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Moral decay and corruption killed the kids.

Ray9 said:
Democrats in the Broward County School District from Florida decided that too many kids were getting police records for committing crimes. So they came up with a novel solution-order the police to leave them alone and stop arresting them for crimes at school. At first this appeared to be working like a charm as arrests went way down. They were essentially cooking the books on an issue of cultural and moral decay to get a result that made it a numbers game.

But it backfired. Nikolas Cruz went to a gun store with a clean police record in spite of a long history of what would be criminal threatening and physical assaults anywhere in the country but Florida. Cruz’s spotless, counterfeit background check was a death warrant for his victims.

Seventeen people, mostly students, died a horrific death because a cabal of local politicians and school officials in Florida imposed an ill-advised program of social engineering onto a public that trusted the school district with the safety of their children. Broward County Sherriff, Scot Israel, was shouting from the rooftops that he had reduced crime rates citing the results of the no-arrests scheme that was amassing huge amounts of money in federal grants.

Israel and his political cronies had succeeded in tilting the table to get a result that made it appear the maneuver was working. Israel and Broward county school superintendent, Robert Runcie, silenced opponents by trotting out the altered data of bad policing and it worked right up until Nikolas Cruz exposed the fraud with the corpses of dead kids.

Incredibly Israel was handed control of the surveillance video on the day of the shooting and has publicly stated that he may never release it. The cowardly actions of Scot Peterson, the school resource officer, are documented by students on the scene but the video would likely frame the Broward police inaction as standard policy leading to deaths of the kids.

Now politics and partisan public policy are reverting to the default position of blaming guns for the tragedy as if removing an inert artifact (guns) from the public domain would have saved those kids. It was the public corruption of local politics in Broward County that killed the students.

Punishing the law abiding public for the malfeasance of incompetent officials by taking way their guns will solve nothing. But that’s what some want.
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So, where are links for this?
 
jet57 said:
So, where are links for this?
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https://www.realclearinvestigations...cipline_policy_and_the_parkland_shooting.html

https://theconservativetreehouse.co...ident-notes-promise-program-and-consequences/

https://www.scribd.com/document/372...ecuted-Collaborative-Agreement-Final-Document

https://www.browardprevention.org/behavior/promise/


They were defending the massive infusion of federal funds into the Broward County school district by not arresting juvenile criminals in the schools. This produced scrubbed police records for criminal activity and allowed Cruz to purchase a weapon.
 
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Ray9 said:
https://www.realclearinvestigations...cipline_policy_and_the_parkland_shooting.html

https://theconservativetreehouse.co...ident-notes-promise-program-and-consequences/

https://www.scribd.com/document/372...ecuted-Collaborative-Agreement-Final-Document

https://www.browardprevention.org/behavior/promise/


They were defending the massive infusion of federal funds into the Broward County school district by not arresting juvenile criminals in the schools. This produced scrubbed police records for criminal activity and allowed Cruz to purchase a weapon.
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Juveniles are no often arrested for heavy crimes and "See Something Say Something" was obviously the policy employed to keep kids in school and out of the criminal judicial system. Such a policy in no way facilitated anything Cruz did. Once he was out of school, that system no longer had control over him and he was the charge of adults who had taken responsibility for him. I'd first say those adults failed him and then as an adult, he failed himself.

So, no - this was not Obama's fault.
 
jet57 said:
Juveniles are no often arrested for heavy crimes and "See Something Say Something" was obviously the policy employed to keep kids in school and out of the criminal judicial system. Such a policy in no way facilitated anything Cruz did. Once he was out of school, that system no longer had control over him and he was the charge of adults who had taken responsibility for him. I'd first say those adults failed him and then as an adult, he failed himself.

So, no - this was not Obama's fault.
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Criminal threatening and physical assaults do not disappear from police records and background checks once a person leaves school. That information was scrubbed from Cruz's records while he was in school so a background check saw nothing. This is how he got the gun. It's not rocket science.
 
Ray9 said:
Criminal threatening and physical assaults do not disappear from police records and background checks once a person leaves school. That information was scrubbed from Cruz's records while he was in school so a background check saw nothing. This is how he got the gun. It's not rocket science.
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The information that the authorities needed to investigate Cruz was all there. He got the gun because of Florida's lax laws. None of this had anything to do with Obama.
If you must blame a president, blame GW Bush who overturned the assault weapons ban in the first place.
 
jet57 said:
The information that the authorities needed to investigate Cruz was all there. He got the gun because of Florida's lax laws. None of this had anything to do with Obama.
If you must blame a president, blame GW Bush who overturned the assault weapons ban in the first place.
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Not sure how GW Bush is to blame for “overturning” the AWB. The 1994 AWB had a 10 year sunset clause.
 
jet57 said:
The information that the authorities needed to investigate Cruz was all there. He got the gun because of Florida's lax laws.
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If a single criminal gets a single gun in a state, it's because they have law gun laws. Son of Sam? Lax gun laws. Isle Vista shooter. Las gun laws. Sandy Hook? Lax guns laws.

None of this had anything to do with Obama.
If you must blame a president, blame GW Bush who overturned the assault weapons ban in the first place.
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Sometimes I really don't know if you're serious.
 
Bullride8 said:
Not sure how GW Bush is to blame for “overturning” the AWB. The 1994 AWB had a 10 year sunset clause.
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He allowed it to sunset.
 
Rucker61 said:
If a single criminal gets a single gun in a state, it's because they have law gun laws. Son of Sam? Lax gun laws. Isle Vista shooter. Las gun laws. Sandy Hook? Lax guns laws.



Sometimes I really don't know if you're serious.
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Florida; lax gun laws. Cruz, 17 kids dead.
 
jet57 said:
Florida; lax gun laws. Cruz, 17 kids dead.
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You can't even be truthful when the truth is out there. Only 14 of the dead were students.

San Bernardino, strict laws, 14 dead. Washington Navy Yard, strict laws, 12 dead.

Maybe it's not about "lax laws".
 
Rucker61 said:
He didn't have a choice. The executive branch can't just change laws passed by Congress.
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The congress could have reinstated it and you know it. GW could have asked or demanded that it be reinstated and you know it.
 
Rucker61 said:
You can't even be truthful when the truth is out there. Only 14 of the dead were students.

San Bernardino, strict laws, 14 dead. Washington Navy Yard, strict laws, 12 dead.

Maybe it's not about "lax laws".
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17 counts of premeditated murder and 17 counts of attempted murder
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Look it up.

San Bernadino AR15.

Florida, AR5 lax gun laws 17 dead.
 
jet57 said:
He allowed it to sunset.
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And the AWB did precisely what?

There was statistically no decrease (or increase) in crimes committed with an “assault” rifle. In fact crimes committed with an assault rifle according to the FBI are less than 5% of all reported homicides, and less than 1% of all gun related deaths.

I digress. During the AWB, you could have 3 “evils”. Take your pick: bayonet lug, detachable magazine, pistol grip, flash hider, adjustable stock.

The AWB didn’t restrict anything in a sense. Many, many were sold with just 3 of those features (usually magazine, pistol grip, stock). I own a few, in fact. No different than the “evil” assault rifles.

As I’ve posted on other forums, the AR-15 has been commercially available to civilians for over 50 years. But, school shootings are now just becoming more common. Me thinks society has more to blame than the AR-15. What precisely is the root cause here? Guns? Sure, they enable someone to kill more efficiently. But, what exactly is making these kids able to take another human life?

Dave Grossman has a book out called “On Killing”. While I disagree with a lot of his points, there is definitely some truth to his thesis. There’s a natural resistance to killing a human being. What is enabling these kids to overcome that resistance?

The OP is on to something that we neglect to discuss. 30 years ago, there were plenty of “assault rifles”. School shootings were so rare that you could count them on one hand.

But, you’re right, GWB had the opportunity to renew the AWB. Though, based on the evidence and statistical analysis, I’m not sure what your argument is. Had the AWB continued, would we have the current numbers of school shootings? I’m not sure. My opinion says, yes. They would still be the same numbers. Different methods or weapons, however.
 
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Bullride8 said:
And the AWB did precisely what?

There was statistically no decrease (or increase) in crimes committed with an “assault” rifle. In fact crimes committed with an assault rifle according to the FBI are less than 5% of all reported homicides, and less than 1% of all gun related deaths.

I digress. During the AWB, you could have 3 “evils”. Take your pick: bayonet lug, detachable magazine, pistol grip, flash hider, adjustable stock.

The AWB didn’t restrict anything in a sense. Many, many were sold with just 3 of those features (usually magazine, pistol grip, stock). I own a few, in fact. No different than the “evil” assault rifles.

As I’ve posted on other forums, the AR-15 has been commercially available to civilians for over 50 years. But, school shootings are now just becoming more common. Me thinks society has more to blame than the AR-15. What precisely is the root cause here? Guns? Sure, they enable someone to kill more efficiently. But, what exactly is making these kids able to take another human life?

Dave Grossman has a book out called “On Killing”. While I disagree with a lot of his points, there is definitely some truth to his thesis. There’s a natural resistance to killing a human being. What is enabling these kids to overcome that resistance?

The OP is on to something that we neglect to discuss. 30 years ago, there were plenty of “assault rifles”. School shootings were so rare that you could count them on one hand.

But, you’re right, GWB had the opportunity to renew the AWB. Though, based on the evidence and statistical analysis, I’m not sure what your argument is. Had the AWB continued, would we have the current numbers of school shootings? I’m not sure. My opinion says, yes. They would still be the same numbers. Different methods or weapons, however.
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Were there any mass school shootings with AR15s? Anything in Vegas with assault rifles? Nope.

So that's what it did.
 
jet57 said:
Were there any mass school shootings with AR15s? Anything in Vegas with assault rifles? Nope.

So that's what it did.
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Were "assault weapons" and "high capacity magazines" used at Columbine? Were all of the "assault weapons" owned in 1994 still allowed to be owned, used and sold throughout the AWB? Yes, they were. Were "high capacity magazines" still allowed to be sold? Yes, they were. Were perfectly functional AR-15s allowed to be sold during the AWB? Yes, they were. Was an AK-47 used in the Caltrans shooting? Did the Westside Middle School shooters use an M1 Carbine; Did the Wakefield shooter use an AK-47? Did the Lockheed Martin shooter use a Mini-14?

Since the AWB didn't actually stop the sale of any "assault weapons", why do you think it had an impact on mass shootings?
 
Precisely. I acknowledge that the use of a firearms with the functionality of an AR gave the shooter the means to cause more deaths/damage/shots, etc...than say a bolt gun. Hard to argue against that.

But, again, AR's were available along with everything else before, during, and after the AWB. Mass shootings were almost non-existent up until 1999 Columbine in the middle of the AWB. And, what type of firearms did they use? The spike in mass shootings (however you want to define that) is a statistical anomaly in which the presence of "assault" rifles is NOT a variable. The MEANS to conduct a mass shooting (hi-cap pistols, "assault" rifles, shotguns) have always been there. That is where the argument is fatally flawed. Identify the root cause and fix that. Guess what, it's a damned hard problem to solve, and the solutions are counter to the political left's platform.

If full confiscation of semi-automatic rifles occurred and mass shootings continue to rise (and I most assuredly think they would based on our social and political climate), what is the next solution? You may have solved a problem, but did you solve the right problem?

Having had the pleasure to interact with multiple individuals in all levels of government, second and third order of effects are often far outside politicians minds when they come up with solutions.
 
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