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Gun Control Creates Victims

Wan said:
What Randy Weaver did or didn't do, whether he was guilty or not, whether he got "stupid" or not, none of these things matter. The only thing that matters is the fact the feds killed someone who was an innocent bystander and posed no threat. Why can't you see this?
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because some people are so enamored of big government and so hateful of anyone who doesn't worship big brother that they have no ability to see reality
 
Wan said:
So, if a woman's husband did something that could be argued as wrong, it is now perfectly fine to shoot her? Is this what you are telling me?

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, the feds could have focused their fire on someone who was shooting at them, NOT someone who was just standing around with no weapon and holding a baby?


You are not a judge. You don't get to say whether Randy Weaver was in the wrong or not.

Lastly, how did you feel about the part where the feds said to Randy Weaver with a microphone: "We had pancakes for breakfast. What did you have for breakfast Mrs. Weaver?" Let me guess, it is absolutely fine to do acts of extreme cruelty to someone, as long as he did something wrong, right?
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I know for a fact why Horiuchi shot Mrs Weaver. He was shooting at one of the men running back to the house and hit VW instead. He claimed he was authorized to shoot because Randy Weaver/and or Kevin Harris was pointing a gun at a helicopter. He fired and wounded one and then tried to hit one of them running into the home (they had been outside the home tending to the body of the boy shot in the back. according to testimony at the trial, the helicopter Horiuchi lied about was OVER FIVE MILES away at the time he claimed it was being aimed at. Horiuchi and Potts should be doing 15-20 in a federal penitentiary
 
TurtleDude said:
I know for a fact why Horiuchi shot Mrs Weaver. He was shooting at one of the men running back to the house and hit VW instead. He claimed he was authorized to shoot because Randy Weaver/and or Kevin Harris was pointing a gun at a helicopter. He fired and wounded one and then tried to hit one of them running into the home (they had been outside the home tending to the body of the boy shot in the back. according to testimony at the trial, the helicopter Horiuchi lied about was OVER FIVE MILES away at the time he claimed it was being aimed at. Horiuchi and Potts should be doing 15-20 in a federal penitentiary
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I see. Thanks for educating me on this Turtle.

Now, about this part: "feds said to Randy Weaver with a microphone: "We had pancakes for breakfast. What did you have for breakfast Mrs. Weaver?"

Did this truly happen?
 
Wan said:
What Randy Weaver did or didn't do, whether he was guilty or not, whether he got "stupid" or not, none of these things matter. The only thing that matters is the fact the feds killed someone who was an innocent bystander and posed no threat. Why can't you see this?
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Oh really? The fact that without the stupidity and arrogance of Weaver, no one would have died is "irrelevant" to you? Hate to break it to you but that's not the way the real world works.

One sees it again and again, gun obsessives killing others or getting themselves killed, and then always comes the screams about how the federal government is a "threat to liberty" or some idiotic crap.I hate to break it to you, but you lot are not special, you are not above the law, and your self pitying justifications for everything up to and including terrorism is sickening.

McVeigh killed a hundred and sixty eight innocent bystanders and wounded more than six hundred others.
 
TurtleDude said:
because some people are so enamored of big government and so hateful of anyone who doesn't worship big brother that they have no ability to see reality
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And some people, like you, are so obsessed with your precious holy relics that you make moronic claims like "World War Two would have been ended two years early if more Jews had had guns".
 
Tigerace117 said:
Oh really? The fact that without the stupidity and arrogance of Weaver, no one would have died is "irrelevant" to you? Hate to break it to you but that's not the way the real world works.
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So, if someone is being "stupid" and "arrogant", that means other people around him need to die?
 
Wan said:
I see. Thanks for educating me on this Turtle.

Now, about this part: "feds said to Randy Weaver with a microphone: "We had pancakes for breakfast. What did you have for breakfast Mrs. Weaver?"

Did this truly happen?
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I knew one of the FBI agents (also an attorney) who was part of the review team over this debacle. He didn't mention this though he said the FBI tried many things to get Weaver to surrender. IIRC a decorated and extremely controversial former Green Beret-BO Gritz-talked Weaver into surrendering and he was defended by one of the top trial attorneys in the country-Gary Spence
 
Tigerace117 said:
Considering the hysteria people were constantly shrieking about Obama(case in point, Texans wetting their beds over Jade Helm)......no, that really doesn't seem to be the case.
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True during the Obama administration there was a huge explosion in gun purchases which if you ask me is a good thing but as for people who are into guns wanting to make their own rules and shoot people who disagree with him, that's a fantasy, your fantasy. I would know, I've been around thousands of people who are into guns and who like to shoot at ranges.
 
Wan said:
So, if someone is being "stupid" and "arrogant", that means other people around him need to die?
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If someone is idiotic enough to get in a firefight with his family in the middle of it, there is no reason to feel sorry for the asshole.
 
Tigerace117 said:
And some people, like you, are so obsessed with your precious holy relics that you make moronic claims like "World War Two would have been ended two years early if more Jews had had guns".
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You're from Chicago, at least that's what you have listed as your location. From what I know they're very restrictive with guns in Chicago, you should be happy there.
 
Tigerace117 said:
And some people, like you, are so obsessed with your precious holy relics that you make moronic claims like "World War Two would have been ended two years early if more Jews had had guns".
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your hysterical comments such as calling guns relics and having cybergasms over someone being killed by the government is just the sign of silliness. and yes, if most of the Jews had been well armed, they would have caused their killers major problems. Of course, someone as in love with a fascist government as you are cannot even imagine anyone opposing a dictatorship
 
DebateChallenge said:
You're from Chicago, at least that's what you have listed as your location. From what I know they're very restrictive with guns in Chicago, you should be happy there.
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Are you suggesting a Stockholm syndrome scenario? :mrgreen:
 
DebateChallenge said:
True during the Obama administration there was a huge explosion in gun purchases which if you ask me is a good thing but as for people who are into guns wanting to make their own rules and shoot people who disagree with him, that's a fantasy, your fantasy. I would know, I've been around thousands of people who are into guns and who like to shoot at ranges.
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Yep, there were a lot of morons out there who still think there's actually a secret plot to take people's guns. In reality......not so much.

Buddy, just reading the justifications for Weaver shows you that gun obsessives think there should be two legal systems, one for them and one for the little people. The fact remains that no one would have died if Weaver hadn't decided he was above the law.
 
Tigerace117 said:
If someone is idiotic enough to get in a firefight with his family in the middle of it, there is no reason to feel sorry for the asshole.
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Weaver never engaged in any firefight with the feds. First they shot his son's dog. Then they shot his son in the back. this caused Kevin Harris to PROPERLY and legally kill the scumbag who shot a boy in the back. Weaver never shot at anyone.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Yep, there were a lot of morons out there who still think there's actually a secret plot to take people's guns. In reality......not so much.

Buddy, just reading the justifications for Weaver shows you that gun obsessives think there should be two legal systems, one for them and one for the little people. The fact remains that no one would have died if Weaver hadn't decided he was above the law.
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you are lying. Weaver was targeted for entrapment because he wouldn't help the feds spy on some racists.
 
TurtleDude said:
your hysterical comments such as calling guns relics and having cybergasms over someone being killed by the government is just the sign of silliness. and yes, if most of the Jews had been well armed, they would have caused their killers major problems. Of course, someone as in love with a fascist government as you are cannot even imagine anyone opposing a dictatorship
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Lol what a joke. The Jews launched armed uprisings numerous times. It didn't save them, or even slow down the Wehrmacht. Your total inability to understand history is very telling though.

And yes, guns are your holy relics. You practically worship them and think anyone who doesn't agree with you in every respect is a "fascist"---yet another sign, of course, that gun obsessives, for all their talk of tyranny, don't have a single damn clue.

Gee, what other laws do you think shouldn't apply if you are obsessed with guns?
 
TurtleDude said:
you are lying. Weaver was targeted for entrapment because he wouldn't help the feds spy on some racists.
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And guess what? If he had actually been "entrapped"---a rather big "if" given the kind of biased crap you think passes as sources---it would have come out, there would have been a ****storm, and oh yeah---none of his family would be dead because he wouldn't have decided to get in a shootout with them in the middle of it.
 
TurtleDude said:
you are lying. Weaver was targeted for entrapment because he wouldn't help the feds spy on some racists.
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Tigerace117 thinks that the feds can do no wrong. When there is any sort of skirmish between feds and the little people, he thinks it's always the latter's fault.
 
Tigerace117 said:
it would have come out, there would have been a ****storm,
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I doubt it. Nowadays nobody cares when a white person dies. Like you, for example.

Are you a minority?
 
TurtleDude said:
Weaver never engaged in any firefight with the feds. First they shot his son's dog. Then they shot his son in the back. this caused Kevin Harris to PROPERLY and legally kill the scumbag who shot a boy in the back. Weaver never shot at anyone.
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Yes, the idiot kid shot at law enforcement and got killed by return fire. What the **** did he expect to happen? State, very specifically, what law allows attempted murder if the shooter is under a certain age....oh wait.

But I forgot, you and scumbags like McVeigh don't care about that. To you, civilians should be allowed to murder law enforcement with impunity. Guess what? That isn't how the real world works.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Oh really? What happened in Somalia, the USSR, Nazi Germany, and so many other places is an "opinion" now?
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Nope. Your quote, which is extremely specific ("Guns in the hands of law abiding people therefore don't weaken, limit, or even challenge tyranny, as some claim.") is an opinion., which you have not supported with conclusive data.

If you had said, "Sometimes, Guns in the hands of law abiding people are not adequate to overcome superior forces", your examples might be considered supportive of your assertion.

This whole exchange is pretty irrelevant anyway. The fact that you are using an example like Somalia in an argument about the US only displays that you lack confidence in your own opinions. If the day actually comes that modern law-abiding US adults actually need to resist tyranny, we will both find out for sure just how effective an armed populace actually can be.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Yep, there were a lot of morons out there who still think there's actually a secret plot to take people's guns. In reality......not so much.

Buddy, just reading the justifications for Weaver shows you that gun obsessives think there should be two legal systems, one for them and one for the little people. The fact remains that no one would have died if Weaver hadn't decided he was above the law.
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I don't know the details on Weaver but that is just one example. You can't base your assumptions on all gun enthusiasts just on that one case.
 
Wan said:
I doubt it. Nowadays nobody cares when a white person dies. Like you, for example.

Are you a minority?
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Oh look, more "white people are the real victims" crap.

I save my sympathy for people who don't get their family killed out of sheer stupidity and arrogance.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Yes, the idiot kid shot at law enforcement and got killed by return fire. What the **** did he expect to happen? State, very specifically, what law allows attempted murder if the shooter is under a certain age....oh wait.

But I forgot, you and scumbags like McVeigh don't care about that. To you, civilians should be allowed to murder law enforcement with impunity. Guess what? That isn't how the real world works.
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It is debatable whether what any of those people did to the feds constitutes murder of law enforcement or not.
 
DebateChallenge said:
I don't know the details on Weaver but that is just one example. You can't base your assumptions on all gun enthusiasts just on that one case.
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Oh, I don't. I base it off a consistent defense of numerous scumbags, for example David Koresh; a pathological hatred of the government for enforcing the law; and the anti semitism and racism of the "militia movement" who compose so many "gun enthusiasts"
 
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