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How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd[W:55]

Re: How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd

Your posting is no more than demonstration of cognitive failure, and in this case, its about aiding and abetting treason because the opposite is something you pretend to not understand.

I suspect English isn't your native language....
 
Re: How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd

I suspect English isn't your native language....

Another pretense for not being able to understand that is FAKE. Trying to falsely demonstrate you do not understand is a pitiful act aiding and abetting treason by trying to disable defense of the constitution.
 
Re: How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd

I suspect English isn't your native language....

Waddy makes it very clear by its posting that protecting the 2nd AMD is not a priority, but diminishing the ultimate function of free speech is.

When waddy does not provide another way for Citizens to unify effectively to alter or abolish government destructive to unaleinable rights, waddy approves of the demise of the constitution because I bring these point up to defend it. Or, waddy is just unreasonably opinionated or dumb. But waddy provides no reason, and the sophistication of evasion says waddy ain't dumb. All considers, it appears waddy has an agenda.
 
Re: How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd

Waddy makes it very clear by its posting that protecting the 2nd AMD is not a priority, but diminishing the ultimate function of free speech is.

When waddy does not provide another way for Citizens to unify effectively to alter or abolish government destructive to unaleinable rights, waddy approves of the demise of the constitution because I bring these point up to defend it. Or, waddy is just unreasonably opinionated or dumb. But waddy provides no reason, and the sophistication of evasion says waddy ain't dumb. All considers, it appears waddy has an agenda.

still gobbledegook. But yes, my "agenda" is to protect the Second Amendment, which is an individual right.
 
Re: How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd

Waddy makes it very clear by its posting that protecting the 2nd AMD is not a priority, but diminishing the ultimate function of free speech is.

When waddy does not provide another way for Citizens to unify effectively to alter or abolish government destructive to unaleinable rights, waddy approves of the demise of the constitution because I bring these point up to defend it. Or, waddy is just unreasonably opinionated or dumb. But waddy provides no reason, and the sophistication of evasion says waddy ain't dumb. All considers, it appears waddy has an agenda.

I suspect English isn't your native language....

Moderator's Warning:
The personal snarking needs to stop. Focus on the topic of the thread and not each other. You all are not the topic of the thread.
 
Re: How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd

Moderator's Warning:
The personal snarking needs to stop. Focus on the topic of the thread and not each other. You all are not the topic of the thread.

Gina, this is too important to wait for accountability. This is our future, this is our constitution, this is our survival. If I MUST push it to get people to continue communicating I will. I have 20 years experience in doing what I'm doing, on over 100 forums, and this is a necessity, not "snarking". If waddy is sincere, he will reasonably try to defend himself. So far he has not, his simply repeated what he has not supported.

I understand your job too, but this is America, and treason is not permitted on private property, waddy may be aiding and abetting that.

The following links and info is real. I've been dealing with it for years.

Obama confidant?s spine-chilling proposal | Salon.com

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/

MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos

British spy agency taps cables, shares with NSA: Guardian | Reuters
"For decades, the NSA and GCHQ have worked as close partners, sharing intelligence under an arrangement known as the UKUSA agreement. They also collaborate with eavesdropping agencies in Canada, Australia and New Zealand under an arrangement known as the "Five Eyes" alliance."
 
Re: How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd

Only the people can defend and uphold the constitution when tyrants use their power to corrupt the powerful mechanisms of society. When there are hundreds of millions of people as there are today it is obvious that the people must be enabled to educate each other in the truth, then debate to form educated opinions within an exercise of the PURPOSE of free speech. With this, any information about destruction of unalienable rights can be shared, understood and reacted to with a unified response.

It is quite clear that corporate controlled media is un America if it is not accommodating the peoples unity and instead using their power to manipulate the people as consumers to be controlled for the increase of corporate profits.

And the reason the 1st Amendment is first, is because America stands for peace because peace does not compromise unalienable rights. If the 1st Amendment is well used, the 2nd is not needed. With the unity possible using communication technology, the right to bear arms can be preserved in unity, making an armed, unified populace formidable to any force that might seek to dominate it.

Accordingly, any who profess to stand to protect the 2A, must first stand to see that the PURPOSE of free speech is robust in its function of enabling unity that can defend the constitution and protect unalienable rights which includes the right to bear arms.
 
Re: How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd

In Rights of Man, published in 1791, Thomas Paine argued that: “Every age and generation must be as free to act for itself, in all cases, as the ages and generations which preceded it. The vanity and presumption of governing beyond the grave is the most ridiculous and insolent of all tyrannies.”

America in 21st century must not be bound by the writings of a 250 year-old document.
 
Re: How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd

In Rights of Man, published in 1791, Thomas Paine argued that: “Every age and generation must be as free to act for itself, in all cases, as the ages and generations which preceded it. The vanity and presumption of governing beyond the grave is the most ridiculous and insolent of all tyrannies.”

America in 21st century must not be bound by the writings of a 250 year-old document.

Surely. We could prevent all child porn if we simply didn't have that pesky 4th Amendment, and just imagine the loads of hurt feelings we could avoid if only good speech was allowed. Why, the savings in safe spaces alone would make it worth while. The police would never arrest anyone who wasn't guilty, so no need for the 5th Amendment, either.

The Framers were wise enough to recognize that things change, and included Article V to allow necessary cages to be made. Find a recent red / blue map of the states. Start counting red states. Stop when you get to 13.
 
Re: How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd

In Rights of Man, published in 1791, Thomas Paine argued that: “Every age and generation must be as free to act for itself, in all cases, as the ages and generations which preceded it. The vanity and presumption of governing beyond the grave is the most ridiculous and insolent of all tyrannies.”

America in 21st century must not be bound by the writings of a 250 year-old document.

Do you see the irony in this post?
 
Re: How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd

In Rights of Man, published in 1791, Thomas Paine argued that: “Every age and generation must be as free to act for itself, in all cases, as the ages and generations which preceded it. The vanity and presumption of governing beyond the grave is the most ridiculous and insolent of all tyrannies.”

America in 21st century must not be bound by the writings of a 250 year-old document.

Paine's writing and philosophy after 1787 are irrelevant and antithetical to the foundation of the US and the Constitution. That is why he was spurned and reviled in the US and why only six people only showed up for his funeral. The "Rights of Man" was a foolish rebuttal to Burke.
 
Re: How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd

Quote Originally Posted by Aristaeus View Post
In Rights of Man, published in 1791, Thomas Paine argued that: “Every age and generation must be as free to act for itself, in all cases, as the ages and generations which preceded it. The vanity and presumption of governing beyond the grave is the most ridiculous and insolent of all tyrannies.”

America in 21st century must not be bound by the writings of a 250 year-old document.

Paine's writing and philosophy after 1787 are irrelevant and antithetical to the foundation of the US and the Constitution. That is why he was spurned and reviled in the US and why only six people only showed up for his funeral. The "Rights of Man" was a foolish rebuttal to Burke.

I agree because there are natural rights that every generation as human being must have because they are unalienable and vital to life. It is proper for a constitution to include protection for them as reserved rights.

The spirit of the 9th Amendment accommodates unforeseen need for enumeration of rights along with Article V
 
Re: How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd

I agree because there are natural rights that every generation as human being must have because they are unalienable and vital to life. It is proper for a constitution to include protection for them as reserved rights.

The spirit of the 9th Amendment accommodates unforeseen need for enumeration of rights along with Article V

The Ninth Amendment was actually a rule of construction that Madison created at the behest of the states to counter any abuse of the neccessary and proper clause. It has an interesting history.
 
Re: How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd

Surely. We could prevent all child porn if we simply didn't have that pesky 4th Amendment, and just imagine the loads of hurt feelings we could avoid if only good speech was allowed. Why, the savings in safe spaces alone would make it worth while. The police would never arrest anyone who wasn't guilty, so no need for the 5th Amendment, either.

The Framers were wise enough to recognize that things change, and included Article V to allow necessary cages to be made. Find a recent red / blue map of the states. Start counting red states. Stop when you get to 13.

Necessary cages to be made.

Oh the irony
 
Re: How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd

The Ninth Amendment was actually a rule of construction that Madison created at the behest of the states to counter any abuse of the neccessary and proper clause. It has an interesting history.

There are other earlier uses by the First Nations People too.

~~~~~Prior to 1871 the United States participated in a treaty making process with the First Nations because this technique was the obvious "legal" answer to westward expansion. Treaties, as defined by the Supreme Court did not incorporate a "grant of rights to Indians, but a grant of rights from them." Originally treaties were contracts between sovereign nations and accordingly were "the supreme law of the land." If Wasichu wasn't smart enough to think of everything he wanted and get same into the relevant treaty then "any right not expressly extinguished by a treaty...is reserved to the tribe." This is known as the "reserved rights doctrine." (Pevar)
As time, disease, despair, genocidal activity, public opinion and overwhelming superiority in terms of combatant bodies took their toll, the need for defining the First Nations as sovereign passed. "It was at this point that an effort to reconcile official terminology with the semantics of the general public began to emerge" and the "word 'tribe' completely [displaced] the word 'nation' in the legal discourse [which] lead to congressional termination of treaty-making with Indians in 1871." (Churchill) The First Nations:

"...at one time had had enough power to make a favorable cession of lands a diplomatic triumph for the United States. But from the early nineteenth century on, perceptive men had seen the incongruity of treating Indian tribes as equals, and as demands for reform in Indian affairs grew during and immediately after the Civil War, the treaty system came under increasing attack." (Prucha)~~~~

Most importantly, it can accommodate our adaptation on a larger scale. This is a time when we need it.
 
Re: How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd

There are other earlier uses by the First Nations People too.

~~~~~Prior to 1871 the United States participated in a treaty making process with the First Nations because this technique was the obvious "legal" answer to westward expansion. Treaties, as defined by the Supreme Court did not incorporate a "grant of rights to Indians, but a grant of rights from them." Originally treaties were contracts between sovereign nations and accordingly were "the supreme law of the land." If Wasichu wasn't smart enough to think of everything he wanted and get same into the relevant treaty then "any right not expressly extinguished by a treaty...is reserved to the tribe." This is known as the "reserved rights doctrine." (Pevar)
As time, disease, despair, genocidal activity, public opinion and overwhelming superiority in terms of combatant bodies took their toll, the need for defining the First Nations as sovereign passed. "It was at this point that an effort to reconcile official terminology with the semantics of the general public began to emerge" and the "word 'tribe' completely [displaced] the word 'nation' in the legal discourse [which] lead to congressional termination of treaty-making with Indians in 1871." (Churchill) The First Nations:

"...at one time had had enough power to make a favorable cession of lands a diplomatic triumph for the United States. But from the early nineteenth century on, perceptive men had seen the incongruity of treating Indian tribes as equals, and as demands for reform in Indian affairs grew during and immediately after the Civil War, the treaty system came under increasing attack." (Prucha)~~~~

Most importantly, it can accommodate our adaptation on a larger scale. This is a time when we need it.

There is a reserved rights doctrine, but it is synonymous with the positive rights of American Indians under a treaty, water rights, and employment rights.
 
Re: How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd

There is a reserved rights doctrine, but it is synonymous with the positive rights of American Indians under a treaty, water rights, and employment rights.

Hmm, that does not sound like the 9th.

~~~Ninth Amendment - Unenumerated Rights
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.~~~​

Nor does it have the intent of this.

"If Wasichu wasn't smart enough to think of everything he wanted and get same into the relevant treaty then "any right not expressly extinguished by a treaty...is reserved to the tribe."

Which says that if it is extinguished its gone.

The 9th states that what is listed is not all rights, or what is not listed is retained by the people.

But, let us try application of it to preservation of the constitution.

The Declaration of Independence states the people have a right to alter or abolish government destructive to unalienable rights. The constitution provides the law of Article V which represents an orderly method of altering or abolishing.

If the framers intended for the people to alter or abolish government destructive to unalienable rights, what did they intend serve the purpose of enabling the unity in the people required to actually alter or abolish a government powerful enough to be destructive to unalienable rights?
 
Re: How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd

Hmm, that does not sound like the 9th.

~~~Ninth Amendment - Unenumerated Rights
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.~~~​

Nor does it have the intent of this.

"If Wasichu wasn't smart enough to think of everything he wanted and get same into the relevant treaty then "any right not expressly extinguished by a treaty...is reserved to the tribe."

Which says that if it is extinguished its gone.

The 9th states that what is listed is not all rights, or what is not listed is retained by the people.

But, let us try application of it to preservation of the constitution.

The Declaration of Independence states the people have a right to alter or abolish government destructive to unalienable rights. The constitution provides the law of Article V which represents an orderly method of altering or abolishing.

If the framers intended for the people to alter or abolish government destructive to unalienable rights, what did they intend serve the purpose of enabling the unity in the people required to actually alter or abolish a government powerful enough to be destructive to unalienable rights?

I have a response, but it will not post because of the length. Let me figure out how to split it up.
 
Re: How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd

I have a response, but it will not post because of the length. Let me figure out how to split it up.

Hopefully you can figure that out.
 
Re: How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd

Hopefully you can figure that out.

I have parsed it down to two brief posts. This is the background and intent of the Ninth Amendment in that context. The plain language using seventeenth century definitions and word usage, gives the same intent.

Number One.​

It is important to understand that the Ninth and Tenth Amendments were drafted at the insistence of the states to limit the federal government from a broad interpretation of Article I powers. This demand aligns with the legal English of the Constitution of potestas stricte interpretatur government powers must be strictly interpreted, and in dubiis, non praesumitur pro potentia or the presumption is not in favor of a power.

The states' proposals conveyed powers denied to the federal government, not the grant of rights not enumerated. Example the Virginia Ratifying convention’s seventeenth article:

That those clauses which declare that Congress shall not exercise certain powers, be not interpreted, in any manner whatsoever, to extend the powers of Congress; But that they be construed either as making exceptions to the specified powers where this shall be the case, or otherwise, as inserted merely for greater caution.​

Madison’s proposed Eleventh Amendment on June 8, 1789, was based on the states’ insistence of a limitation on the federal government:

The exceptions here or elsewhere in the Constitution, made in favor of particular rights, shall not be so construed as to diminish the just importance of other rights retained by the people, or as to enlarge the powers delegated by the Constitution; but either as actual limitations of such powers, or as inserted merely for greater caution.​

Congress pared it down, after several modifications, to the current language:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.​

The new language did not change the meaning or intent of Madison’s original amendment. But the states did not accept the new language. Madison explained that the meaning did not change.

Edmond Randolph was the most vocal objector at the Virginia ratifying convention. Madison addressed Randolph’s persistence after Madison had explained that the meaning of the Eleventh Amendment did not change to the Virginia ratifying convention to Washington in a letter dated December 5, 1789, noting that there was no difference between the original and new amended language of the Eleventh Amendment and that they both prevented the interpretation of Article I powers to be broadly interpreted to expand the federal government’s powers:

The difficulty started agst. the amendments is really unlucky, and the more to be regretted as it springs from a friend to the Constitution. It is a still greater cause of regret, if the distinction be, as it appears to me, altogether fanciful. If a line can be drawn between the powers granted and the rights retained, it would seem to be the same thing, whether the latter be secured, by declaring that they shall not be abridged, or that the former shall not be extended. If no line can be drawn, a declaration in either form would amount to nothing. If the distinction were just it does not seem to be of sufficient importance to justify the risk of losing the amendts. of furnishing a handle to the disaffected, and of arming N. C. with a pretext, if she be disposed, to prolong her exile from the Union.​
 
Re: How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd

Hopefully you can figure that out.

Number Two.​

From the ratification of the Ninth Amendment until FDR, the Ninth Amendment was understood to prevent the broad interpretation of Article I powers.
Madison also made the same argument against the national bank. Note that individual rights are not mentioned as the intent of the Eleventh Amendment:

The proposed Bank would interfere so as indirectly to defeat a State Bank at the same place. It would directly interfere with the rights of the States, to prohibit as well as to establish Banks, and the circulation of Bank Notes.

The explanatory amendments proposed by Congress themselves, at least, would be good authority with them; all these renunciations of power proceeded on a rule of construction, excluding the latitude now contended for. These explanations were the more to be respected, as they had not only been proposed by Congress, but ratified by nearly three-fourths of the states. He read several of the articles proposed, remarking particularly on the 11th. and 12th. the former, as guarding against a latitude of interpretation — the latter, as excluding every source of power not within the constitution itself.​

The plain language of the Ninth Amendment also supports the original intent of the amendment, especially the eighteenth meaning of the word “construed,” which regarded interpretation. The meaning of the word “people” is defined in Article IV:

The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states.​

The people are not the collective people of the United States, but the citizens of each state individually via their states and their representatives. This aligns with the meaning of “we the people” in the preamble as the phrase “United States” is plural, not singular as used today.
 
Re: How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd

I have parsed it down to two brief posts. This is the background and intent of the Ninth Amendment in that context. The plain language using seventeenth century definitions and word usage, gives the same intent.

Number One.​

It is important to understand that the Ninth and Tenth Amendments were drafted at the insistence of the states to limit the federal government from a broad interpretation of Article I powers. This demand aligns with the legal English of the Constitution of potestas stricte interpretatur government powers must be strictly interpreted, and in dubiis, non praesumitur pro potentia or the presumption is not in favor of a power.

The states' proposals conveyed powers denied to the federal government, not the grant of rights not enumerated. Example the Virginia Ratifying convention’s seventeenth article:

That those clauses which declare that Congress shall not exercise certain powers, be not interpreted, in any manner whatsoever, to extend the powers of Congress; But that they be construed either as making exceptions to the specified powers where this shall be the case, or otherwise, as inserted merely for greater caution.​

Madison’s proposed Eleventh Amendment on June 8, 1789, was based on the states’ insistence of a limitation on the federal government:

The exceptions here or elsewhere in the Constitution, made in favor of particular rights, shall not be so construed as to diminish the just importance of other rights retained by the people, or as to enlarge the powers delegated by the Constitution; but either as actual limitations of such powers, or as inserted merely for greater caution.​

Congress pared it down, after several modifications, to the current language:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.​

The new language did not change the meaning or intent of Madison’s original amendment. But the states did not accept the new language. Madison explained that the meaning did not change.

Edmond Randolph was the most vocal objector at the Virginia ratifying convention. Madison addressed Randolph’s persistence after Madison had explained that the meaning of the Eleventh Amendment did not change to the Virginia ratifying convention to Washington in a letter dated December 5, 1789, noting that there was no difference between the original and new amended language of the Eleventh Amendment and that they both prevented the interpretation of Article I powers to be broadly interpreted to expand the federal government’s powers:

The difficulty started agst. the amendments is really unlucky, and the more to be regretted as it springs from a friend to the Constitution. It is a still greater cause of regret, if the distinction be, as it appears to me, altogether fanciful. If a line can be drawn between the powers granted and the rights retained, it would seem to be the same thing, whether the latter be secured, by declaring that they shall not be abridged, or that the former shall not be extended. If no line can be drawn, a declaration in either form would amount to nothing. If the distinction were just it does not seem to be of sufficient importance to justify the risk of losing the amendts. of furnishing a handle to the disaffected, and of arming N. C. with a pretext, if she be disposed, to prolong her exile from the Union.​

Hmm, maybe you forgot the question:

If the framers intended for the people to alter or abolish government destructive to unalienable rights, what did they intend serve the purpose of enabling the unity in the people required to actually alter or abolish a government powerful enough to be destructive to unalienable rights?

Nothing in what you wrote addresses that vital issue.
 
Re: How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd

Number Two.​

From the ratification of the Ninth Amendment until FDR, the Ninth Amendment was understood to prevent the broad interpretation of Article I powers.
Madison also made the same argument against the national bank. Note that individual rights are not mentioned as the intent of the Eleventh Amendment:

The proposed Bank would interfere so as indirectly to defeat a State Bank at the same place. It would directly interfere with the rights of the States, to prohibit as well as to establish Banks, and the circulation of Bank Notes.

The explanatory amendments proposed by Congress themselves, at least, would be good authority with them; all these renunciations of power proceeded on a rule of construction, excluding the latitude now contended for. These explanations were the more to be respected, as they had not only been proposed by Congress, but ratified by nearly three-fourths of the states. He read several of the articles proposed, remarking particularly on the 11th. and 12th. the former, as guarding against a latitude of interpretation — the latter, as excluding every source of power not within the constitution itself.​

The plain language of the Ninth Amendment also supports the original intent of the amendment, especially the eighteenth meaning of the word “construed,” which regarded interpretation. The meaning of the word “people” is defined in Article IV:

The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states.​

The people are not the collective people of the United States, but the citizens of each state individually via their states and their representatives. This aligns with the meaning of “we the people” in the preamble as the phrase “United States” is plural, not singular as used today.

Very good. It is nice to see that you apprehend the fact that "we the people" are not the people of the several states collectively, but rather a majority in each state, wherein the state represents them. Americans do not know this fact. They actually think there is such a thing as an American Citizen. No, there are only state Citizens.

State Citizen or US Citizen?

But still, this question is unanswered.

If the framers intended for the people to alter or abolish government destructive to unalienable rights, what did they intend serve the purpose of enabling the unity in the people required to actually alter or abolish a government powerful enough to be destructive to unalienable rights?
 
Re: How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd

Hmm, maybe you forgot the question:



Nothing in what you wrote addresses that vital issue.

The question was did the Ninth Amendment protect individual unenumerated rights or was it a centric protection of state's rights and powers as a rule of construction limiting the broad interpretation of Article 1, Section 8 congressional powers via the necessary and proper clause.
 
Re: How the 1st AMD. & the 2nd AMD are related and the 1st needed to defend the 2nd

Very good. It is nice to see that you apprehend the fact that "we the people" are not the people of the several states collectively, but rather a majority in each state, wherein the state represents them. Americans do not know this fact. They actually think there is such a thing as an American Citizen. No, there are only state Citizens.

State Citizen or US Citizen?

But still, this question is unanswered.

I agree.

Citizens of the US collectively is antithetical to the constitution's compact between the state's doctrine and the anti-democratic doctrine of the Constitution.
 
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