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Would NYC Be Safer If Everyone Had a Gun?

Would NYC be be safer if everyone who could pass a background check had a gun

  • Yes

    Votes: 9 37.5%
  • No

    Votes: 15 62.5%

  • Total voters
    24

Cameron

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Does anybody really think NYC would be safer if everyone who could pass a background check had a gun?

I personally think that the presence of guns, much like nuclear weapons in national relations, just ups the stakes for conflicts and makes it more dangerous to say something or confront people who are being abusive. Even if you have a gun, are you going to confront the person who you see littering on the subway tracks or taking a pregnant lady's seat if they have a gun too?

Not to mention every police encounter would probably become a self-defense shooting.
 
Does anybody really think NYC would be safer if everyone who could pass a background check had a gun?

Hard to say if it would be safer. Personally, I don't see "safety" as a compelling issue. I am more concerned with the ability of individuals to be able to defend themselves in whatever manner they choose. So, according to the issue that I see as important, the individuals in NYC would be better off.
 
EVERYONE? Including the people who don't want guns, aren't comfortable around them or don't know how to operate them? NOOOOOOOOO
 
EVERYONE? Including the people who don't want guns, aren't comfortable around them or don't know how to operate them? NOOOOOOOOO
Let's say for the sake of the hypothetical that everyone knows how to operate a gun and is comfortable doing so. The point is really to examine the argument that having the ability to defend oneself with a gun correlates with greater safety and decreases crime.
 
Hard to say if it would be safer. Personally, I don't see "safety" as a compelling issue. I am more concerned with the ability of individuals to be able to defend themselves in whatever manner they choose. So, according to the issue that I see as important, the individuals in NYC would be better off.
I'm not sure I follow. Is the ability to defend oneself in whatever manner an individual chooses a benefit to individuals even if they face greater danger and have to defend themselves more often than they otherwise would?
 
Let's say for the sake of the hypothetical that everyone knows how to operate a gun and is comfortable doing so. The point is really to examine the argument that having the ability to defend oneself with a gun correlates with greater safety and decreases crime.

And you think a densely populated city would be ideal for this hypothetical? Are you familiar at all with the work of John Calhoun on population density?

First of all, if everyone knew how to operate a gun and were comfortable with them, it would no longer BE New York City. It would require a different type of populace entirely. The kind that would do better with a fully armed populace than the current NYC as it stands.

That said, ever see how polite people are at the gun range?
 
Let's say for the sake of the hypothetical that everyone knows how to operate a gun and is comfortable doing so. The point is really to examine the argument that having the ability to defend oneself with a gun correlates with greater safety and decreases crime.

As far as defending oneself, keep'em guessing. CCW is the way to go. As far as NY, can someone explain this to me, please?
“May Issue” policy at the local county level. This means that the issuance of a license is entirely up to the issuing officer.
https://www.gunstocarry.com/gun-laws-state/new-york-gun-laws/
 
I'm not sure I follow. Is the ability to defend oneself in whatever manner an individual chooses a benefit to individuals even if they face greater danger and have to defend themselves more often than they otherwise would?

Even if one were to assume that your premise is true ("...they face greater danger and have to defend themselves more often than they otherwise would"), the answer is still "yes".
 
And you think a densely populated city would be ideal for this hypothetical?
Yes, to the extent that the pro-gun argument is that people are safer with less burdens on the right to bear arms, I think examining that theory in the context of a densely populated city is important.

You may believe that the reasonability of gun restrictions changes depending on the environment and area (I would tend to agree), but many people do not.

First of all, if everyone knew how to operate a gun and were comfortable with them, it would no longer BE New York City. It would require a different type of populace entirely. The kind that would do better with a fully armed populace than the current NYC as it stands.
This is probably a good point. So there are at least two other possibilities: (1) everyone who can pass a gun safety test must own and carry a gun - is the city as a whole safer or less safe? (2) no one is forced to get a gun, but there are no restrictions on gun ownership except that an applicant must pass a background check - same question.

That said, ever see how polite people are at the gun range?
I'm sure they are. But the real world isn't as sterilized as a gun range.
 
Even if one were to assume that your premise is true ("...they face greater danger and have to defend themselves more often than they otherwise would"), the answer is still "yes".
Not saying it's true, it's a hypothesis, was just curious where your balancing of interests lies. I can't say I agree with your answer. Would you care to elaborate on why you think the answer is yes?
 
Not saying it's true, it's a hypothesis, was just curious where your balancing of interests lies. I can't say I agree with your answer. Would you care to elaborate on why you think the answer is yes?

My ability to defend myself is extremely important to me. If you are asking why I think this, I guess I don't have a reason. To me, it seems intuitively obvious.

Since I have recognized in myself that this ability to defend is important, I have generalized this importance to other individuals. Seems pretty easy for me to recognize that individuals should have the ability to defend themselves. I am very uncomfortable with restrictions in that ability.
 
Does anybody really think NYC would be safer if everyone who could pass a background check had a gun?

I personally think that the presence of guns, much like nuclear weapons in national relations, just ups the stakes for conflicts and makes it more dangerous to say something or confront people who are being abusive. Even if you have a gun, are you going to confront the person who you see littering on the subway tracks or taking a pregnant lady's seat if they have a gun too?

Not to mention every police encounter would probably become a self-defense shooting.

NYC would be a safer place if everyone there weren't huge assholes.
 
Does anybody really think NYC would be safer if everyone who could pass a background check had a gun?

I personally think that the presence of guns, much like nuclear weapons in national relations, just ups the stakes for conflicts and makes it more dangerous to say something or confront people who are being abusive. Even if you have a gun, are you going to confront the person who you see littering on the subway tracks or taking a pregnant lady's seat if they have a gun too?

Not to mention every police encounter would probably become a self-defense shooting.
To directly answer your opening question, yes, there are people who "really think NYC would be safer if everyone who could pass a background check had a gun."

Background checks are a good idea, and for some quantity of individuals within the population, they are apt indicators of the probability (aka risk) that the subject of the check will responsibly use and maintain their firearm(s). For other individuals, they are not. Thus the probability they indicate is something less than 100%. Because it's not possible to obtain a 100% confidence level with regard to the risk that any given person will "misbehave" with their gun, we know that background checks are an imperfect tool for gauging who is and who is not fit to own a firearm: some people who pass a background check will yet "misbehave." Inasmuch as the checks are an imperfect assessment modality, they must be combined with other tactics in order to maximize the incidence of apt gun use and maintenance among the population of gun owners. More guns in the population isn't going to produce that outcome.

I personally think that the presence of guns, much like nuclear weapons in national relations, just ups the stakes for conflicts and makes it more dangerous to say something or confront people who are being abusive. Even if you have a gun, are you going to confront the person who you see littering on the subway tracks or taking a pregnant lady's seat if they have a gun too?

Not to mention every police encounter would probably become a self-defense shooting.


  1. Only gun rights advocates embrace the notion that a greater abundance of a vector (guns) of a malady (gun deaths/injuries) will somehow reduce the incidence of the malady in question.
  2. Guns and ammo are but a hand held variant of a host of non-human powered ranged weapon systems. Gun rights advocates cleave to the notion that it's right to actively intervene -- forcibly, legislatively or by agreement -- to deny others access to big ranged explosive weapons systems, but they reject the notion of doing so with regard to handheld ones, names guns. Consider nuclear weapons:
    • Gun corresponds to nuclear launch pad
    • Shell corresponds to missile
    • Gunpowder corresponds to propulsion material
    • Bullet corresponds to nuclear warhead
 
Does anybody really think NYC would be safer if everyone who could pass a background check had a gun?

I personally think that the presence of guns, much like nuclear weapons in national relations, just ups the stakes for conflicts and makes it more dangerous to say something or confront people who are being abusive. Even if you have a gun, are you going to confront the person who you see littering on the subway tracks or taking a pregnant lady's seat if they have a gun too?

Not to mention every police encounter would probably become a self-defense shooting.

Ridiculous hypothesis. Nothing more than sentimental click bait designed to appeal to the anti gun choir.

Besides, the most dangerous people in NYC are not armed with guns.
 
Does anybody really think NYC would be safer if everyone who could pass a background check had a gun?

I personally think that the presence of guns, much like nuclear weapons in national relations, just ups the stakes for conflicts and makes it more dangerous to say something or confront people who are being abusive. Even if you have a gun, are you going to confront the person who you see littering on the subway tracks or taking a pregnant lady's seat if they have a gun too?

Not to mention every police encounter would probably become a self-defense shooting.

No, NYC would not be safer, after all NYC is full of New Yorkers, hence it is best they stay away from firearms and probably knives and sharp scissors.
 
Hard to say if it would be safer. Personally, I don't see "safety" as a compelling issue. I am more concerned with the ability of individuals to be able to defend themselves in whatever manner they choose. So, according to the issue that I see as important, the individuals in NYC would be better off.

You talk as if humans are rational creatures.
 
NYC would be a safer place if everyone there weren't huge assholes.

Which tends to sum up why asshole control, not gun control, is the issue that needs to be addressed.
 
You talk as if humans are rational creatures.

Yeah, guilty as charged. I tend to project on others some of the characteristics that I see in myself. I have recognized this as an unfortunate blind spot, but I have so far had poor results trying to remedy it. :(
 
Hard to say if it would be safer. Personally, I don't see "safety" as a compelling issue. I am more concerned with the ability of individuals to be able to defend themselves in whatever manner they choose. So, according to the issue that I see as important, the individuals in NYC would be better off.

Nobody has a problem with one's lawful defensive use of a firearm. People have a problem with one's unlawful offensive use of a firearm. As go devices and systems that can be used defensively, retaliatorilly and/or deterrently, personal firearms are retaliatory/offensive and may, under certain conditions, accord one a deterrent capability, but rarely, if ever, are they defensive devices.

I think also that too many people conflate retaliation/offense and defense with deterrence. They're related, but they aren't the same things.
  • Deterrence is a function of the nature of information an aggressor has about an opponent's capacity to retaliate -- A firearm can establish for one a deterrent capability. Deterrence is largely a mental thing; it relies exclusively on one's opponent's tolerance for and understanding of risk, namely the risk that their efforts will adversely affect them, regardless of how their actions affect their opponent.
  • Defense is the capacity to withstand an actual attack that hits it target -- A firearm is very unlikely to provide any defense capability. In hand-to-hand combat, a rifle, say, might be used to parry a blow, but in the main, a ranged weapon of no stripe is conceived as a defense device/system.
  • Retaliation is an action one can take in response to a another's action against him/her -- This is a form of offensive use -- it differs from offensive use only insofar as what motivates the system's/device's use -- and firearms are quite effective for this use. Retaliation is all about repelling an aggressor, not defending oneself from their aggression(s). Generally retaliation is exacted upon a person or group thereof, but in certain instances, retaliation can be exacted upon a device, as when an aggressor fires a missile and one uses one's own missile to retaliate against the missile the aggressor fired. What be the target of a specific retaliatory action doesn't alter the fact that one has retaliated.
It's certainly useful to have deterrent and retaliatory capabilities; however, insofar as few folks have an affinity for "up close and personal" bellicosity, it stands to reason that minimizing the availability of ranged forms/means of offense will reduce the incidence of aggressive actions against one's fellows. I mean, really. How many folks are keen to batter another? Not many in my estimation. I wouldn't just approach someone and hit them, for whatever reason, be it with nefarious intent or just on general principle. Cats and other beasts will at times "swat" at something simply because it comes in range, but people rarely do. Yet the risk that that might happen forms a material share of the basis for the "guns for so-called defensive purposes" argument.


Aside:
It's probably worth nothing that just as beasts are able to suss their odds of success (risk of incurring self-harm/failure) against an opponent, so to can humans. If one wants to deter would-be assailants, get fit. People can tell by one's gait, posture and other visible cues whether one is a relatively easy mark. What's "easy" is relative -- I don't mean "pushover" easy -- but in the context of what I'm getting at, I think the following images illustrate it....

Looks like an easy mark:
23138-3nicholassoamesmp.jpg


middle-aged-man-jogging-park-260nw-524573638.jpg

Does not look like an easy mark:

handsome-old-men-11-582da63fdc73c__880.jpg


2d7a78a95f2122c5e016f275f6081af3.jpg


I think that were we to restructure our society so that matters of personal aggression operated using the constructs and tools with which "Mother Nature" imbued us all -- a being's natural physicality that communicates "find a different mark" and the brains that allow one to accurately receive that message -- there'd be a lot less interpersonal violence, injury and death. I know that's a hard thing to achieve, but it's not impossible to achieve it.​
 
As far as defending oneself, keep'em guessing. CCW is the way to go. As far as NY, can someone explain this to me, please?

https://www.gunstocarry.com/gun-laws-state/new-york-gun-laws/

It means that the police can determine whether or not to issue a license to carry a gun even if you pass all other basic requirements. IE: You can pass a background check with flying colors, pass a mental health check with flying colors, be of age to legally own a gun that you are getting the license for and still be denied if you do not convince the cops that you have a valid need for the type of license that you are applying for, such as self defense. And of course "valid need" is purely subjective.
 
Let's say for the sake of the hypothetical that everyone knows how to operate a gun and is comfortable doing so. The point is really to examine the argument that having the ability to defend oneself with a gun correlates with greater safety and decreases crime.

The people that think that nonsense are completely dumb. More guns equals more likelihood of people getting shot, accidentally or not. Just having a gun in your home increases your risk of being involved in a gun related incident. put millions of more guns, every little argument, anytime people get hot tempered, now they have a deadly weapon to overreact. Humans get angry, get emotional, don't think in certain moments. Give them a gun, horrible results.

Or how about people over reacting to everything and pulling guns on innocent people..

the notion that if everybody was armed it would be safer is absolutely ridiculous and not rooted in reality
 
It means that the police can determine whether or not to issue a license to carry a gun even if you pass all other basic requirements. IE: You can pass a background check with flying colors, pass a mental health check with flying colors, be of age to legally own a gun that you are getting the license for and still be denied if you do not convince the cops that you have a valid need for the type of license that you are applying for, such as self defense. And of course "valid need" is purely subjective.

Outright lies.
 
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