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Woman Stops Attempted Rape With A Gun

Name one developed country with a complete gun ban.

True, every country allows some guns (often long guns for hunting / sport). My point is that the laws are much much stricter in most other countries for gun ownership, so much so that number of guns per 100 people in US dwarfs much of the rest of developed world.

(as a side anecdotal evidence, all people I know from Europe don't personally know a single person with gun and view US as a wild west when it comes to gun ownership / use - but yes, this is anecdotal only)

So yes, my statement was overly exaggerated. Good catch and my apologies.
 
Criminals shouldn't have access to guns and that's the way it is now, its illegal for criminals to possess guns so we need to enforce that. We need to enforce it while not infringing on the rights of law abiding people.

You imagine there is a clear distinction between criminals and not. A regular person, that happens to be overly angry one day, when given access to a gun, might go off and start shooting and become a murderer. Without a gun, they might just wave their fists or even just do nothing and cool off. Guns make it EASIER for someone to become a criminal.

All those high school mass shooters, without access to guns, while clearly would have issues, may not have become mass murderers ever in their lives.

So you're saying close to 100% of the people who had shootouts at their school or who have had drive by shootings on their streets, that its their first time. If that's true than that means the vast majority of the people who have experienced shootouts are not people who have experienced them before. So close to 0% of the people who are in shootouts have been in shootouts before. That means its a once in a lifetime thing for most people who even experience shootouts although for most people in this country its a zero in a lifetime thing.

Let me see if I got this... Yes, all those kids ONLY had to go through mass shootings in their high schools once. So, not biggie, right? And those 8 kids a day that DIE from guns ONLY die once. Uh huh.... and?

It does something. While I and others like me might not be able to change the minds of all the 1.7 million households we can at least change some minds. There are procedures for doing that. For instance, in some cases when you buy a gun it might come with a trigger lock or chamber lock.

Those people don't seem to care about the locks. Perhaps because they are thinking of your example of someone having a knife their their child's throat and they don't want to fiddle with the locks when the guns are needed for self-defense quickly... And in any case, trigger locks may only make things worse in other ways too.

No it doesn't. If criminals don't have access to guns they will just use other means such as bombs. Bombs can be homemade and they often are in the case of criminal use. Back in 1990 there was a case of somebody using gasoline that you can buy at a gas station and lighting up a dance club and killing 89 people, more people than have ever been killed in a mass shooting in the USA.

Yes, you won't eliminate all ways to kill people in mass. But the point is it would reduce killings and injuries because without EASY way to kill, there would be LESS killings. High school kid could try to set the high school on fire but it's much harder to really kill the ones they want to kill that way. Or if some angry person pulls a gun on you in the heat of an argument, it's unlikely they'd run home and start running after you with a set of matches. Yes, there is always the uni bomber but that's a RARE case, much less prevelant that gun kills.

First of all, for your idea to work they would have to offer enough money per gun for people to want to turn them in. They would certainly have to offer at least as much money per gun as the person spent when they bought the gun and probably much more. That being said, do you know how much people would take advantage of that? Many, I would say perhaps most gun owners who turn in any guns in such an instance would only turn in some of their guns so they can get some good cash but not turn in all their guns. So we would use up lots of money and there would still be lots of people with guns.

Possible but with harsh punishment for owning, it would further pursuade people their guns may only get them to trouble. Also, over time, having less guns in circulation helps too. Today a dad with 10 guns could give a some to each child, each of which could give one or two to each grandchild. If people did what you said, there would be only 1 gun available for the offspring.

If by valid you mean practical and feasible than no its not valid its just a pipe dream. There is no way to get enough people to agree with your idea and any attempt to pass the kind of ban you talk about would be met with such a backlash it would never pass. And besides, I don't know of any country that has a total gun ban except perhaps communist countries.

Yes, but even much stricter gun laws that other countries have resulted in much lower gun death rates.
 
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(as a side anecdotal evidence, all people I know from Europe don't personally know a single person with gun and view US as a wild west when it comes to gun ownership / use - but yes, this is anecdotal only)
You do know there wasn't much shootouts in the wild west. Its not like what the movies make it out to be. In Dodge City, a city famous for having shootouts, there were only six shootouts. The sheriffs would most of the times just arrest drunks.
 
You imagine there is a clear distinction between criminals and not. A regular person, that happens to be overly angry one day, when given access to a gun, might go off and start shooting and become a murderer. Without a gun, they might just wave their fists or even just do nothing and cool off. Guns make it EASIER for someone to become a criminal.

All those high school mass shooters, without access to guns, while clearly would have issues, may not have become mass murderers ever in their lives.
So what you're saying is that when somebody has a gun they're more likely to get mad and they're more likely to fly off the handle. On the contrary, from my experience when people have guns they are less likely to fly off the handle and much more likely to control themselves because they know they have the capability to kill and so they're extra careful. I know this one fellow who said that he's been in situations where if he wasn't carrying a gun he might've taken a swing at somebody, but since he was carrying he was extra careful not to escalate the situation.


Let me see if I got this... Yes, all those kids ONLY had to go through mass shootings in their high schools once. So, not biggie, right? And those 8 kids a day that DIE from guns ONLY die once. Uh huh.... and?
My point is, it happens much less than what you might think.

Those people don't seem to care about the locks. Perhaps because they are thinking of your example of someone having a knife their their child's throat and they don't want to fiddle with the locks when the guns are needed for self-defense quickly... And in any case, trigger locks may only make things worse in other ways too.
Alright than chamber locks. I don't care much for trigger locks myself but I do like chamber locks. And they do make safes that can quickly be opened by an authorized person but otherwise are securely locked.

Yes, you won't eliminate all ways to kill people in mass. But the point is it would reduce killings and injuries because without EASY way to kill, there would be LESS killings. High school kid could try to set the high school on fire but it's much harder to really kill the ones they want to kill that way. Or if some angry person pulls a gun on you in the heat of an argument, it's unlikely they'd run home and start running after you with a set of matches. Yes, there is always the uni bomber but that's a RARE case, much less prevelant that gun kills.
Guns aren't the only easy way to kill. If a high school kid doesn't have a gun, whats to stop them from driving a truck into a crowd of students when school gets out?

Possible but with harsh punishment for owning, it would further pursuade people their guns may only get them to trouble. Also, over time, having less guns in circulation helps too. Today a dad with 10 guns could give a some to each child, each of which could give one or two to each grandchild. If people did what you said, there would be only 1 gun available for the offspring.
You suggest capital punishment for the possession of guns. You do know that could very possibly result in civil war. And as for having less guns in circulation over time that will never happen because to do that you would need to shut down the gun companies and those companies are big corporations that will never shut down and that do have lots of political influence.

Yes, but even much stricter gun laws that other countries have resulted in much lower gun death rates.
Lower gun death rates perhaps but not necessarily lower death rates overall.

You do also realize that the attitudes of the people in those countries are different than the attitudes of the people in the USA. Trying to impose the same gun laws here would result in tremendous backlashes.
 
You do know there wasn't much shootouts in the wild west. Its not like what the movies make it out to be. In Dodge City, a city famous for having shootouts, there were only six shootouts. The sheriffs would most of the times just arrest drunks.

I did not know that. But of course the references they make to the "wild west" is like what's described in the movies, despite how it really was.
 
So what you're saying is that when somebody has a gun they're more likely to get mad and they're more likely to fly off the handle.

Absolutely not. I did not say that. I said that WHEN people get mad and fly off the handle, if they have ready access to gun, SOME will use the gun resulting in more injuries and deaths.

My point is, it happens much less than what you might think.

It happens with 8 child deaths / day, as we already discussed.

Alright than chamber locks. I don't care much for trigger locks myself but I do like chamber locks. And they do make safes that can quickly be opened by an authorized person but otherwise are securely locked.

I am all for safety improvements. But so far only thing that showed to reduce deaths is comprehensive gun control reforms. If chamber locks have same effect, which I doubt very much, I'd be happy with that.

Guns aren't the only easy way to kill. If a high school kid doesn't have a gun, whats to stop them from driving a truck into a crowd of students when school gets out?

Never said it was only way to kill. I just said it's easiest. Trucks have not been used nearly as much in countries with strict gun control laws. Guessing it's because it's much harder to target specific kids you don't like while driving a truck and because it's much harder to both steal a truck and drive it into the right crowd at the right time.

You suggest capital punishment for the possession of guns. You do know that could very possibly result in civil war. And as for having less guns in circulation over time that will never happen because to do that you would need to shut down the gun companies and those companies are big corporations that will never shut down and that do have lots of political influence.

maybe. maybe not. If so, it's too bad.

Lower gun death rates perhaps but not necessarily lower death rates overall.

Huh? Yes, deaths because of cancer are probably similar. And more generally, everyone dies at some point. But how is that relevant?

You do also realize that the attitudes of the people in those countries are different than the attitudes of the people in the USA. Trying to impose the same gun laws here would result in tremendous backlashes.

Initially yes. Then, not.
 
I did not know that. But of course the references they make to the "wild west" is like what's described in the movies, despite how it really was.

Well in the real USA its not like that either. I've been to Front Sight in Pahrump, NV many times. Everybody's got guns there and the only shootouts there are the ones done at the paper targets.
 
Absolutely not. I did not say that. I said that WHEN people get mad and fly off the handle, if they have ready access to gun, SOME will use the gun resulting in more injuries and deaths.
From both my observations and from my own experience, when people have access to guns they are more careful than ever to exercise self control. When you've got access to the power that comes with guns you know how important it is to control yourself.

It happens with 8 child deaths / day, as we already discussed.
And that's why I think we should enforce our existing laws and encourage safety. In some states its illegal to leave a loaded gun within easy access of a minor.

I am all for safety improvements. But so far only thing that showed to reduce deaths is comprehensive gun control reforms. If chamber locks have same effect, which I doubt very much, I'd be happy with that.
We need to enforce what laws we've got and encourage safety.

Never said it was only way to kill. I just said it's easiest. Trucks have not been used nearly as much in countries with strict gun control laws. Guessing it's because it's much harder to target specific kids you don't like while driving a truck and because it's much harder to both steal a truck and drive it into the right crowd at the right time.
Trucks aren't used in countries with strict gun control? Do you know about the truck ramming at London Bridge last year? And you don't need to steal trucks, somebody could lawfully own or rent a truck and use it for that purpose. And if a demented student at a school wants to run over specific kids they don't like, if they happen to hit other kids that are in the way they wont care. And they don't need a truck, a car would work as well although a truck would probably kill more people.

maybe. maybe not. If so, it's too bad.
I don't see most of the gun crowd, which is quite big in the USA, complying with what you mention.

Huh? Yes, deaths because of cancer are probably similar. And more generally, everyone dies at some point. But how is that relevant?
Put it this way, the USA might have the more gun deaths than other countries, but are overall causes of death other than old age (whether its from guns or not is irrelevant) lower in other countries?

Initially yes. Then, not.
With the gun culture as strong as it is in the USA for it to change and shrink to the point where there would not be backlashes if they tried to pass the same kinds of gun laws that they've got in other countries such as the UK or Japan. That is, if the gun culture ever does shrink to that point. It will certainly not happen anytime in our lifetimes.
 
...put it this way, the USA might have the more gun deaths than other countries, but are overall causes of death other than old age (whether its from guns or not is irrelevant) lower in other countries?

Yes


The USA has a higher death rate than other countries due to heart disease.


Not sure what this has to do with the tens of thousands killed by guns in the USA per year compared with a hand ful per year in other developed countries.
 
Yes


The USA has a higher death rate than other countries due to heart disease.


Not sure what this has to do with the tens of thousands killed by guns in the USA per year compared with a hand ful per year in other developed countries.

And since I don't use guns to kill people, or anything else to kill people for that matter, I shouldn't be prohibited from getting guns.
 
Not sure what this has to do with the tens of thousands killed by guns in the USA per year compared with a hand ful per year in other developed countries.
And why should it make a difference if a country is developed or not?
 
And since I don't use guns to kill people, or anything else to kill people for that matter, I shouldn't be prohibited from getting guns.

gun bans mean all lawful shooting sports, hunting and self defense with firearms will be illegal. gun bans don't disarm criminals -they already are subject to federal felonies for possessing a firearm

now tell me this

why do gun banners push gun bans when its obvious that Gun bans disarm honest people but not criminals?
 
From both my observations and from my own experience, when people have access to guns they are more careful than ever to exercise self control. When you've got access to the power that comes with guns you know how important it is to control yourself.

Sure, for some people. But clearly people that shoot up a classroom or a neighbor did not exercise that self-control. And when they don't, the consequences are deadly. Literally.

And that's why I think we should enforce our existing laws and encourage safety. In some states its illegal to leave a loaded gun within easy access of a minor.

I wonder how many prosecutions happened based on such laws when no (other) crime was ever committed. In other words, is there many cases where someone gets prosecuted for leaving loaded gun (or gun + ammo?) next to a minor, even though minor had not (yet) committed a crime with it?

We need to enforce what laws we've got and encourage safety.

I won't object to that.

Trucks aren't used in countries with strict gun control? Do you know about the truck ramming at London Bridge last year? And you don't need to steal trucks, somebody could lawfully own or rent a truck and use it for that purpose. And if a demented student at a school wants to run over specific kids they don't like, if they happen to hit other kids that are in the way they wont care. And they don't need a truck, a car would work as well although a truck would probably kill more people.

You really want to compare number of deaths by those that use trucks as a weapon vs number of deaths by guns by those that use guns as a weapon? The results won't support your cause.

Put it this way, the USA might have the more gun deaths than other countries, but are overall causes of death other than old age (whether its from guns or not is irrelevant) lower in other countries?

Are you suggesting that deaths due to crime (whether gun related or not) are same in other countries vs USA? If so, I'd like to see some source of that info.

With the gun culture as strong as it is in the USA for it to change and shrink to the point where there would not be backlashes if they tried to pass the same kinds of gun laws that they've got in other countries such as the UK or Japan. That is, if the gun culture ever does shrink to that point. It will certainly not happen anytime in our lifetimes.

There are always some backlashes for every law. Often at least some people don't like the new laws and are very outspoken about it.
 
gun bans mean all lawful shooting sports, hunting and self defense with firearms will be illegal. gun bans don't disarm criminals -they already are subject to federal felonies for possessing a firearm

now tell me this

why do gun banners push gun bans when its obvious that Gun bans disarm honest people but not criminals?

Answered here.
 
I think you will find that guns are used just about every day by private citizens to defend themselves, but you wont see it on the front page of most media sources.

No, you sure won't see it and anti-gun liberals, don't want to hear or read about it. It pops their large and flawed bubble.
 

that is pathetic. your answers are silly. you pretend destroying the hobbies and sports of millions along with those in the shooting sports trades don't matter at all
 
Yes


The USA has a higher death rate than other countries due to heart disease.


Not sure what this has to do with the tens of thousands killed by guns in the USA per year compared with a hand ful per year in other developed countries.

2/3s of gun shot deaths are self inflicted. Not something I worry about. of the one third left, the vast majority are caused by people already banned from owning guns. after you remove those and justifiable or excusable gun shot homicides, you have less than about 2000 (and some of those are perpetrated by those who are essentially professional criminals who have yet to be busted) gunshot homicides a year by those who legally owned guns at the time they killed. out of 100 million gun owners that's what in terms of percentages? .00002
 
And you should have to prove it

That would make it a privilage I shouldn't have to prove I'm a law abiding citizen to exercise my right. The burden of proof is on the government to justify why they should be allowed to deny a person their rights.
 
That would make it a privilage I shouldn't have to prove I'm a law abiding citizen to exercise my right. The burden of proof is on the government to justify why they should be allowed to deny a person their rights.

I have the right to leave and enter this country. It is my right. But I have to prove who I am to get back in
 
I have the right to leave and enter this country. It is my right. But I have to prove who I am to get back in

Ok and? You don't have to prove you're not a felon to reenter, you don't need a psyc evaluation to reenter, you are not limited to the number of reenters you are allowed to make, you can leave and reenter the same day without any waiting periods. You show less proof to reenter than to purchase weapon. So is there a point you want to make or continue to throw out one liners when you run out of legitimate points?
 
I have the right to leave and enter this country. It is my right. But I have to prove who I am to get back in

So if I can prove who I am I should be able to buy a gun? Just show my passport and walk out five minutes later?

You may be on to something, unless there's a background check to get back into the country I've missed in the 25 plus trips outside the country I've had in the last ten years.
 
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