• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

A legislation proposal on accountability

Xelor said:
Quite frankly, I'm not so selfish that were you seriously willing to accept my submitting to your demand in return for your acquiescing to the proposal I offered, I would submit to incarceration. I would because I know that gun owners being held accountable is more important than is whether I, one person, has to make a sacrifice to obtain that. The proposal isn't about me, and I know that.
Click to expand...

Proposal rejected.
 
Xelor said:
Quite frankly, I'm not so selfish that were you seriously willing to accept my submitting to your demand in return for your acquiescing to the proposal I offered, I would submit to incarceration. I would because I know that gun owners being held accountable is more important than is whether I, one person, has to make a sacrifice to obtain that. The proposal isn't about me, and I know that.
Click to expand...

great...lets meet in kansas

i will give up my 3 guns and you submit yourself to lockup...

hell, i can get 25-30 of my buddies to do the same if we can get people like you locked up for 40 years apiece

i will forever give up my guns....you give up your freedom

we need to build a LOT more prisons....
 
Xelor said:
Well, what the "F" are they, then?
Click to expand...

Generically, many states have laws that increase the punishment for a criminal act if a firearm was used or even possessed during that act.
 
Rucker61 said:
Generically, many states have laws that increase the punishment for a criminal act if a firearm was used or even possessed during that act.
Click to expand...

TY. Now I know what you're talking about by "enhancements."

So, considering my proposed legislation and your initial response to it...
Fledermaus said:
There are already "enhancements" aplenty in many jurisdictions.
Click to expand...
...would you identify which of them directly establish a framework whereby strict liability accountability is established for gun owners who inaptly maintain control over their firearms and who, on the occasion of losing control of their firearms, are held to a timely reporting requirement with regard to their loss of control over their firearm(s)? AFAIK, there are no such provisions that have been implemented by any jurisdictions, and that is what my proposal does.
​
 
Xelor said:
Proposed:

  • The person identified as the current registered lawful owner of a firearm shall be held strictly liable for crimes committed using their firearm. Their liability will be criminal.
  • The state's burden of proof will be that concomitant with strict liability, that is, to show (1) who the current owner is and (2) that the current owner's firearm was indeed used to commit certain classes of crime -- rape, murder, attempted murder, battery, robbery, assault, breaking and entering, and vandalism, along with conspiracy to commit any of those.

  • The incarceration penalties to which currently registered owners will be held culpable will be one half of the maximum sentence allowed were they the actual perpetrator of the crime committed, provided the currently registered owner is not the current owner of the firearm.
    • The incarceration penalty cannot be reduced or otherwise truncated, suspended, etc.
    • Minors' exception: In instances where minors obtain a firearm and with it inflict harm on themselves or others, the incarceration sentence will be the full maximum allowed by law were the owner also the perpetrator of the crime.
    • Corporations: If the owner is a corporation, the parent and subsidiary organization(s) CEO(s), COO(s), and president (or substantively comparable executive principals) in both the parent and applicable subsidiary(s) will be held jointly and individually criminally culpable.
  • The fines current owners will have levided be:
    • Private citizens: No fines will be levied.
    • Businesses and other organizations: If the firearm in question was, at the time of the crime's commission, registered to a business or other organizations, the fine will be $1M per injury and $10M per death that the business' firearm was used to make happen.
    • Fines are due immediately upon conviction. Upon becoming 30 days past due, unpaid fines accrue compound penalty interest at the rate of 1% per month.
    • The fines stipulated above cannot be reduced.
  • Loss/Theft Exclusion: Individuals who and organizations that report their firearms as lost or stolen will not be held culpable, provided they (1) file the report, or can show documentation of having notified law enforcement officers of the weapon's loss/theft, prior to the crime's commission. and (2) allow. without a search warrant, law enforcement officers to examine the property to which they hold title/lease and from which their gun was stolen or lost.
    • In order to qualify for this exclusion, if a gun owner lacks title to the property from which they allege the gun was lost/stolen, the owner must obtain that property owner's authorization for a warrantless search. Barring that, the owner can report the item lost from any property to which s/he holds title or lease.
    • Individuals and organizations who, in any given three year period, report as lost more than one firearm shall have their right to fabricate, transport, own, possess and/or purchase firearms suspended for three years.
    • Assault Exclusion: Individuals who are incapacitated by another individual who, in turn, absconds with the victim's firearm(s) and uses it to commit a noted crime will not be held accountable per the above, provided the assaulted individual files an affidavit attesting to who incapacitated them and that there was no other person who could reasonably reported the theft on their behalf.
  • Estate Transfers of Title: Upon a registered gun owner's death, title to their firearms passes immediately in accordance with either the decedent's will (filed with the court) or the provisions of state law, whichever prevails at the time of death.
  • Registry Usage: Access to and use/distribution of registrant information is permitted only in instances of a firearm's having been used unlawfully. In such instances, information pertaining only to the firearm used may be accessed and/or distributed.

If you don't like the above proposed legislation, what would you want in exchange for acquiescing to the proposal's terms?
Click to expand...

Nothing, because there's no compromise posdible based on those terms.
 
Xelor said:
TY. Now I know what you're talking about by "enhancements."

So, considering my proposed legislation and your initial response to it...
​
...would you identify which of them directly establish a framework whereby strict liability accountability is established for gun owners who inaptly maintain control over their firearms and who, on the occasion of losing control of their firearms, are held to a timely reporting requirement with regard to their loss of control over their firearm(s)? AFAIK, there are no such provisions that have been implemented by any jurisdictions, and that is what my proposal does.
​
Click to expand...

You want me to do your research for you?

Proposal rejected.
 
apdst said:
Nothing, because there's no compromise posdible based on those terms.
Click to expand...

What if the compromise was the abolishment of all federal social welfare programs (minus disability) and all regulations and laws moved from the federal to state level?
 
Nap said:
What if the compromise was the abolishment of all federal social welfare programs (minus disability) and all regulations and laws moved from the federal to state level?
Click to expand...

Surrender ny civil rights for that? Neh...pass.
 
Xelor said:
Proposed:

  • The person identified as the current registered lawful owner of a firearm shall be held strictly liable for crimes committed using their firearm. Their liability will be criminal.
  • The state's burden of proof will be that concomitant with strict liability, that is, to show (1) who the current owner is and (2) that the current owner's firearm was indeed used to commit certain classes of crime -- rape, murder, attempted murder, battery, robbery, assault, breaking and entering, and vandalism, along with conspiracy to commit any of those.

  • The incarceration penalties to which currently registered owners will be held culpable will be one half of the maximum sentence allowed were they the actual perpetrator of the crime committed, provided the currently registered owner is not the current owner of the firearm.
    • The incarceration penalty cannot be reduced or otherwise truncated, suspended, etc.
    • Minors' exception: In instances where minors obtain a firearm and with it inflict harm on themselves or others, the incarceration sentence will be the full maximum allowed by law were the owner also the perpetrator of the crime.
    • Corporations: If the owner is a corporation, the parent and subsidiary organization(s) CEO(s), COO(s), and president (or substantively comparable executive principals) in both the parent and applicable subsidiary(s) will be held jointly and individually criminally culpable.
  • The fines current owners will have levided be:
    • Private citizens: No fines will be levied.
    • Businesses and other organizations: If the firearm in question was, at the time of the crime's commission, registered to a business or other organizations, the fine will be $1M per injury and $10M per death that the business' firearm was used to make happen.
    • Fines are due immediately upon conviction. Upon becoming 30 days past due, unpaid fines accrue compound penalty interest at the rate of 1% per month.
    • The fines stipulated above cannot be reduced.
  • Loss/Theft Exclusion: Individuals who and organizations that report their firearms as lost or stolen will not be held culpable, provided they (1) file the report, or can show documentation of having notified law enforcement officers of the weapon's loss/theft, prior to the crime's commission. and (2) allow. without a search warrant, law enforcement officers to examine the property to which they hold title/lease and from which their gun was stolen or lost.
    • In order to qualify for this exclusion, if a gun owner lacks title to the property from which they allege the gun was lost/stolen, the owner must obtain that property owner's authorization for a warrantless search. Barring that, the owner can report the item lost from any property to which s/he holds title or lease.
    • Individuals and organizations who, in any given three year period, report as lost more than one firearm shall have their right to fabricate, transport, own, possess and/or purchase firearms suspended for three years.
    • Assault Exclusion: Individuals who are incapacitated by another individual who, in turn, absconds with the victim's firearm(s) and uses it to commit a noted crime will not be held accountable per the above, provided the assaulted individual files an affidavit attesting to who incapacitated them and that there was no other person who could reasonably reported the theft on their behalf.
  • Estate Transfers of Title: Upon a registered gun owner's death, title to their firearms passes immediately in accordance with either the decedent's will (filed with the court) or the provisions of state law, whichever prevails at the time of death.
  • Registry Usage: Access to and use/distribution of registrant information is permitted only in instances of a firearm's having been used unlawfully. In such instances, information pertaining only to the firearm used may be accessed and/or distributed.

If you don't like the above proposed legislation, what would you want in exchange for acquiescing to the proposal's terms?
Click to expand...


A mandatory cary law. All citizens of legal age must have a firearm when not inside their legal residence punishable by mandatory jail time and fines

Anyone telling a lie faces mandatory jail and fines

Elections no longer secret ballet. You must publicly declare candidate and are held liable for their actions

Everyone must join the religion of my choosing and all others are outlawed

And I get to be dictator for life
 
Xelor said:
Perhaps that is so....we shall see.

Frankly, however, I'm not asking anyone to support, in an active sense, the proposed terms. I'm asking what they'd accept in exchange for acquiescing to them.
Click to expand...

What you are asking is for people to give up something they have a right to in order to get something else that they already have a right to.This amounts to me taking your car and saying if you want me to occasionally let you use it then you got to give me gas money and pay for my insurance to drive your car that you already have a right to.

This doesn't illustrate every anti-2nd amendment law enacted over the decades but it illustrates why 2nd amendment advocates are not really willing to compromise.
gun control compromise part 1.jpg
gun control compromise part 2.jpg
 
Fledermaus said:
You want me to do your research for you?

Proposal rejected.
Click to expand...

I want you to share the results of your own research. You are the one who asserted:
Fledermaus said:
There are already "enhancements" aplenty in many jurisdictions.
Click to expand...
It's my assertion that jurisdictions that AFAIK, there are no jurisdictions that have implemented provisions, "enhancements" as you put it, that:
Xelor said:
directly establish a framework whereby strict liability accountability is established for gun owners who inaptly maintain control over their firearms and who, on the occasion of losing control of their firearms, are held to a timely reporting requirement with regard to their loss of control over their firearm(s)?
Click to expand...
The enhancements, as Rucker described them, "that increase the punishment for a criminal act if a firearm was used or even possessed during that act" have no bearing on accountability of the nature my proposal addresses. Those "enhancements" increase the penalties to which an unlawful user of a firearm is subject. My proposal establishes penalties for losing control over one's own firearm whereby it gets used unlawfully by someone else.
Xelor said:
The person identified as the current registered lawful owner of a firearm shall be held strictly liable for crimes committed using their firearm. Their liability will be criminal.
Click to expand...
If the current registered owner of the firearm is also the perpetrator of the crime, there's no point to invoking the proposed provisions; the perp will already be culpable for unlawfully using a firearm. Moreover, insofar as the penalties under my provision aren't reducible, a currently registered owner who is also the perp has an incentive to admit to having unlawfully used their firearm because there's a chance to plead for a reduced sentence as the perp, whereas there is no such opportunity as the currently registered owner of a firearm that is used unlawfully by another person.
 
Xelor said:
I want you to share the results of your own research. You are the one who asserted:
​
It's my assertion that jurisdictions that AFAIK, there are no jurisdictions that have implemented provisions, "enhancements" as you put it, that:
​
The enhancements, as Rucker described them, "that increase the punishment for a criminal act if a firearm was used or even possessed during that act" have no bearing on accountability of the nature my proposal addresses. Those "enhancements" increase the penalties to which an unlawful user of a firearm is subject. My proposal establishes penalties for losing control over one's own firearm whereby it gets used unlawfully by someone else.
​
If the current registered owner of the firearm is also the perpetrator of the crime, there's no point to invoking the proposed provisions; the perp will already be culpable for unlawfully using a firearm. Moreover, insofar as the penalties under my provision aren't reducible, a currently registered owner who is also the perp has an incentive to admit to having unlawfully used their firearm because there's a chance to plead for a reduced sentence as the perp, whereas there is no such opportunity as the currently registered owner of a firearm that is used unlawfully by another person.
Click to expand...

Proposal rejected.
 
jamesrage said:
What you are asking is for people to give up something they have a right to in order to get something else that they already have a right to.This amounts to me taking your car and saying if you want me to occasionally let you use it then you got to give me gas money and pay for my insurance to drive your car that you already have a right to.

This doesn't illustrate every anti-2nd amendment law enacted over the decades but it illustrates why 2nd amendment advocates are not really willing to compromise.
Click to expand...
Please identify what you think my proposal asks people to give up that they have an extant right to.
 
Xelor said:
Please identify what you think my proposal asks people to give up that they have an extant right to.
Click to expand...
Your proposals want people to be charged for the actions of others, register their firearms and to be subject to warrantless searches just be able to exercise their 2nd amendment rights. The only purpose of registrations of property is to aid the government in confiscation of that property and or charge excessive or repetitive taxes on it.
 
Last edited:
Fledermaus said:
There are already "enhancements" aplenty in many jurisdictions.
Click to expand...
its more anti gun nonsense. strict liability is an affront to freedom in this case. we have plenty of laws to incarcerate real criminals.
 
Rucker61 said:
Just for sake of conversation:

1. Bans on classes of firearms of any degree will be unconstitutional at all levels of government, and any legislator who proposes such will be immediately removed from office and charged with treason.
2. Nationwide Constitutional carry.
3. NFA 1934, GCA 1968, Hughes Amendment, Brady Bill and Lautenberg Amendment overturned.
4. For any police activity related to enforcing your proposals found to be in error or committed with deliberate malfeasance, the officers involved and their complete chain of command shall be held responsible for felony Constitutional rights violations, to be immediately dismissed from this police force and tried for their crimes.
5. Likewise for any prosecuting attorneys.
6. No more gun free zones on public property.

There's a start.
Click to expand...

here is another-if any citizen is murdered, raped or robbed and it is proven the citizen could not own firearms due to stupid anti gun laws, then the persons who passed said laws shall be tried as accomplices to the violent crime perpetrated upon the disarmed citizen. Judges who uphold gun bans etc would be tried for treason
 
Xelor said:
Proposed:

  • The person identified as the current registered lawful owner of a firearm shall be held strictly liable for crimes committed using their firearm. Their liability will be criminal.
  • The state's burden of proof will be that concomitant with strict liability, that is, to show (1) who the current owner is and (2) that the current owner's firearm was indeed used to commit certain classes of crime -- rape, murder, attempted murder, battery, robbery, assault, breaking and entering, and vandalism, along with conspiracy to commit any of those.

  • The incarceration penalties to which currently registered owners will be held culpable will be one half of the maximum sentence allowed were they the actual perpetrator of the crime committed, provided the currently registered owner is not the current owner of the firearm.
    • The incarceration penalty cannot be reduced or otherwise truncated, suspended, etc.
    • Minors' exception: In instances where minors obtain a firearm and with it inflict harm on themselves or others, the incarceration sentence will be the full maximum allowed by law were the owner also the perpetrator of the crime.
    • Corporations: If the owner is a corporation, the parent and subsidiary organization(s) CEO(s), COO(s), and president (or substantively comparable executive principals) in both the parent and applicable subsidiary(s) will be held jointly and individually criminally culpable.
  • The fines current owners will have levided be:
    • Private citizens: No fines will be levied.
    • Businesses and other organizations: If the firearm in question was, at the time of the crime's commission, registered to a business or other organizations, the fine will be $1M per injury and $10M per death that the business' firearm was used to make happen.
    • Fines are due immediately upon conviction. Upon becoming 30 days past due, unpaid fines accrue compound penalty interest at the rate of 1% per month.
    • The fines stipulated above cannot be reduced.
  • Loss/Theft Exclusion: Individuals who and organizations that report their firearms as lost or stolen will not be held culpable, provided they (1) file the report, or can show documentation of having notified law enforcement officers of the weapon's loss/theft, prior to the crime's commission. and (2) allow. without a search warrant, law enforcement officers to examine the property to which they hold title/lease and from which their gun was stolen or lost.
    • In order to qualify for this exclusion, if a gun owner lacks title to the property from which they allege the gun was lost/stolen, the owner must obtain that property owner's authorization for a warrantless search. Barring that, the owner can report the item lost from any property to which s/he holds title or lease.
    • Individuals and organizations who, in any given three year period, report as lost more than one firearm shall have their right to fabricate, transport, own, possess and/or purchase firearms suspended for three years.
    • Assault Exclusion: Individuals who are incapacitated by another individual who, in turn, absconds with the victim's firearm(s) and uses it to commit a noted crime will not be held accountable per the above, provided the assaulted individual files an affidavit attesting to who incapacitated them and that there was no other person who could reasonably reported the theft on their behalf.
  • Estate Transfers of Title: Upon a registered gun owner's death, title to their firearms passes immediately in accordance with either the decedent's will (filed with the court) or the provisions of state law, whichever prevails at the time of death.
  • Registry Usage: Access to and use/distribution of registrant information is permitted only in instances of a firearm's having been used unlawfully. In such instances, information pertaining only to the firearm used may be accessed and/or distributed.

If you don't like the above proposed legislation, what would you want in exchange for acquiescing to the proposal's terms?
Click to expand...

What were your realistic expectations coming into this?

What did you expect people to ask for "in exchange" for this? Again, realistically?
 
Xelor said:
Proposed:

  • The person identified as the current registered lawful owner of a firearm
Click to expand...


  • Stop right there.

    What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?

    Requiring registration is an infringement.

    The rest of your post? I just rendered it irrelevant.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom