy long guns in a state you don't live in although Im not sure what states if any will sell to DC residents.

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I still have longtime childhood friends in the DC-MD-VA area.
If you actually want to test your theory out, I think I could ask one of them to take you to a place in Virginia where you should have little to no difficulty purchasing any guns you want, as many as you want.

Do you live in the area?

DebateChallenge said:

Alright if that's the case than tell me this, in previous posts you've claimed that NYC is one of the safest cities in the country. If people in D.C. are getting guns through private sales and from out of state, why aren't people in NYC doing the same thing?

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Because NYC is surrounded by states with strict gun control. You have to drive about two hours at least to get past them

Checkerboard Strangler said:

I still have longtime childhood friends in the DC-MD-VA area.
If you actually want to test your theory out, I think I could ask one of them to take you to a place in Virginia where you should have little to no difficulty purchasing any guns you want, as many as you want.

Do you live in the area?

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It is illegal to purchase a handgun in a state in which you are not a resident. Are you claiming that people break this law?

Rucker61 said:

It is illegal to purchase a handgun in a state in which you are not a resident. Are you claiming that people break this law?

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Of course they do. Or they simply do private sales, and not all states have restrictions on private exchange of firearms.
I'm taking issue with the stupidity of running around and pretending that cities have high crime "despite having strict gun laws" as if somehow it was THE STRICT GUN LAWS that caused all the crime. Because that's what it sounds like when you read that nonsense.
The reason areas with strict gun laws still have a lot of crime is because it is incredibly easy to get your hands on guns in states where the gun laws are lax.
Cities have high crime because they have high crime, getting rid of the strict gun laws won't magically make the crime disappear, just as the strict guns laws won't prevent the crime either. Almost every city has a lovely and exclusive section, a working class section, and a ****hole section of town. Most of the crime usually happens in the ****hole section of town. This is not a surprise!

You and I are NOT strangers on gun issues. You've no doubt read some of the ideas I've pushed, such as strengthening current databases and implementing a "no gun list" for people deemed a hazard by qualified law enforcement personnel.
No, it won't solve the entire problem but it may very well put a dent in it and that's maybe the best we can hope for.

Running around playing dumb about how cities with strict gun laws magically have more crime because of the strict gun laws is utter nonsense.
And, I'd also like to point out that it's a matter of degree, too.
I happen to think that California is too strict on concealed carry (translation: impossible to get) and they need to loosen up their half-decent "castle doctrine" to include a person's place of business. I also happen to think there is a possibility that we might just see that happen.
A homeowner in California is protected if they shoot an intruder, but shopkeepers and other business owners should be protected as well.

The point I'm getting at is, we need to debate "smart" on this, not throw around nonsensical worn out tropes back and forth.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

Of course they do. Or they simply do private sales, and not all states have restrictions on private exchange of firearms.

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The handgun law is a federal law.

I'm taking issue with the stupidity of running around and pretending that cities have high crime "despite having strict gun laws" as if somehow it was THE STRICT GUN LAWS that caused all the crime. Because that's what it sounds like when you read that nonsense.

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It's a response to the claim that states with "law laws" are the problem, when 2/3 of the guns in Illinois, for example, traced by ATF come from Illinois, and about 10 felonies are committed buying handguns in Indiana and taken back to Illinois for sale.

The reason areas with strict gun laws still have a lot of crime is because it is incredibly easy to get your hands on guns in states where the gun laws are lax.

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It's incredibly easy, period. New York, New Jersey, California and Maryland are all their largest single state source of traced handguns from each state.

Cities have high crime because they have high crime, getting rid of the strict gun laws won't magically make the crime disappear, just as the strict guns laws won't prevent the crime either. Almost every city has a lovely and exclusive section, a working class section, and a ****hole section of town. Most of the crime usually happens in the ****hole section of town. This is not a surprise!

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If only we could get both sides to understand this.

You and I are NOT strangers on gun issues. You've no doubt read some of the ideas I've pushed, such as strengthening current databases and implementing a "no gun list" for people deemed a hazard by qualified law enforcement personnel.
No, it won't solve the entire problem but it may very well put a dent in it and that's maybe the best we can hope for.

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Those are options, but if we can't get the feds and the big cities to enforce the laws, nothing really will improve.

Running around playing dumb about how cities with strict gun laws magically have more crime because of the strict gun laws is utter nonsense.
And, I'd also like to point out that it's a matter of degree, too.
I happen to think that California is too strict on concealed carry (translation: impossible to get) and they need to loosen up their half-decent "castle doctrine" to include a person's place of business. I also happen to think there is a possibility that we might just see that happen.
A homeowner in California is protected if they shoot an intruder, but shopkeepers and other business owners should be protected as well.

The point I'm getting at is, we need to debate "smart" on this, not throw around nonsensical worn out tropes back and forth.

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Surprisingly in quite a few California counties residents don't find it that difficult to get CCW licenses. It's the counties dominated by big city politics that get the most attention, though.

Praxas said:

Sorry but your theory goes out the window when surrounding areas have lax gun control laws and they can easily buy them from the surrounding areas and bring them in.

And no, I am not for banning ANY guns but to act like there is no other correlation to higher gun crimes due to more availability of guns in the immediate surrounding area is just as idiotic.

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I wouldn't assume they are going to VA and MD to buy guns legitimately, getting background checks, licenses. etc.
Nah.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

I still have longtime childhood friends in the DC-MD-VA area.
If you actually want to test your theory out, I think I could ask one of them to take you to a place in Virginia where you should have little to no difficulty purchasing any guns you want, as many as you want.

Do you live in the area?

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No I don't live there but I've been there many times. As for being able to purchase any and as many guns as you want in Virginia you would either have to be a Virginia resident or you would have to purchase off the illegal market. Federal law says that for all states, to get a handgun in a state you have to live in said state.

vegas giants said:

Because NYC is surrounded by states with strict gun control. You have to drive about two hours at least to get past them

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It would take maybe an hour and a half to drive from NYC to PA, maybe 2 hours with traffic. PA is not all that restrictive with guns and 2 hours is not long to drive.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

Cities have high crime because they have high crime, getting rid of the strict gun laws won't magically make the crime disappear, just as the strict guns laws won't prevent the crime either.

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Checkerboard Strangler said:

Running around playing dumb about how cities with strict gun laws magically have more crime because of the strict gun laws is utter nonsense.

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Strict gun laws make it harder for good people to fight back against crime.

DebateChallenge said:

All too often, people on this forum have tried to point out how states with less restrictive gun laws have more gun crime and vice versa. Well I am going to point this out, Washington D.C. the District of Columbia, while not a state itself does have a very high crime rate. While D.C. is more restrictive with guns than any of the 50 states it has a much higher rate of not only gun crime but violent crime in general than any of the states. So there goes the idea about more restrictive gun laws making a place safer.

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The problem is that only honest people obey the laws. Criminals are criminals because they don't. If someone murders people, robs people and stores, rapes etc. what makes someone think they will obey gun laws?

Perotista said:

The problem is that only honest people obey the laws. Criminals are criminals because they don't. If someone murders people, robs people and stores, rapes etc. what makes someone think they will obey gun laws?

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If only the gun control crowd would understand that.

Rucker61 said:

Surprisingly in quite a few California counties residents don't find it that difficult to get CCW licenses. It's the counties dominated by big city politics that get the most attention, though.

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The way it looks to me is "Suprisingly, in a FEW California counties, residents don't find it that difficult".
But for me at least, it is not the end of the world as long as they don't tinker with the castle doctrine and I think California needs to be reasonable about allowing business owners and shopkeepers the same protection as a homeowner.
If you're where you're supposed to be at home or at work, that is your castle.
I'm sure that you agree.

Thing is, as of late, there have been a number of news stories where a shopkeeper or business owner has shot a criminal, who was attempting to rob the place or break and enter, and no one got charged in the incident.
I do not remember the details but I remember it having something to do with a legal precedent that led to specific jury instructions.
You are probably more up to date on this than I am.
All I know is, a couple of stories that stick in my mind were a shopkeeper who shot a robber, and an auto mechanic shop owner who slept in his shop after being burglarized three times who shot the burglar on their fourth break-in, and both times the story said that these people were not going to be charged.
I remember the news stories because my reaction was to nod and say to my wife, "that's how it should be", and she agreed.
These stories were both in L.A. County, by the way.