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Student gun control protest in Stockton turns violent, 5 arrested

OlNate said:
Yeah, I am. I mean, I think it's a ridiculous thing in most cases, just like I think driving a Hummer when you live in Manhattan is ridiculous. But that's none of my business.

If I thought banning guns would stop kids from getting killed in school, then I'd have a different tone. But it won't....and you can look through my posts pretty much everywhere on here and see why I think that way. I've shot AR-15's, and they are no scarier than any other rifle (which is still pretty scary, but let's not make false distinctions). And if you're hunting with them, then sure, you're not "sporting", but neither is killing a cow in a pen. Some folks don't care about "sporting", they just want to eat. Slingshot Bob did a great job of explaining this in another thread.

This is the problem right now. Both sides of the debate are throwing up knee jerk "solutions", none of which will work - I think banning guns and arming teachers are equally dumb assed, personally. The fact is that America, for better or worse, has 300 million + guns. You need to work together to best figure out how to ensure that as much can be done to live with that fact, since it's not going to go away by simply snapping your fingers and saying "Ban them". Ok, now what?

There are other ideas being presented, but the two loudest at the moment appear to be "arm the teachers" or "ban the guns", neither of which are intelligent, viable solutions.
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I agree somewhat.


I think fortified schools, with a mantrap entrance and and armed officer makes the most sense that would actually stop 90% of these.


I also think that if you are on psychoactive drugs whose side effects are "homicidal ideations" and "suicidal thoughts" you are at least temp banned from having any weapons.
 
OlNate said:
hehe...memes.

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Honestly, man, I think it's a recipe for disaster.

Amarillo man accidentally shot by police speaks out about the shooting | KVII

If the cops get it wrong, with all their training, how can you be sure the teachers won't? And if you aren't sure, is an environment filled with children the best place to test it out?
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OK, what is your more perfect plan? We seem to have few mass courthouse or state capital building shootings - perhaps those that are closer to being true peers of the lawmakers get the security resources that are being denied to mere teachers and students.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
If under attack by several rock throwing assailants then what, exactly, would you recommend? Can the typical victim be expected to 1) outrun them, 2) use their martial arts skills to render them harmless or 3) ask them to stop with firm verbal commands? I would say that #3 (backed up by showing them a gun?) might work best. Guns need not always be fired to act as an effective defense tool.
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See, I sensed no semi in that statement. That makes a ton of difference out of the gates.

Also, you're proposing a different scenario than in the OP. There was police presence, and they carry guns outside of the parameters of 2A, which they didn't need to use. When you have an epidemic of people getting stoned to death in the streets of America, we may have a different conversation. Until then, 5 kids throwing stones isn't a justification of 2A. I feel like we agree on that, though.

But ultimately you're talking to a guy who lives in a place where carrying a gun around to protect myself against kids throwing stones isn't an option, and I've managed to make it to the ripe old age of 40. And I'm good with that. We are still talking about kids, right? So, I'm not sure what the best solution would be in the event of having some stones thrown at you by a kid...I'm guessing it would change from circumstance to circumstance. But I think you'd have to go through a pretty good laundry list before landing at "shoot the mother****er!!!". That's all I'm saying...well, in addition to everything else...hehe...
 
ttwtt78640 said:
OK, what is your more perfect plan? We seem to have few mass courthouse or state capital building shootings - perhaps those that are closer to being true peers of the lawmakers get the security resources that are being denied to mere teachers and students.
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That's the whole point...if I were to offer a "perfect plan", it's pretty much guaranteed to be bull****. In order to get to the solution, you need to get to the root cause. In order to do that, everyone needs to simmer down long enough to do that work. Both sides of the debate need to be at the table, not with the sole purpose of shutting the other side down, but to reach a common understanding and a strategy that both sides will support. As the pro-gun folks so often point out, it's not the guns that are doing the killing, it's people. Why? How do you make them not want to pick up that gun to commit murder in the first place? What makes America so different from the rest of the world? What are both sides willing to do about it? What are both sides willing to sacrifice to slow down the rate of kids getting killed by guns. Or anything else.

So, I guess my "perfect plan" is: everyone simmer the **** down, grow the **** up, and handle this problem like it matters. Do the work. Don't let it be a partisan issue. Stop fighting amongst yourselves and show a little discipline. And care. Reject the instigators and the provocateurs.

That's the best I can offer right now...I promise, it will get a lot more accomplished than banning certain brands of guns, or strapped teachers...
 
OlNate said:
See, I sensed no semi in that statement. That makes a ton of difference out of the gates.

Also, you're proposing a different scenario than in the OP. There was police presence, and they carry guns outside of the parameters of 2A, which they didn't need to use. When you have an epidemic of people getting stoned to death in the streets of America, we may have a different conversation. Until then, 5 kids throwing stones isn't a justification of 2A. I feel like we agree on that, though.

But ultimately you're talking to a guy who lives in a place where carrying a gun around to protect myself against kids throwing stones isn't an option, and I've managed to make it to the ripe old age of 40. And I'm good with that. We are still talking about kids, right? So, I'm not sure what the best solution would be in the event of having some stones thrown at you by a kid...I'm guessing it would change from circumstance to circumstance. But I think you'd have to go through a pretty good laundry list before landing at "shoot the mother****er!!!". That's all I'm saying...well, in addition to everything else...hehe...
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I sensed no answer to the question posed in my post that you quoted.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
I agree somewhat.


I think fortified schools, with a mantrap entrance and and armed officer makes the most sense that would actually stop 90% of these.


I also think that if you are on psychoactive drugs whose side effects are "homicidal ideations" and "suicidal thoughts" you are at least temp banned from having any weapons.
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Ya, man, I can get behind that. I mean...it's sad, but it's dealing with reality in a way that makes sense. I still think it's a bandaid...I still think the root cause analysis would offer up solutions that have nothing to do with putting up walls, and a lot more to with tearing metaphorical ones down...but you're agreeing with me for the moment, so ... ;) I won't go off on that tangent. But these are certainly solutions that would make kids safer, unlike the other two I mentioned.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
I sensed no answer to the question posed in my post that you quoted.
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I'm not sure what the best solution would be in the event of having some stones thrown at you by a kid...I'm guessing it would change from circumstance to circumstance. But I think you'd have to go through a pretty good laundry list before landing at "shoot the mother****er!!!".
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Did I miss some other question?
 
OlNate said:
That's the whole point...if I were to offer a "perfect plan", it's pretty much guaranteed to be bull****. In order to get to the solution, you need to get to the root cause. In order to do that, everyone needs to simmer down long enough to do that work. Both sides of the debate need to be at the table, not with the sole purpose of shutting the other side down, but to reach a common understanding and a strategy that both sides will support. As the pro-gun folks so often point out, it's not the guns that are doing the killing, it's people. Why? How do you make them not want to pick up that gun to commit murder in the first place? What makes America so different from the rest of the world? What are both sides willing to do about it? What are both sides willing to sacrifice to slow down the rate of kids getting killed by guns. Or anything else.

So, I guess my "perfect plan" is: everyone simmer the **** down, grow the **** up, and handle this problem like it matters. Do the work. Don't let it be a partisan issue. Stop fighting amongst yourselves and show a little discipline. And care. Reject the instigators and the provocateurs.

That's the best I can offer right now...I promise, it will get a lot more accomplished than banning certain brands of guns, or strapped teachers...
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The "root cause" need not be addressed for any other criminal control or security system purposes - threats to public safety exist so they must be identified and dealt with. IMHO, the biggest "root cause" for the selection of schools as prime locations by mass shooters is the familiarity with the lack of adequate security (physical plant and personnel) and the abundance of densely packed and unarmed targets of opportunity.
 
OlNate said:
Did I miss some other question?
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Yep.

If under attack by several rock throwing assailants then what, exactly, would you recommend?
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I never said shoot them and saying what one should not do is nowhere near saying what one should do.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Yep.



I never said shoot them and saying what one should not do is nowhere near saying what one should do.
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If kids are getting shot in government schools, then why aren't we talking about banning government schools?

Nowhere in your role as a parent do you surrender your kid to the most unwholesome institutions the country has to offer as government schools with the possible exception of their prisons.

Like prisons, government schools take in all kinds of people that a sane parent would not allow their kid to associate with., This includes the staff as well as the inmates.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Yep.



I never said shoot them and saying what one should not do is nowhere near saying what one should do.
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I'm getting into trouble with you for referencing other parts of the thread posted by others. :) We need a code word. I don't really have that much of a problem with anything you're saying.

And I feel like I did answer your question. I don't know. I haven't gone through it. I know up here I'd have to figure it out with shooting at them not being an option. I'm a big guy, so if I couldn't find cover, and they seemed intent on actually killing me with these rocks, then I'd probably rush them. I get this wouldn't be an option for everyone. So, yeah, gotta stick with "I don't know". How big an issue is death by stoning in America?

But don't get me having an issue with being gleeful about the prospect ("Look at those kids, THIS is why we need 2A, hell yeah, and oops, I just nutted all over myself") confused with me being against self defense.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
The "root cause" need not be addressed for any other criminal control or security system purposes - threats to public safety exist so they must be identified and dealt with. IMHO, the biggest "root cause" for the selection of schools as prime locations by mass shooters is the familiarity with the lack of adequate security (physical plant and personnel) and the abundance of densely packed and unarmed targets of opportunity.
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Ok, so that's cool - why schools, sure, exactly what you say. But why mass shoot anything? I think that's the more important question, and a lot harder to answer. If you want to deal with these threats to public safety, wouldn't it be great to sort them out BEFORE there was a gun in their hands? You're not going to get them all, of course, there are nutters out there, and you can't always see them coming, which is why a combination of strategies will likely prove to be the final solution - all more to drive the point that simple, knee jerk responses aren't going to do anything more than make people feel good that "something is being done"....until the next killing.
 
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