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Why the Second Amendment Exists.

Uh... No, she isn't part of any militia. That's just hilarious.

Actually, male white citizens of age didn't have a choice about militia service. E.g. the Militia Act of 1792 required all male citizens aged 18 to 45 to enroll in local militias.

I have no idea what you mean with your reference to the police.

I'm not saying we should take away her rights. I'm pointing out that the ratifiers of the 2nd Amendment did not intend for women to carry concealed weapons to work for self-defense. I'm pretty sure they'd be horrified by almost everything in that sentence. We should also keep in mind that when it was ratified, the 2A only restricted the powers of Congress.

So I reiterate: The 2A is not "THAT SIMPLE." Your interpretation omits critical elements about militias, and imputes aspects that were not part of the original intent, and are not a part of the text.

you attempt to limit the right to those in the militia ignores the intent of the founders and this simple fact

how can a right that was seen as pre-existing the formation of government and organized society, require membership in an entity that requires government and organized society to exist?
 
Exactly, and since that time the US constitution has been amended to include those subsets of the people into the people. Some (now) see the 14th as having done precisely that, yet others insisted that the 19th be added (for added clarity, I suppose).

The problem now is that folks want to see all manner of things interpreted into or out of the constitution by SOTUS (5/4?) decisions as if they were explicitly included or excluded by amendment. SSM as the 'law of the land' came about in basically that manner - the SCOTUS just made it happen.

That was clearly not the founders intention - they wanted big changes to the US constitution to require amendment(s) approved by super-majoritoes of 3/4 of the states - not to have SCOTUS 5/4 (squeaker?) split decisions to establish 'precedent' (serving basically the same function as an amendment) instead.

But what about the founders intent?
 
lol

There is no such thing as a "general militia."

Sorry, but pretty much everything you're saying is wrong. Neither gun rights, or gun control, or the 2A, are simple.

uh your attempt to limit the right is contrary to the writings of the founders, the writings of the leading legal scholars of the time (St George Tucker and Rawls for example) and contrary to every supreme court decision addressing the second amendment
 
And again... There is no "general militia."

Or are you saying that owning a firearm obligates military service? Can the government draft you because you own a gun? That is what a militia is, after all -- civilians who perform military duties.

I.e. Stop making stuff up. It really is not helping your position at all.
that's really funny coming from a poster who hasn't a clue what the second amendment means
 
But what about the founders intent?

WTF are you on about now? The founders intended to allow the amendment of the US constitution. The founders did not 'get confused' and write "the people" when they really, really meant "the states potential militia members" had a right to keep and bear arms in the 2A.
 
Exactly, and since that time the US constitution has been amended to include those subsets of the people into the people. Some (now) see the 14th as having done precisely that, yet others insisted that the 19th be added (for added clarity, I suppose).

The problem now is that folks want to see all manner of things interpreted into or out of the constitution by SOTUS (5/4?) decisions as if they were explicitly included or excluded by amendment. SSM as the 'law of the land' came about in basically that manner - the SCOTUS just made it happen.

That was clearly not the founders intention - they wanted big changes to the US constitution to require amendment(s) approved by super-majoritoes of 3/4 of the states - not to have SCOTUS 5/4 (squeaker?) split decisions to establish 'precedent' (serving basically the same function as an amendment) instead.

They did not want women having guns. Where is the amendment allowing them to have guns?
 
Explicitly it doesn't. Explicitly the 2nd refers to the right to keep and bear arms.

VIsbeck's argument is rejected by the words of the founders, every supreme court case on the subject and the words of the second amendment. On top of that his idiotic interpretation runs counter to the underlying foundation of natural rights the founders built the constitution upon
 
Sure there is....
Oh, really? Where does US law refer to this "general militia?" Why doesn't anything in the Constitution refer to this "general militia?" Why is the only instance I can find of this "general militia" by some dude on YouTube with a huge beard?

Who is in charge of the "general militia?" When do you muster? Why didn't I receive any notice that I apparently belong to this "general militia?" Or do I have to buy a gun first?

Is the "general militia" empowered to act as law enforcement agents? That is what the OP is saying, after all -- that when a woman used a concealed firearm to defend herself, she was acting as part of the "general militia."

I.e. this might be a good time to stop clutching at straws.


The first definition is that which has evolved into our national guard.
Sorry, that's not correct. National Guard is a professional military organization. It's not a militia.


The third is where we get our regular army. The third (proposed by many --most famously Thomas Jefferson) is necessary to confirm the understanding that Americans are loyal to the State out of choice and not compulsion.
Yeah, about all that....

First, our regular army is a professional army. Militias are, by definition, made up of civilians.

Second, in case you missed it, conscription was a routine feature of our military services for decades. Citizens were forced into military service during the Civil War, WWI, WWI, the Korean War and the Vietnam War. We switched to a volunteer army not because of Jefferson, but because of backlash from the loss of the Vietnam War.

Jefferson was an opponent of standing armies. However, I don't recall any situation where he cited an Internet dictionary's definition as a basis for a volunteer militia. I don't suppose you can identify the origin of this famous proposal...?
 
Explicitly it doesn't. Explicitly the 2nd refers to the right to keep and bear arms.
...yes, in the context of ensuring that militias can operate. Please try to keep up.
 
Did they want women to have guns

It does not matter - since that has been changed by the 14th amendment.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Do you believe that 'all persons' excluded adult females? Who are 'the people' if not 'all persons'?
 
No it didn't. That would be the first. There are no limits on the 2nd. That's what shall not be infringed means.
lTry again. There is no question whatsoever that there were and are limitations to the protections offered by the 2nd Amendment.

• Since you are unfamiliar with constitutional law: The Bill of Rights only applied to Congress, until the 14th Amendment incorporated those amendments to the states. Even then, it required decades and numerous SCOTUS rulings to do so. The 2nd Amendment was not incorporated until 2010.

• There is no question that municipal, state and federal governments can regulate firearms and other weapons. What they can't do is pass laws that are so onerous that it prevents citizens from owning certain types of firearms (notably handguns and some types of rifles).

None of the rights enumerated in the Constitution are unlimited.
 
In modern parlance you are simply...wrong. Intentionally/willfully/deliberately so or just uneducated, but the MODERN US Code specifically describes both the Unorganized militia and the Organized militias.
Yeah, about that? An individual using a firearm to defend herself from a criminal is not acting, in any way shape or form, as a member of any militia.

Even if she literally was a member of a militia? In that specific situation, she wasn't acting as a member of a militia. She wasn't fighting against a foreign invasion, or working to overthrow a corrupt government.

We could say that "she has the right to bear arms because she might participate in a militia." That's the interpretation used by the courts for decades. However, that is a long way from the OP's incorrect claim that "the 2A was written specifically to protect an individual right to self-defense."


However...going back to when the 2nd Amendment was written there is no question that the militia was 'the people'. We know that because we ALSO know for a fact that the organized militias werent even formed or codified until years later. That...and we have the founding fathers own words stating who the militia is.
Yeah, about that? The militias were not quite the same thing as "the people." It was a subset of the people, namely white free males aged 18 to 45. No girls allowed.

The militias existed long before the Revolutionary War. Many dated back to the 17th century.

Times have changed, including allowing women to serve in the military. However, it is exactly these kinds of changes, not to mention all sorts of jurisprudence, which ought to make it clear that that very little about the 2A is "simple."
 
Did they want women to have guns

Probably. I doubt that any woman living outside the major cities and a good many living inside wasn't familiar with firearms and they certainly took up arms during the Revolution.

That;s the best I can do. Any more data needed, you'll have to ask the founders.
 
Probably. I doubt that any woman living outside the major cities and a good many living inside wasn't familiar with firearms and they certainly took up arms during the Revolution.

That;s the best I can do. Any more data needed, you'll have to ask the founders.

Yeah....they were big fighters in the revolutionary war. Lol
 
Dude, open a book and read,
District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)
I have read it. And the dissents. And analysis of it. And about its impact on existing laws. And histories of the 2A.

• Scalia twisted the history and jurisprudence to his own ideological views, in what can only be described as an astoundingly hypocritical act of judicial activism.

• The term "general militia" is never used in Heller.

Heller radically reinterpreted the 2nd Amendment.

• Explaining Heller, and its relationship to the text of the 2A, is exactly the kind of thing that makes it not "SIMPLE" to discuss the legal import of the 2A.

• Sorry to nit-pick, but... Heller isn't a book. It's a judicial opinion, available as a PDF. :mrgreen:
 
Miller affirmed the individual right to keep and bear arms. Cruikshank pointed out that the government wasn't empowered to restrict the arms of the people.
Miller did not affirm any individual right. It said that the federal government was empowered to regulate firearms, specifically derived from its power to regulate militias. Thus, Miller could be tried in federal courts for having a sawed-off shotgun. This is one reason why Heller was so radical, because major rulings like Miller did not establish any individual protection based on the 2A.

Cruikshank also said nothing about individual rights. It said exactly what I've said here: "The Second Amendment means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress, and has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the National Government." It did not protect any individual rights; what it did was say that the 2nd Amendment was not incorporated to the states. This was not changed until after Heller.
 
Arguments that "the people" means different things in different places within the constitution and its several amendments is weak at best.
Erm... Yeah, that's not my argument in response to the OP.
 
Erm... Yeah, that's not my argument in response to the OP.

The 2A exists so that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".
 
Miller did not affirm any individual right. It said that the federal government was empowered to regulate firearms, specifically derived from its power to regulate militias. Thus, Miller could be tried in federal courts for having a sawed-off shotgun. This is one reason why Heller was so radical, because major rulings like Miller did not establish any individual protection based on the 2A.

Miller appealed his conviction based on an individual right to keep and bear arms. If that interpretation didn't exist, SCOTUS wouldn't have recognized his standing to appeal.

Cruikshank also said nothing about individual rights. It said exactly what I've said here: "The Second Amendment means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress, and has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the National Government." It did not protect any individual rights; what it did was say that the 2nd Amendment was not incorporated to the states. This was not changed until after Heller.

The Second Amendment cannot and did not protect the militia's rights to arms, as Congress was given full power to restrict the organization and arms of the militia per Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution.

If the Second Amendment only protected the rights of the collective, then the major federal legislation to restrict those rights would have mentioned the word "militia". That word isn't found in NFA 1934, GCA 1968, Brady Act 1992 or the 1994 AWB. Why is that? If there is no individual right to bear arms, why isn't militia membership required as part of a background check?
 
Then you probably shouldn't have raised it...

"Outcomes don't matter?" What the what?

You're claiming that violence is the only option. I'm telling you that non-violence not only works, it works better than violence.

Or perhaps you are inchoately suggesting that gun ownership is a prophylactic against autocracy? If so, that doesn't hold up either. Yemen, Saudi Arabia and Iraq all have high gun ownership rates, and are autocracies. Japan, India, and most European nations have low gun ownership rates, and are in no way under threat to lose their democratic governments. In fact, I can't think of any examples where citizen ownership of firearms stopped a democratic nation from turning into an autocracy.

And no, the American revolutionary example isn't terribly persuasive on that point. The existence of colonial militias obviously did not stop the English Parliament from repeatedly taking heavy-handed actions that riled many of the colonists, or strike such fear that the Brits immediately capitulated. The colonial militias were in sad shape at the start; the laws were inconsistently enforced, the citizens older and poorly trained, and materiel (including ammo) in short supply. (Washington regularly complained about poor discipline.) Much of the success was because France armed the US and took advantage of the situation to harry their ancient foes; even with that aid, the war was long and difficult, and the outcome far from certain -- even at the very end.

And of course, within 20 years after the end of the war, the Republicans were accusing the Federalists of moving towards autocracy -- and not without some reason, given the suppression of the Whiskey Rebellion, and passage of the Sedition Acts.

I.e. the American experience is not a great example of "arming citizens prevents dictatorships."

Better luck next time.

American experience is good example of how revolution turned out.

Certainly violence is not the only or best way.

"Speak softly and carry a big stick."

why can't you?

I have mental health issues.

Miller appealed his conviction based on an individual right to keep and bear arms. If that interpretation didn't exist, SCOTUS wouldn't have recognized his standing to appeal.

The Second Amendment cannot and did not protect the militia's rights to arms, as Congress was given full power to restrict the organization and arms of the militia per Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution.

If the Second Amendment only protected the rights of the collective, then the major federal legislation to restrict those rights would have mentioned the word "militia". That word isn't found in NFA 1934, GCA 1968, Brady Act 1992 or the 1994 AWB. Why is that? If there is no individual right to bear arms, why isn't militia membership required as part of a background check?

You'all sound like a bunch of Baptists thumping about their "Word."
 
The 2A exists so that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".
And again, that's not part of my argument.

The OP is incorrectly claiming that the purpose of the 2A is to allow people to defend themselves against criminals. However, it is quite clear from the text of the amendment itself, as well as the first draft, and discussions of the amendment by the Senate, and the context of the laws, and comparisons to state constitutions, that the 2nd Amendment is focused on ensuring that militias have sufficient arms to function.

The OP's argument is like saying "the primary purpose of the First Amendment is to allow private clubs to discriminate as much as they want on the basis of race, gender, or any other characteristic, IT'S THAT SIMPLE." In fact, that aspect of the right of association was only articulated much later, and the legal reasoning for it is actually somewhat involved.
 
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