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Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243, 2001]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Cordelier said:
If semi-auto rifles weren't any more deadly than any other form of firearm, I wouldn't be here arguing against them. I'm a gun-owner myself. I have been pretty much all of my life. The last thing I'd ever want to see is a ban on all firearms. But I've also seen what these types of guns can do... and I know what they were designed to do. There's no reason whatsoever to have them on the streets.

Mass shootings with a semi-auto rifle have 24% higher fatalities... 67% higher wounded per incident. For what? So a bunch of ying-yangs can go out and play weekend warrior and arm up to overthrow the gub'mint? Screw that.
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Are semi-automatic rifles in common use for lawful purposes?

What happens when there are no semiautomatic rifles exist and some other type of firearm is the new leader in fatalities in mass shootings? Ban those too, and so on until there are no firearms?

How many people in the last 20 years have been killed in a mass shooting by a shooter using a semiautomatic rifle? What's the yearly average?
 
Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Cordelier said:
Sheer historical ignorance.... I suggest you read up on the Trail of Tears and all of the Indian Wars waged by the United States.
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Uhhh, I am American Indian. And I think I have a pretty good idea about both the wars (there were many of them), and the Trail of Tears.

In reality, the Trail of Tears only involved a handful of tribes. And in almost every case one that had been at war with the United States. That is why most of the Algonquin Nations are still where they are to this day. And while some of the Potawatomie were moved to Oklahoma, not all of them were. A lot of tribes from the Great Plains west are exactly where they have always been.

And the Cherokee? They had started moving to Arkansas and Oklahoma over 2 decades prior to the Trail of Tears even started.

Yes, I have read quite a bit about that time in our history. As well as talked to my great-grandfather who grew up hearing the family stories. Maybe you need to learn more about the entire history of the American Indians, and not just some of them.
 
Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Rucker61 said:
Are semi-automatic rifles in common use for lawful purposes?

What happens when there are no semiautomatic rifles exist and some other type of firearm is the new leader in fatalities in mass shootings? Ban those too, and so on until there are no firearms?

How many people in the last 20 years have been killed in a mass shooting by a shooter using a semiautomatic rifle? What's the yearly average?
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anyone who claims the second amendment allows the federal government to properly ban some types of firearms immediately proclaims they haven't a clue about the bill of rights and the concept of a negative restriction
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243, 2001]

TurtleDude said:
You really missed the point. the reason why we have a high rate of gun homicides is several democratic party run counties that feature mainly blacks killing other blacks -almost always with illegally owned firearms.
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And what study shows that? True, democratic counties that had high rates of crime used to feature the Irish, then Italians, Jews, and Germans... Germans? A NYC newspaper editorialized back in the day that cops would have nothing to do if it weren't for the Irish and Germans.... Germans? Later on, people said Puerto Ricans were the problem, unless you lived on the west coast, where Mexicans got that honor. See a pattern here? Irish, Italians, blacks, Mexicans all migrated (not sure about Jews, Germans or Puerto Ricans) from a rural to an urban enviornment and crime increased. They have always been represented by Democrats, who tend to refer to them as fellow humans. Strangely, the exception is Italians, who tend to vote republican. And of course, my people, the Italians, never got involved in crime. Also not to be outdone, Republican-ruled areas now contribute, too, with opioid dealing and all.

But to take you seriously, do you see our problem as illegally owned firearms, black people, or democrats?
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243, 2001]

Nickyjo said:
And what study shows that? True, democratic counties that had high rates of crime used to feature the Irish, then Italians, Jews, and Germans... Germans? A NYC newspaper editorialized back in the day that cops would have nothing to do if it weren't for the Irish and Germans.... Germans? Later on, people said Puerto Ricans were the problem, unless you lived on the west coast, where Mexicans got that honor. See a pattern here? Irish, Italians, blacks, Mexicans all migrated (not sure about Jews, Germans or Puerto Ricans) from a rural to an urban enviornment and crime increased. They have always been represented by Democrats, who tend to refer to them as fellow humans. Strangely, the exception is Italians, who tend to vote republican. And of course, my people, the Italians, never got involved in crime. Also not to be outdone, Republican-ruled areas now contribute, too, with opioid dealing and all.

But to take you seriously, do you see our problem as illegally owned firearms, black people, or democrats?
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1) the war on drugs

2) democrats who spend more time PRETENDING to do something about violent crime when their real goal is harassing lawful gun owners and not upsetting criminals

3) a culture that is the result of many things-some 300 years old-that eschews two parent families and self responsibility
 
Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

TurtleDude said:
anyone who claims the second amendment allows the federal government to properly ban some types of firearms immediately proclaims they haven't a clue about the bill of rights and the concept of a negative restriction
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Regulation is not Prohibition, regardless of the form of private property.
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243, 2001]

TurtleDude said:
1) the war on drugs

True, but it's more than that: crime is down, despite the war on drugs... In general in the world, less control of guns, more gun deaths. Gun control is as old in the US as the Gunfight At the OK Corral.

2) democrats who spend more time PRETENDING to do something about violent crime when their real goal is harassing lawful gun owners and not upsetting criminals

really? You found evidenced of this in some Democratic Party document? I don't want to harass you, just want to submit you to a requirement or two before you purchase a gun, with suitable exceptions and in accord with the Supreme Court's decision.

3) a culture that is the result of many things-some 300 years old-that eschews two parent families and self responsibility
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How is the urban experience of blacks who immigrated to northern and other cities any different than any other urban experience by newcomers?
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243, 2001]

Nickyjo said:
How is the urban experience of blacks who immigrated to northern and other cities any different than any other urban experience by newcomers?
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how is that relevant?
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243, 2001]

TurtleDude said:
how is that relevant?
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Simple... Same things were said by previous populations who inhabited our cities. Same song about blacks, Italians, Irish, Jews, Germans... Different prejudicial beat, but attacked on the family structure, violence. (The Four Tops sang that years ago, obviously taking responsibility and making themselves successful despite the burdens of race.)

Funny, Italians, my people, popped out singer after singer, creating a different positive stereotype. My family destroyed it. None of us can sing.

Your analysis of blacks has a rich tradition and history, applied to many other nationalities who migrated to cities.
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243, 2001]

Nickyjo said:
Simple... Same things were said by previous populations who inhabited our cities. Same song about blacks, Italians, Irish, Jews, Germans... Different prejudicial beat, but attacked on the family structure, violence. (The Four Tops sang that years ago, obviously taking responsibility and making themselves successful despite the burdens of race.)

Funny, Italians, my people, popped out singer after singer, creating a different positive stereotype. My family destroyed it. None of us can sing.

Your analysis of blacks has a rich tradition and history, applied to many other nationalities who migrated to cities.
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fact is-a ton of gun crime is caused by inner city blacks living in areas usually run by Democrats and often under silly gun laws. Yet, blacks have far lower rates of legal gun ownership than whites. This sort of destroys the nonsense liberal gun haters spew that the availability of legal guns causes crime to increase
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243, 2001]

TurtleDude said:
fact is-a ton of gun crime is caused by inner city blacks living in areas usually run by Democrats and often under silly gun laws. Yet, blacks have far lower rates of legal gun ownership than whites. This sort of destroys the nonsense liberal gun haters spew that the availability of legal guns causes crime to increase
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Who says the guns were not legally purchased before the gangbangers got them? Every gun I own was purchased legally without a background check.

But hey, have to "admire" your consistent distortion of reality like any good right wing parrot.

BTW, tell us how many mass shootings have been perpetrated by Blacks? School shootings? How about Church shootings?
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243, 2001]

Old Trapper said:
Who says the guns were not legally purchased before the gangbangers got them? Every gun I own was purchased legally without a background check.

But hey, have to "admire" your consistent distortion of reality like any good right wing parrot.

BTW, tell us how many mass shootings have been perpetrated by Blacks? School shootings? How about Church shootings?
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I don't know what drives your idiotic anti gun arguments but mass shootings are extremely rare. The Gun hate movement focuses on them because they know they cannot ban the guns most used for murder (handguns) and they cannot make hay over the fact that Blacks living under Democrat gun laws cause most of the killings. SO they fixate on extremely rare incidents to terrify the slow witted sheeple and try to ban guns that are almost always owned by the most avid lawful gun owners. The entire jihad against MSRs is to harass pro gun activists.
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243, 2001]

TurtleDude said:
fact is-a ton of gun crime is caused by inner city blacks living in areas usually run by Democrats and often under silly gun laws. Yet, blacks have far lower rates of legal gun ownership than whites. This sort of destroys the nonsense liberal gun haters spew that the availability of legal guns causes crime to increase
Click to expand...

Perhaps... Just substitute Irish, Italians, Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, etc. for blacks at different times or locations. (Btw make a good argument for national silly gun laws.). I don't know that the availability of guns, legal or otherwise, causes more crime, just that their presence causes more homicides, more fatal crimes, and more suicides. Compare homicide rates in the rest of the developed world with rates in the US. I think that only Ukraine and Russia beat us out, Russia by a lot, Ukraine by a little. US far and away has the highest gun ownership rate in the world. Only Swaziland, Venezuela, Jamaica, Panama, and Colombia beat us in death rates from guns. When a large country like the US only has competition from small counties (excepting Russia) in these stats, we just might, with the permission of the NRA of course, study the issue. There just might be a connection with the number of guns we have.

Also, what is illegal gun ownership?
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243, 2001]

Nickyjo said:
Perhaps... Just substitute Irish, Italians, Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, etc. for blacks at different times or locations. (Btw make a good argument for national silly gun laws.). I don't know that the availability of guns, legal or otherwise, causes more crime, just that their presence causes more homicides, more fatal crimes, and more suicides. Compare homicide rates in the rest of the developed world with rates in the US. I think that only Ukraine and Russia beat us out, Russia by a lot, Ukraine by a little. US far and away has the highest gun ownership rate in the world. Only Swaziland, Venezuela, Jamaica, Panama, and Colombia beat us in death rates from guns. When a large country like the US only has competition from small counties (excepting Russia) in these stats, we just might, with the permission of the NRA of course, study the issue. There just might be a connection with the number of guns we have.

Also, what is illegal gun ownership?
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tell me what is your solution for what you complain about
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243, 2001]

Old Trapper said:
BTW, tell us how many mass shootings have been perpetrated by Blacks? School shootings? How about Church shootings?
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Blacks commit about the same number of mass shootings you'd expect, in line with US demographics:

https://www.cnn.com/2015/06/27/us/mass-shootings/index.html

If you want to look at the perpetrators of the school shootings here for, say for the last 30 years, we'd love to see your results. You might be surprised.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243, 2001]

Rucker61 said:
Blacks commit about the same number of mass shootings you'd expect, in line with US demographics:

https://www.cnn.com/2015/06/27/us/mass-shootings/index.html
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16% according to your article. Since they are 13% of the population that is not out of line. And it discredits to tale Turtle told.

If you want to look at the perpetrators of the school shootings here for, say for the last 30 years, we'd love to see your results. You might be surprised.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States
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Nope. Will still be mostly Whites.

In any event, it still does not justify the "need" for an AR-15. Even Turtle claimed that most of Black crime occurs in the "inner city".

Just as a question here, if you get your way, and armed teachers are placed in the schools, are you going to arm them with AR-15's which you claim would be the most effective defense weapon?
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243, 2001]

Old Trapper said:
16% according to your article. Since they are 13% of the population that is not out of line. And it discredits to tale Turtle told.



Nope. Will still be mostly Whites.

In any event, it still does not justify the "need" for an AR-15. Even Turtle claimed that most of Black crime occurs in the "inner city".

Just as a question here, if you get your way, and armed teachers are placed in the schools, are you going to arm them with AR-15's which you claim would be the most effective defense weapon?
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More than half the murders in the USA are committed by blacks
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243, 2001]

BTW need has no relevance in these discussions
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243, 2001]

TurtleDude said:
tell me what is your solution for what you complain about
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There is no solution. But off the top of my head, one could try letting the CDC study the issue of how guns are obtained and distributed, contract with other groups (NRA?) to do/fund the same, get gun rights advocates in Congress and legislatures to switch and support increased mental health services they have previously opposed, have weapons tests fired and data stored, outlaw transfers of ownership without background checks, remind the public that the NRA apparently used to support gun controls they now oppose, require locks on guns, try to create dialog between inner city dwellers fearful their kids may be shot and gun advocates who believed Obama was going to take their weapons, shame idiots like Ingraham, etc. Some of these ideas may be useless, but discussing them might reveal which ones might help, and the point is not to end gun violence (to paraphrase Camus or Sartre), but to reduce the number of victims.
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243, 2001]

Nickyjo said:
There is no solution. But off the top of my head, one could try letting the CDC study the issue of how guns are obtained and distributed, contract with other groups (NRA?) to do/fund the same, get gun rights advocates in Congress and legislatures to switch and support increased mental health services they have previously opposed, have weapons tests fired and data stored, outlaw transfers of ownership without background checks, remind the public that the NRA apparently used to support gun controls they now oppose, require locks on guns, try to create dialog between inner city dwellers fearful their kids may be shot and gun advocates who believed Obama was going to take their weapons, shame idiots like Ingraham, etc. Some of these ideas may be useless, but discussing them might reveal which ones might help, and the point is not to end gun violence (to paraphrase Camus or Sartre), but to reduce the number of victims.
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how does the CDC have any proper expertise in how guns are distributed?
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243, 2001]

Old Trapper said:
16% according to your article. Since they are 13% of the population that is not out of line. And it discredits to tale Turtle told.
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Turtle was talking about homicide in general, not mass shootings. Blacks are significantly overrepresented in homicide statistics, both as perpetrators and victims. Two very different sets of data.

Nope. Will still be mostly Whites.
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Why do you think that?
In any event, it still does not justify the "need" for an AR-15. Even Turtle claimed that most of Black crime occurs in the "inner city".
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There is no need to justify ownership of any AR-15.

Just as a question here, if you get your way, and armed teachers are placed in the schools, are you going to arm them with AR-15's which you claim would be the most effective defense weapon?
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My claim is that for my home defense, with my skill set and pocketbook, the AR-15 is the most effective defensive firearm for me. For defending a classroom, the only need would be to cover a chokepoint by someone who may not be as well training as I am. As simple as it is, an AR-15 is still a complex firearm to a tyro. A simple striker fired handgun with a large magazine with perhaps a red dot or laser on a rail would likely be a better choice for arming teachers in the classroom. I would also suggest storing it in a double access strongbox and have bulletproof doors with floor jambs to prevent entry.
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243, 2001]

TurtleDude said:
how does the CDC have any proper expertise in how guns are distributed?
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Apparently they produced a study during the Obama administration. You may be happy to know that some gun control advocates were disappointed in the results; others criticized their methodology. So why not have dueling studies? But you asked for suggestions and I provided them off the top of my head.

The inescapable fact is that, for better or worse, gun control has been a part of US history in many places. (As mentioned, look up the OK Corral gunfight. Naturally, AZ now allows guns in bars, tho I believe bar owners can prohibit them and have seen a sign or two.) The NRA, from what I have read, changed its support for control measures following RFK's killing, when they believed potential or actual legislation in Congress went too far. And much like right-to-life groups, they have been a very effective organizer of single issue voters. Even Trump teased politicians about being afraid of the NRA.
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243, 2001]

AR qualified militia should be, counter-fire qualified, fire suppression qualified, And fire-break qualified!
 
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