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Background checks can’t prevent gun violence — because the NRA designed them to fail

Rogue Valley

Rogue Valley

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Background checks can’t prevent gun violence — because the NRA designed them to fail

handgun-580x385.jpg


Although long, a good read on why current gun control measures are failing us.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Background checks can’t prevent gun violence — because the NRA designed them to fail

handgun-580x385.jpg


Although long, a good read on why current gun control measures are failing us.
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From Salon:

1) Institute a national licensing and registration system. Licensing would require interviews with friends/family/co-workers, requests for letters from physicians, safety training requirements

Licensing implies government permission to exercise a right. That's unconstitutional. Letters from physicians would violate HIPAA, interviews with family and friends puts one's rights in the hands of unqualified individuals and safety training requirements are susceptible to abuse by anti-gun governments to unconstitutionally restrict the exercises of a Constitutionally protected right.

Registration is useful only in confiscation efforts, which are at the forefront of the gun control movement today.

2) Redraw the prohibited categories for gun buyers. That's up to Congress, and while well-intended, where would it end?

3) Reinstate a federal waiting period for gun sales.

Perhaps only moderately useful for first time buyers - utterly useless for anyone who already owns firearms. Are there even enough resources to increase the background investigations that are supposed to occur over these seven days for the 21 million background checks that happen each year?

The implication in the article is that we need a perfect system to prevent anyone who might turn violent in the future from purchasing a firearm. The claim might be made that "no, we don't need perfect", but every time anyone passes a BGC and then commits a crime that incident will be used to call for more gun control.

Here's the big failure of the NICS check - it's a felony to lie on the Form 4473 when trying to buy a gun. Being a convicted felon makes one a prohibited person, yet in studies we see that about 34,000 felons try to buy a gun through an FFL every year, committing a felony to do so. Of those 34k felons, about 4k are investigated. In 2010 that resulted in less than 100 prosecuted and only 10 were convicted. That leaves 34k felons still looking for guns through straw purchases, FFL diversions, illegal street sales and theft every year. Those are the folks we should be concentrating on. NICS doesn't seem to be able to block more than about 10 people from getting a gun who shouldn't have one.
 
What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you gun grabbers not understand?
 
itsforthekids said:
What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you gun grabbers not understand?
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What part of for a "well regulated militia" dont gun nuts understand?
 
Bodhisattva said:
What part of for a "well regulated militia" dont gun nuts understand?
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We have one. Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution empowers Congress, and it says:

"The Congress shall have Power To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress". By this power, Congress and only Congress can decide what "well-regulated" means with regards to the miltia. They've done so five times in our history in the various Militia Acts. The latest was in 1903, and is embodied in US law by 10 USC 311:

§311 . Militia: composition and classes
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are-

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

There is not nor has there ever been a requirement to be in the militia to own a gun, and interestingly you don't have to own a gun to be in the militia.
 
Rucker61 said:
We have one. Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution empowers Congress, and it says:

"The Congress shall have Power To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress". By this power, Congress and only Congress can decide what "well-regulated" means with regards to the miltia. They've done so five times in our history in the various Militia Acts. The latest was in 1903, and is embodied in US law by 10 USC 311:

§311 . Militia: composition and classes
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are-

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

There is not nor has there ever been a requirement to be in the militia to own a gun, and interestingly you don't have to own a gun to be in the militia.
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The Second is the requirement...
 
Bodhisattva said:
What part of for a "well regulated militia" dont gun nuts understand?
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I completely understand that without citizens having the right to bear arms, it would be very difficult to form a militia. You people crack me up...you're ilk are certain that police are killing people unjustly and that President Trump is a dictator, but you don't want guns to protect yourselves? What is wrong with you? The NRA is fighting for you to be able to keep that right.
 
itsforthekids said:
I completely understand that without citizens having the right to bear arms, it would be very difficult to form a militia. You people crack me up...you're ilk are certain that police are killing people unjustly and that President Trump is a dictator, but you don't want guns to protect yourselves? What is wrong with you? The NRA is fighting for you to be able to keep that right.
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That right is in the 2nd.... it means all gun owners should be part of the militia... and the NRA cant save what cant be taken away...
 
Bodhisattva said:
That right is in the 2nd.... it means all gun owners should be part of the militia... and the NRA cant save what cant be taken away...
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You're wrong. It's already been decided by the scotus. Thank God that the founding fathers had the wisdom to put in the 2nd amendment. They read and wrote about great thinkers from before them. These men were great thinkers themselves. They took their instructions from the idea that man can only be governed by God, not by other men. Self defense is an inalienable right. Who are you to take that right away?
 
Bodhisattva said:
That right is in the 2nd.... it means all gun owners should be part of the militia... and the NRA cant save what cant be taken away...
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No, it doesn't, and it never has. Currently though, all males 18-45, regardless of their gun ownership status, are part of the militia. Ponder that. Several of the Founding Fathers were gun owners and too old to serve in the militia. Congressmen, ferrymen and stage coach drivers weren't in the militia, yet they were still allowed to own guns.
 
itsforthekids said:
You're wrong. It's already been decided by the scotus. Thank God that the founding fathers had the wisdom to put in the 2nd amendment. They read and wrote about great thinkers from before them. These men were great thinkers themselves. They took their instructions from the idea that man can only be governed by God, not by other men. Self defense is an inalienable right. Who are you to take that right away?
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SCOTUS decided racist segregation was Constitutional. :lol:

And your post on who governs is completely wrong. The Constitution is about men governing men.
 
Bodhisattva said:
SCOTUS decided racist segregation was Constitutional. :lol:

And your post on who governs is completely wrong. The Constitution is about men governing men.
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You better read it again...while government is necessary, the constitution was designed specifically to prevent men governing other men. The mechanisms built into our constitution are brilliant. Too bad there are so many who think that it's a fluid document...easily changed at someone's whim. Usually an activist judge.
 
Rucker61 said:
No, it doesn't, and it never has. Currently though, all males 18-45, regardless of their gun ownership status, are part of the militia. Ponder that. Several of the Founding Fathers were gun owners and too old to serve in the militia. Congressmen, ferrymen and stage coach drivers weren't in the militia, yet they were still allowed to own guns.
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It always has... it has been twisted... :shrug:

And they are not part of the militia... they are subject to an unconstitutional draft.
 
itsforthekids said:
You better read it again...while government is necessary, the constitution was designed specifically to prevent men governing other men. The mechanisms built into our constitution are brilliant. Too bad there are so many who think that it's a fluid document...easily changed at someone's whim. Usually an activist judge.
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Who writes the laws?

Who enforces the laws?

God?

Umm... no.
 
Bodhisattva said:
It always has... it has been twisted... :shrug:
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Please provide any actual support for this claim. People have been buying firearms legally since 1792 without having to be in the militia. No federal law has ever required that militia membership be a requirement to buy a gun.

And they are not part of the militia... they are subject to an unconstitutional draft.
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Men 18-45 are very much the militia. Current US law, based on the powers unenumerated to Congress in Article 1, Section 8:

§311 . Militia: composition and classes
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are-

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
 
Rucker61 said:
Please provide any actual support for this claim. People have been buying firearms legally since 1792 without having to be in the militia. No federal law has ever required that militia membership be a requirement to buy a gun.



Men 18-45 are very much the militia. Current US law, based on the powers unenumerated to Congress in Article 1, Section 8:

§311 . Militia: composition and classes
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are-

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
Click to expand...

Those clauses are not in the Constitution...
 
Bodhisattva said:
Those clauses are not in the Constitution...
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Correct, but the power to write those clauses into law are in the Constitution, and the power to enforce the laws passed by Congress are in the Constitution.
 
Rucker61 said:
Correct, but the power to write those clauses into law are in the Constitution, and the power to enforce the laws passed by Congress are in the Constitution.
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The point is that those clauses are not Constitutional just because they are written.
 
Bodhisattva said:
The point is that those clauses are not Constitutional just because they are written.
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They are federal law, and are based unequivocally on the powers enumerated to Congress. There is no basis to consider them unconstitutional.
 
Rucker61 said:
They are federal law, and are based unequivocally on the powers enumerated to Congress. There is no basis to consider them unconstitutional.
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Invluntary servitude.
 
For your education:

District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), is a landmark case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home, and that Washington, D.C.'s handgun ban and requirement that lawfully-owned rifles and shotguns be kept "unloaded and disassembled or bound by a trigger lock" violated this guarantee.
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Rucker61 said:
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
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Pray tell, what is the unorganized militia? Be specific plz.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Pray tell, what is the unorganized militia? Be specific plz.
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According to current law, US Code §311 .

Militia: composition and classes
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are-

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia

Which means every male 18-45 who isn't in the National Guard or Naval Militia.
 
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