Solution to Mass Shootings

The one thing I'll agree on is that the solutions are all going to be garbage. The reason I think this is that the root of the problem is actually very deep and insidious in our culture. It comes part and parcel with obsessive consumer capitalism and materialism; unattainable "American dreams" built upon predatory economic practices; and standards that are impossible to live up to. We are loaded with distractions and dangling carrots yet we are expected to suppress our essential selves in pursuit of we know not what. It's a culture that is excessively lavish yet self-repressed at the same time. Then you have a government (Federal and State) that turned their back on the mentally ill from the 90's onwards by closing all the advanced care facilities in favor of chemical straitjackets.

Yes, arming teachers, school security and even select students may be the only way, because we sure as hell are not going to overcome our collective denial about the rot that is at the heart of our culture. It's not liberals or conservatives either, it's the society as a whole. I'm not saying this to tear down America either; our ability is potentially awesome, but right now our reach exceeds our grasp. Other countries have toxic masculinity and social problems - they even have gun ownership - but people do not solve their problems with gun violence as much as we do. Why is that? I agree 100% that we should figure out why before we start arming more people. Yet we can't do the necessary government level research because the gun lobby feels too threatened.

We can't even have these conversations properly in most public forums because the polarized culture crisis prevents people from doing anything but superficially examining the problem. I admit that even I have succumbed to emotional reactions at times -- it just kills me to see children dying. However, we won't be able to have an honest discussion unless we can look inside ourselves and ask what it is we're really doing as country. What is our individual and collective purpose? What is the meaning of our life and what are we here to do? Is it just to tear each other down and climb over each other in pursuit of the top, or something else?

We have lost our way.

PleasantValley said:

May I offer a bit of prophecy?

I watched FOX and HLN on this, and came away with one major thought.
As separated in philosophy as these two are, there was a common thread that we have reached a point in this country that both side agree to do...SOMETHING.
Both sides agree, as do I, this can not and should not be the norm.

Going after guns will get no one anywhere. Nor should it.
So everyone needs to set their sights (pun intended) on the several reasons and causes of this uniquely American issue.
I will await and support any reasonable solution offered that does not trample on my rights from the "usual suspects".

...and i hope this does not delay delivery of my new DSA SA58 TAC Carbine I ordered last week.

Click to expand...

I own an original FN FAL (marked browning) , A springfield armory Clinton correct version made in SA and a DSA. the DSA is the same quality as the browning

Northern Light said:

The one thing I'll agree on is that the solutions are all going to be garbage. The reason I think this is that the root of the problem is actually very deep and insidious in our culture. It comes part and parcel with obsessive consumer capitalism and materialism; unattainable "American dreams" built upon predatory economic practices; and standards that are impossible to live up to. We are loaded with distractions and dangling carrots yet we are expected to suppress our essential selves in pursuit of we know not what. It's a culture that is excessively lavish yet self-repressed at the same time. Then you have a government (Federal and State) that turned their back on the mentally ill from the 90's onwards by closing all the advanced care facilities in favor of chemical straitjackets.

Yes, arming teachers, school security and even select students may be the only way, because we sure as hell are not going to overcome our collective denial about the rot that is at the heart of our culture. I'm not saying this to tear down America either; our potential is potentially awesome, but right now our reach exceeds our grasp.

We can't even have these conversations properly in most public forums because the polarized culture crisis prevents people from doing anything but superficially examining the problem. I admit that even I have succumbed to emotional reactions at times -- it just kills me to see children dying. However, we won't be able to have an honest discussion unless we can look inside ourselves and ask what it is we're really doing as country. What is our individual and collective purpose? What is the meaning of our life and what are we here to do? Is it just to tear each other down and climb over each other in pursuit of the top, or something else?

We have lost our way.

Click to expand...

You speak the uncomfortable truth. It needed to be said.
Just today I was accused of being a white supremacist, racist Nazi, stormfront member because i would not post a link they demanded I do.

Ever seen crabs in a bucket? One crab tries to climb out and the others drag it back down.
The result is you have a lot of angry crabs in a bucket.
The behavior of some on this forum is a reflection of what you just said so eloquently.

TurtleDude said:

no it isn't we have had that for years and its easy to enforce. I guess you are clueless about the fact that most gun crime is caused by those using pistols and all rifles-including the ones that scare you-are used in less murders than fists and feet.

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Fine, I don't dispute that fists & feet get used more often - but you'll be hard pressed to find where they set records in bodycounts. If someone shows up at a school with just their fists and feet looking for trouble, I doubt they'll be able to make the national headlines as compared if they showed up carrying an assault rifle.

BTW when you call something a semi auto assault rifle you prove you really don't have much understanding of the guns you talk about

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When you focus on nitpickery over semantics, instead of feeling concern about the risk to public safety from that general category of weapons, then you say something about yourself too.
I'd rather be accused of being ignorant about firearms technology (I'm an engineer, I waste my time on more useful technology) than be ignorant of basic civics. It's kind of like arguing against seat belt laws by accusing others of being ignorant of automotive mechanics - just mere sophistry.

TurtleDude said:

I own an original FN FAL (marked browning) , A springfield armory Clinton correct version made in SA and a DSA. the DSA is the same quality as the browning

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Someone that used to be on this forum let me shoot their full rifle version and i fell in love immediately.
Then i handled a carbine version and almost did not let them have their own property back.
Handled better than an AR, but can also turn cover into concealment.
It was not cheap, but I may just have a fire sale on most of the rest if this is as nice as that other one.

PleasantValley said:

You speak the uncomfortable truth. It needed to be said.
Just today I was accused of being a white supremacist, racist Nazi, stormfront member because i would not post a link they demanded I do.

Ever seen crabs in a bucket? One crab tries to climb out and the others drag it back down.
The result is you have a lot of angry crabs in a bucket.
The behavior of some on this forum is a reflection of what you just said so eloquently.

Click to expand...

The simplified answer is... if you look at other countries with a high gun per capita ratio, the reason why their murder rates are so low is because the common trust between people is higher. In other words they don't hate each other. They can have political disagreements and still be friends or at least exercise healthy tolerance. In the U.S. we are verging on blood feuds. People are literally willing to kill who they perceive to be their enemies, whether it's right vs. left, or children in school being bullied. They genuinely see no way out... maybe because critical thinking is becoming a thing of the past and people are being taught through social media to react to momentary emotions rather than trying to seek solutions.

It's like America has forgotten its own heart center. I mean, there has always been violence and some crazies but the scale we're dealing with now doesn't even compare. What must an individual be going through that they grab a gun and just start shooting? What imaginary walls are they trying to tear down? Who are they fighting against really?

If you learn about the history of the rise and fall of civilizations, we are in a really dangerous place right now -- not because of liberal or conservative policy but because the common trust is degrading and every day people are being vilified into monsters. This is the early warning sign of democratic decay every single time. We either reconcile it now or it will escalate to epic proportions, such that our own grotesque violence will become so bad that it will make us have to re-examine our philosophy for living. It's just sad that it may have to come to that point. Although, as the founding fathers and the French revolutionaries said, sometimes uprisings and mass violence refresh democracies and bring a great human secular existence. It just ends up being paid for in blood.

sanman said:

Fine, I don't dispute that fists & feet get used more often - but you'll be hard pressed to find where they set records in bodycounts. If someone shows up at a school with just their fists and feet looking for trouble, I doubt they'll be able to make the national headlines as compared if they showed up carrying an assault rifle.



When you focus on nitpickery over semantics, instead of feeling concern about the risk to public safety from that general category of weapons, then you say something about yourself too.
I'd rather be accused of being ignorant about firearms technology (I'm an engineer, I waste my time on more useful technology) than be ignorant of basic civics. It's kind of like arguing against seat belt laws by accusing others of being ignorant of automotive mechanics - just mere sophistry.

Click to expand...

you are not going to cover up your lack of knowledge and your lack of logic by trying to pretend that if we don't engage in your hysterical hyperventilating, we don't care. You want to infringe our rights-you better have a damn good argument for that and when its obvious you don't even understand what you claim you want, we reject your arguments. I want you to demonstrate your desired changes will do some objective good without violating the constitution.

I disagree with the notion that toxic masculinity is the cause behind school shootings.
A school shooting is just one more form of senseless gun violence, and all senseless gun violence is tied to a deterioration for respect and trust in civil institutions and decaying trust in national and local leadership.
In other words, society hates itself and its own institutions. (That also includes family, by the way. Family is a civil institution.)
And these shooters are merely the tip of the spear.

We are now almost to the point where every single white person in this country is six degrees of separation from one of these school shooters. When it hits four degrees of separation, the above theory will be undeniable.
We are already at the point where every black and hispanic person in the country is three to four degrees of separation from either a gang member or a victim of gang violence...maybe even two degrees in some cases.
That is why we know full well what the cause of gang violence is now.

TurtleDude said:

you are not going to cover up your lack of knowledge and your lack of logic by trying to pretend that if we don't engage in your hysterical hyperventilating, we don't care. You want to infringe our rights-you better have a damn good argument for that and when its obvious you don't even understand what you claim you want, we reject your arguments. I want you to demonstrate your desired changes will do some objective good without violating the constitution.

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By your logic, then why not legalize ownership over high explosives and all kinds of heavy ordinance? Why not legalize man-portable air defense missiles and anti-tank missiles too? Gee, they could be great collectors items, they could come in handy if there's ever a zombie apocalypse, or if Martians invade.

What I see here, is that despite all this "waiting for a good idea" mentality, the shooting massacres continue to go up and up. I guess it's not a serious enough problem as long as it's happening to somebody else.

sanman said:

Fine, I don't dispute that fists & feet get used more often - but you'll be hard pressed to find where they set records in bodycounts. If someone shows up at a school with just their fists and feet looking for trouble, I doubt they'll be able to make the national headlines as compared if they showed up carrying an assault rifle.



When you focus on nitpickery over semantics, instead of feeling concern about the risk to public safety from that general category of weapons, then you say something about yourself too.
I'd rather be accused of being ignorant about firearms technology (I'm an engineer, I waste my time on more useful technology) than be ignorant of basic civics. It's kind of like arguing against seat belt laws by accusing others of being ignorant of automotive mechanics - just mere sophistry.

Click to expand...

respectfully....very respectfully....I merely want to be civil and share some information with you so you will be more knowledgeable when discussing this subject.
You see, gun haters use incorrect terms all the time and most reasonable gun owners like me can tell immediately they are following a MSM agenda.
I can tell you are not. So please let me talk to your engineering mind of a brief moment.

An "assault rifle" like the AR-15 is select fire (fully & semi automatic) and fires an intermediate range round like the 5.56 NATO.
A MAIN BATTLE rifle may or may not be select fire and fires a full power rifle round like the 7.62 NATO (.308 Winchester).

Yes, a citizen can buy an assault rifle but it required lots of $$$$ and a special license called a Class 3.
Unless you have a rich uncle you can burn up $300 worth of ammo in 10 minutes firing full auto.
Personally, i would rather save up that $$$$ for when the cute red-head says YES, at the end of the bar.
Or buy my wife all the chocolate she wants. Same expense.

The usual AR-15 one sees in a gun store is semi-auto only, require no special Class 3 license, and just the usual local requirements to by ANY rifle.

Please understand, i only posted this so your advanced engineering mind can have something to regurgitate when discussing this subject.
Most gun haters do not have this knowledge.

sanman said:

By your logic, then why not legalize ownership over high explosives and all kinds of heavy ordinance? Why not legalize man-portable air defense missiles and anti-tank missiles too? Gee, they could be great collectors items, they could come in handy if there's ever a zombie apocalypse, or if Martians invade.

What I see here, is that despite all this "waiting for a good idea" mentality, the shooting massacres continue to go up and up. I guess it's not a serious enough problem as long as it's happening to somebody else.

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are police officers being issued those things.

why do you think people own guns?

the more you get schooled on this issue the more absurd your arguments get

what kind of weapons do you think honest americans should be able to own and what do you think teh second amendment protects?

TurtleDude said:

are police officers being issued those things.

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Oh, now I get it - it's just a matter of "keeping up with the Jones"
You just wanna have whatever the cops have. So if the cops get White Phosphorous bullets, then you want that too.

why do you think people own guns?

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Certainly not to settle highschool quarrels with - which is why teenagers don't need to qualify for them.

the more you get schooled on this issue the more absurd your arguments get

what kind of weapons do you think honest americans should be able to own and what do you think teh second amendment protects?

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Why see an assessment test as a barrier to honest people owning firearms? Does a pilot's license requirement pose an unreasonable restriction to legitimate people flying personal aircraft? Does a driver's license test post an unreasonable barrier against driving a car?

sanman said:

Oh, now I get it - it's just a matter of "keeping up with the Jones"
You just wanna have whatever the cops have. So if the cops get White Phosphorous bullets, then you want that too.




Certainly not to settle highschool quarrels with - which is why teenagers don't need to qualify for them.




Why see an assessment test as a barrier to honest people owning firearms? Does a pilot's license requirement pose an unreasonable restriction to legitimate people flying personal aircraft? Does a driver's license test post an unreasonable barrier against driving a car?

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more stupidity-why do cops carry firearms

answer (and I am an expert on this since I defended local and federal LEOs in use of force cases for 30 years in federal courts)

TO DEFEND THEMSELVES and members of the public from violent criminals

what type of firearms are cops issued

ANSWER-ones that were deemed most suitable (and sometimes economical) for self defense in an urban environment where the rules of engagement are based on a reasonable belief that the cop must shoot or else he or other innocents might be severely injured or slain

Why do PRIVATE CITIZENS OWN GUNS for self defense-for the same reason cops are issued them

so why would a private citizen not want the MOST SUITABLE FIREARM for self defense against violent criminals?

oh btw, private citizens often have far less advantages dealing with armed criminals than cops

Northern Light said:

The simplified answer is... if you look at other countries with a high gun per capita ratio, the reason why their murder rates are so low is because the common trust between people is higher. In other words they don't hate each other. They can have political disagreements and still be friends or at least exercise healthy tolerance. In the U.S. we are verging on blood feuds. People are literally willing to kill who they perceive to be their enemies, whether it's right vs. left, or children in school being bullied. They genuinely see no way out... maybe because critical thinking is becoming a thing of the past and people are being taught through social media to react to momentary emotions rather than trying to seek solutions.

It's like America has forgotten its own heart center. I mean, there has always been violence and some crazies but the scale we're dealing with now doesn't even compare. What must an individual be going through that they grab a gun and just start shooting? What imaginary walls are they trying to tear down? Who are they fighting against really?

If you learn about the history of the rise and fall of civilizations, we are in a really dangerous place right now -- not because of liberal or conservative policy but because the common trust is degrading and every day people are being vilified into monsters. This is the early warning sign of democratic decay every single time. We either reconcile it now or it will escalate to epic proportions, such that our own grotesque violence will become so bad that it will make us have to re-examine our philosophy for living. It's just sad that it may have to come to that point. Although, as the founding fathers and the French revolutionaries said, sometimes uprisings and mass violence refresh democracies and bring a great human secular existence. It just ends up being paid for in blood.

Click to expand...

I think you may have just made a prophesy.
Another poster here said i was a threat to her children because i voted for Trump. Now just how far removed from reality does one have to be to make a statement like that?
So now, in 2016, merely flipping the voting lever one way or another either makes you a threat to someone's children, or a general overall good guy. Nothing else.
Yes, it was on the internet, but those thoughts were in her heart.

If one day those thoughts jump off the internet and make it to the streets it will be a bloodbath.
"Haters gonna hate" does not even come close to some of the visceral venom I have seen on-line.
Let that venom spill out on America's streets and no one can blame anyone for keeping a case of ammo at home.
Their thoughts are completely insane and wild eyed.

Still, I think we are a long way from that at this point, but the seeds have already been planted and are growing.
"you disagree with me, then you are evil" !
Therefore justifying any other evil done to you.
This is how it starts, and it has already started.

TurtleDude said:

more stupidity-why do cops carry firearms

answer (and I am an expert on this since I defended local and federal LEOs in use of force cases for 30 years in federal courts)

TO DEFEND THEMSELVES and members of the public from violent criminals

Click to expand...

Yes, because it's their job - they're not doing it out of casual interest

what type of firearms are cops issued

ANSWER-ones that were deemed most suitable (and sometimes economical) for self defense in an urban environment where the rules of engagement are based on a reasonable belief that the cop must shoot or else he or other innocents might be severely injured or slain

Why do PRIVATE CITIZENS OWN GUNS for self defense-for the same reason cops are issued them

so why would a private citizen not want the MOST SUITABLE FIREARM for self defense against violent criminals?

oh btw, private citizens often have far less advantages dealing with armed criminals than cops

Click to expand...

So why does an age-limit of 21 constitute an unreasonable infringement?
Are you fearful of a rash of robberies against 18-year-olds?
Lots of bike thefts going to happen, because of an age limit of 21 on firearms ownership?

sanman said:

Yes, because it's their job - they're not doing it out of casual interest



So why does an age-limit of 21 constitute an unreasonable infringement?
Are you fearful of a rash of robberies against 18-year-olds?
Lots of bike thefts going to happen, because of an age limit of 21 on firearms ownership?

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you have to prove that raising the age limit is both constitutional and will have some value

right now all you have is speculation

I completely oppose the 21 year limit on anything. If you are old enough to serve and die you are old enough to be a complete adult. Don't like that-then raise the voting age, the age of contract and the draft age to 21. cannot have it both ways

and like most people who havent thought this through, you are merely reacting to this one case and ignore the fact that this wouldn't have stopped this killing or the other ones.

BTW people who are attacked by criminals have no choice. Cops do. You never addressed that point I made-I assume its because you cannot

Oh, let us kill another bird with this stone, I am enjoying it so much:

The police? Hire more of them, because we're cutting one shift a week from every uniformed policeman's duties to require them to take more range time. Plainclothes officers have a minimum requirement of ten hours per month and are encouraged-- as in "this will look good at promotion time"-- to put in more.

At the same range, at the same time, as the people in their jurisdiction.