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A high school teacher's thoughts on Florida shooting

BreadConqueror said:
People will continue to feel fear and anger. Even if we address many of the underlying issues, there will always be reforms necessary to preserve a functional society. Change is the only constant of life.

Guns provide a tool which allows those angry and fearful people to harm many more than they might have, without access to those weapons.

I am not advocating for a mass gun-grab. I'm advocating for sensible restrictions and licensing. I'm advocating for screening and training.

I'm advocating for cracking down on the gun manufacturers who exert so much influence on our democracy, much more influence than any given voter or even any given state.

We allow privately owned businesses more political power than entire states of the Union, that is not just an issue pertaining to gun manufacturers, but one which permeates our entire society.
Click to expand...

The Pittman-Robertson Act allocates money for training and the construction of shooting ranges, but I don't see that money being utilized effectively.
 
BreadConqueror said:
You haven't actually asked what my solutions are. I have many ideas I could share. They are highly detailed and nuanced, and address issues which may not seem related to this, but are all linked through the common thread of a dissatisfied populace struggling under a repressive and non-representative political structure.

But you never asked my solutions, you just per-emptively dismissed them. Which is not useful, and helps no one.
Click to expand...

Let's hear'em.
 
upsideguy said:
"...Ok, so let's reject every idea you don't agree with because it isn't 100% effective. That'll accomplish a lot.

I hope you don't wonder why nothing gets done on this issue..."



Show us all where you get this notion that it doesn't..... My guess its merely an unsubstantiated impression, which is likely wrong. Please show those of us that don't agree with you evidence that our impressions are wrong, OR accept the notion that you could be wrong.
Click to expand...

A gun free zone got lit up yesterday?

'We've seen the worst of humanity,' Florida school official says as 17 killed in campus shooting

Most mass shootings take place in gun free zones?

In Aurora, Colorado, it's illegal to carry in public. James holmes shot up a picture show, killing 12 and wounded 70.

Would you like to talk about how well gun control works in Mexico?
 
BreadConqueror said:
People will continue to feel fear and anger..
.
Click to expand...

I cannot agree with that. We have a society that glorifies bullying. Our digital culture isolates and distances people from society. We teach our children it is cool to not care. Our children has excessive access to radical messages and far too often parents are providing food and shelter and not much more. We are undisciplined. The values of the American family are non existent.

Guns provide a tool which allows those angry and fearful people to harm many more than they might have, without access to those weapons.
Click to expand...

"A tool". yes. The only tool? Not by any stretch. You cannot fix this by restricting gun access. Illegal guns are easily obtained for one. And if someone is about to mass murder I don't think the 30 days in jail and the fine for owning a gun illegally is much of a concern.

I'm advocating for cracking down on the gun manufacturers who exert so much influence on our democracy, much more influence than any given voter or even any given state.

We allow privately owned businesses more political power than entire states of the Union, that is not just an issue pertaining to gun manufacturers, but one which permeates our entire society.
Click to expand...

Different discussion.
 
<alt>doxygen said:
You are most likely wrong. Not all speech is protected.

You already can't scream fire in a theatre.
Click to expand...

You're not muzzled prior to entering a theatre to insure that you don't speak inappropriately.
 
apdst said:
Let's hear'em.
Click to expand...

That will require far more than a single post. And far longer than the few minutes left on my lunch break.

My suggestions for restructuring society and re-establishing democracy in our kleptocratic system will be presented over the course of my time here on DP, but they will address many of the deeper issues facing the United States, such as economic uncertainty, cultural isolation and social services. But these issues being addressed would greatly help reduce feelings of rage and fear among many. This would be an essential aspect of any comprehensive solution.

As for specific laws and practices regarding guns, I will share some of what I posted elsewhere for the sake of time.

We outlaw non-hunting long rifles and large capacity magazines. There should be few on the market. These are not useful for hunters, and should be illegal for hunting anyway. If you need 30 rounds to bag a buck, you suck at shooting and should give up.
Long-rifles should require hunting licenses or rifle permits.
Universal background checks, nation-wide, no matter the venue of sale.
Mental health screening before gun purchases, and after any domestic issues arise.
National gun registration, this would go hand-in-hand with licensing, so it's a bit redundant. I added it for clarity.
Limits on ammunition purchases. Again, you don't need an arsenal to kill a deer. If you do, you should give it up.
Students who are expelled from high schools for behavior reasons should not be allowed to have legal weapons until they pass an additional screening. I'm open to discussion as to what kind of screening.
Parents of students who are expelled for behavior reasons must surrender their weapons as well. If they want to keep their guns, they keep their kids in order. This addresses, in a reactionary way, some of the social implications and causes. Adam Lanza's family would have had to give up their guns prior to the shooting.
Limit the distribution and manufacture of non-hunting, non-defense weapons. Meaning long-rifles. Pistols I understand, even if I don't use them, as they are decent for conceal and carry. Long rifles are useless for it. Shotguns are the best weapon for home defense, and I use one for that purpose. Never had to break it out, but I have it, and it's ready if we need it.
Aggressively address mental health warning signs with treatment options, and prevent individuals with a history of violence (even juvenile violence) from purchasing weapons until they pass an additional behavior and mental health screening.

Anyone found to be using a weapon inappropriately, (i.e. shooting irresponsibly, poaching, shooting where illegal etc.) loses all gun ownership rights indefinitely. This is a zero tolerance issue for me.

I've always been a responsible owner, others should hold themselves to the same standard.

Fewer guns certainly won't mean more deaths.

I will return later today when I have time, but I have 4 classes to teach!
 
BreadConqueror said:
I am a high school teacher living and working in Louisiana.

I am a southern born conservative, who years ago rejected party politics. I am not a partisan, and I have no political loyalties.

My father was an NRA member for decades, but after Sandy Hook, when I was first beginning to teach, he told me he could no longer give money to an organization which refused to address this real issue.

My father is one of the most conservative people I personally know. He and I argue constantly about taxation, spending, militarism, etc., yet on this issue, we are in agreement.

The NRA is not a force protecting gun rights. It is an organization which shields manufacturers and distributors, not owners.

We have a crisis in this nation, born of desperation and hateful rhetoric. This is the same cause for the rise of fascism and Trump. The same cause for the perpetuation of our historically inherited sectarian struggles.

Our schools are highly organized, structured and rigid. They are designed and scheduled with this concern in mind, that at any time, some crazed or distraught individual could harm dozens of our children on a whim. Because they certainly will have access to the tools to make that easy.

A crazed teen with a knife is much less dangerous than one with a long-rifle.

I am southern, I hunt, (especially ducks), I fish, (brim and perch are delicious!), i own guns. I advocate for responsible gun laws.

I would voluntarily register my weapons. I would submit to mental health screening. I would apply for licenses for those firearms were they mandated.

I am an anarchist. I believe in resistance to illegitimate authority. I believe violence is sometimes necessary and appropriate to preserve liberty.

Why is it so difficult for gun-rights advocates to give some ground on this issue? Innocent children are dead, again. Dozens have been killed this year alone.

This is not an issue isolated to firearm availability. That is only one VERY LARGE aspect of this issue.

This is an issue of mental health, and the causes for distress among Americans. The causes are clear. Economic anxiety, a fear-culture propagated by the media and state for the purpose of control, segmentation of society and communities along arbitrary grounds, xenophobia and isolationist culture, interpersonal politics, the structure of the classroom-to-retail education for the lucky, the classroom-to-prison pipeline for the unlucky.

This is a cultural issue, and a large part of that culture is born of this refusal to even address, discuss and consider legislative solutions and voluntary sacrifices to make the nation a safer, healthier place.

I would give up every gun I had, every future morning on the lake or in the woods, if it meant one of these 17 kids would still be alive today.

I'll cut this short, because it's hard to write without thinking about my kids and my students and what it would feel like to have this happen where I teach.
Click to expand...

so you want all the law abiding citizens like yourself and me to register their weapons, and to give the government a list of who owns what and where

do i have that correct?

okay...no problem...i will do so the day you can figure out how to find and register the other 100 million guns NOT held by law abiding citizens like ourselves...that are in the hands of thugs, criminals, and gangs

give me your solution to THAT and we can talk...about my couple of weapons
 
BreadConqueror said:
That will require far more than a single post. And far longer than the few minutes left on my lunch break.

My suggestions for restructuring society and re-establishing democracy in our kleptocratic system will be presented over the course of my time here on DP, but they will address many of the deeper issues facing the United States, such as economic uncertainty, cultural isolation and social services. But these issues being addressed would greatly help reduce feelings of rage and fear among many. This would be an essential aspect of any comprehensive solution.

As for specific laws and practices regarding guns, I will share some of what I posted elsewhere for the sake of time.

We outlaw non-hunting long rifles and large capacity magazines. There should be few on the market. These are not useful for hunters, and should be illegal for hunting anyway. If you need 30 rounds to bag a buck, you suck at shooting and should give up.
Long-rifles should require hunting licenses or rifle permits.
Universal background checks, nation-wide, no matter the venue of sale.
Mental health screening before gun purchases, and after any domestic issues arise.
National gun registration, this would go hand-in-hand with licensing, so it's a bit redundant. I added it for clarity.
Limits on ammunition purchases. Again, you don't need an arsenal to kill a deer. If you do, you should give it up.
Students who are expelled from high schools for behavior reasons should not be allowed to have legal weapons until they pass an additional screening. I'm open to discussion as to what kind of screening.
Parents of students who are expelled for behavior reasons must surrender their weapons as well. If they want to keep their guns, they keep their kids in order. This addresses, in a reactionary way, some of the social implications and causes. Adam Lanza's family would have had to give up their guns prior to the shooting.
Limit the distribution and manufacture of non-hunting, non-defense weapons. Meaning long-rifles. Pistols I understand, even if I don't use them, as they are decent for conceal and carry. Long rifles are useless for it. Shotguns are the best weapon for home defense, and I use one for that purpose. Never had to break it out, but I have it, and it's ready if we need it.
Aggressively address mental health warning signs with treatment options, and prevent individuals with a history of violence (even juvenile violence) from purchasing weapons until they pass an additional behavior and mental health screening.

Anyone found to be using a weapon inappropriately, (i.e. shooting irresponsibly, poaching, shooting where illegal etc.) loses all gun ownership rights indefinitely. This is a zero tolerance issue for me.

I've always been a responsible owner, others should hold themselves to the same standard.

Fewer guns certainly won't mean more deaths.

I will return later today when I have time, but I have 4 classes to teach!
Click to expand...

You just confirmed what I said...

apdst said:
You haven't presented a sensible path toward a solution. I've only seen you recommend mental heath screening (that can be abused and deny citizens of their civil rights) and banning gun ownership.
Click to expand...

Parents of students who are expelled for behavior reasons must surrender their weapons as well.
Click to expand...

That's the most rediculous and unconstitutional thing I've ever heard.

You proved that you can't present a "sensible path toward a solution".
 
BreadConqueror said:
I am a high school teacher living and working in Louisiana.

I am a southern born conservative, who years ago rejected party politics. I am not a partisan, and I have no political loyalties.

My father was an NRA member for decades, but after Sandy Hook, when I was first beginning to teach, he told me he could no longer give money to an organization which refused to address this real issue.

My father is one of the most conservative people I personally know. He and I argue constantly about taxation, spending, militarism, etc., yet on this issue, we are in agreement.

The NRA is not a force protecting gun rights. It is an organization which shields manufacturers and distributors, not owners.

We have a crisis in this nation, born of desperation and hateful rhetoric. This is the same cause for the rise of fascism and Trump. The same cause for the perpetuation of our historically inherited sectarian struggles.

Our schools are highly organized, structured and rigid. They are designed and scheduled with this concern in mind, that at any time, some crazed or distraught individual could harm dozens of our children on a whim. Because they certainly will have access to the tools to make that easy.

A crazed teen with a knife is much less dangerous than one with a long-rifle.

I am southern, I hunt, (especially ducks), I fish, (brim and perch are delicious!), i own guns. I advocate for responsible gun laws.

I would voluntarily register my weapons. I would submit to mental health screening. I would apply for licenses for those firearms were they mandated.

I am an anarchist. I believe in resistance to illegitimate authority. I believe violence is sometimes necessary and appropriate to preserve liberty.

Why is it so difficult for gun-rights advocates to give some ground on this issue? Innocent children are dead, again. Dozens have been killed this year alone.

This is not an issue isolated to firearm availability. That is only one VERY LARGE aspect of this issue.

This is an issue of mental health, and the causes for distress among Americans. The causes are clear. Economic anxiety, a fear-culture propagated by the media and state for the purpose of control, segmentation of society and communities along arbitrary grounds, xenophobia and isolationist culture, interpersonal politics, the structure of the classroom-to-retail education for the lucky, the classroom-to-prison pipeline for the unlucky.

This is a cultural issue, and a large part of that culture is born of this refusal to even address, discuss and consider legislative solutions and voluntary sacrifices to make the nation a safer, healthier place.

I would give up every gun I had, every future morning on the lake or in the woods, if it meant one of these 17 kids would still be alive today.

I'll cut this short, because it's hard to write without thinking about my kids and my students and what it would feel like to have this happen where I teach.
Click to expand...

sorry but guns are not the problem; people are the problem ..........
 
It turns out The Liberty Tree is Audrey.
 
BreadConqueror said:
I am a high school teacher living and working in Louisiana.

I am a southern born conservative, who years ago rejected party politics. I am not a partisan, and I have no political loyalties.

My father was an NRA member for decades, but after Sandy Hook, when I was first beginning to teach, he told me he could no longer give money to an organization which refused to address this real issue.

My father is one of the most conservative people I personally know. He and I argue constantly about taxation, spending, militarism, etc., yet on this issue, we are in agreement.

The NRA is not a force protecting gun rights. It is an organization which shields manufacturers and distributors, not owners.

We have a crisis in this nation, born of desperation and hateful rhetoric. This is the same cause for the rise of fascism and Trump. The same cause for the perpetuation of our historically inherited sectarian struggles.

Our schools are highly organized, structured and rigid. They are designed and scheduled with this concern in mind, that at any time, some crazed or distraught individual could harm dozens of our children on a whim. Because they certainly will have access to the tools to make that easy.

A crazed teen with a knife is much less dangerous than one with a long-rifle.

I am southern, I hunt, (especially ducks), I fish, (brim and perch are delicious!), i own guns. I advocate for responsible gun laws.

I would voluntarily register my weapons. I would submit to mental health screening. I would apply for licenses for those firearms were they mandated.

I am an anarchist. I believe in resistance to illegitimate authority. I believe violence is sometimes necessary and appropriate to preserve liberty.

Why is it so difficult for gun-rights advocates to give some ground on this issue? Innocent children are dead, again. Dozens have been killed this year alone.

This is not an issue isolated to firearm availability. That is only one VERY LARGE aspect of this issue.

This is an issue of mental health, and the causes for distress among Americans. The causes are clear. Economic anxiety, a fear-culture propagated by the media and state for the purpose of control, segmentation of society and communities along arbitrary grounds, xenophobia and isolationist culture, interpersonal politics, the structure of the classroom-to-retail education for the lucky, the classroom-to-prison pipeline for the unlucky.

This is a cultural issue, and a large part of that culture is born of this refusal to even address, discuss and consider legislative solutions and voluntary sacrifices to make the nation a safer, healthier place.

I would give up every gun I had, every future morning on the lake or in the woods, if it meant one of these 17 kids would still be alive today.

I'll cut this short, because it's hard to write without thinking about my kids and my students and what it would feel like to have this happen where I teach.
Click to expand...

We live in a "Don't get mad -- get even" world. Shootings like the one in Florida are an attempt (by a disgruntled individual who can't control his impulses) to right whatever wrongs he perceives have been done to him.

Since so many of these occur in public schools, the question we should be asking is what is happening in the school system to allow these disgruntled feelings to become overwhelming to the point that the person wants to kill others. How can parents, teachers and administrators keep some kids from feeling as though they're less valuable than other kids in school? Could they focus more on academics, which is why the kids are there to begin with, and drop all the social stuff such as dances, proms and celebrations of "school spirit" that only recognize a few kids? Could they switch to dress codes that didn't leave some kids feeling as they don't measure up to the fashion of others?

The mental health of the shooter is obviously at issue, but what triggered him? Would less sensationalist coverage of shootings reduce copy-cat shootings? Too many of these shootings are happening in public schools for us to keep pretending that the schools aren't part of the problem.
 
RF667799 said:
You're not muzzled prior to entering a theatre to insure that you don't speak inappropriately.
Click to expand...

No, and no one would be prevented from posting psycho stuff on social media, either. You scream "fire" in a theatre, you get kicked out. Make youtube videos like that guy is purported to have made, you lose your guns and your ability to legally buy more of them.
 
HowardBThiname said:
We live in a "Don't get mad -- get even" world. Shootings like the one in Florida are an attempt (by a disgruntled individual who can't control his impulses) to right whatever wrongs he perceives have been done to him.

Since so many of these occur in public schools, the question we should be asking is what is happening in the school system to allow these disgruntled feelings to become overwhelming to the point that the person wants to kill others. How can parents, teachers and administrators keep some kids from feeling as though they're less valuable than other kids in school? Could they focus more on academics, which is why the kids are there to begin with, and drop all the social stuff such as dances, proms and celebrations of "school spirit" that only recognize a few kids? Could they switch to dress codes that didn't leave some kids feeling as they don't measure up to the fashion of others?

The mental health of the shooter is obviously at issue, but what triggered him? Would less sensationalist coverage of shootings reduce copy-cat shootings? Too many of these shootings are happening in public schools for us to keep pretending that the schools aren't part of the problem.
Click to expand...

It is not just the school system.

While my kids are finishing their writing assignment, I wanted to weigh in on this.

The school system is structured according to the priorities and values of society.

This is an issue our entire society must address. We can't just say it's a simple fix of mental health and school structure. This is a social values issue.

You seem to be suggesting that schools should be a joyless experience with no social aspect. That would be impossible, and would only lead to children lashing out against something perceived as it were designed to make them suffer.

And the last statement dismisses the dozens of mass shootings which have not occurred in schools. This is not a school issue.

Additionally, you suggest we should not cover shootings? That we should engage in a willing ignorance and repression?

Schools aren't part of the problem. Schools are part of society and the structure and values of our society are the problem.

Why should we blame schools, but not guns? There is no one-size-fits-all solution. We can't be reductive about this.
 
gdgyva said:
so you want all the law abiding citizens like yourself and me to register their weapons, and to give the government a list of who owns what and where

do i have that correct?

okay...no problem...i will do so the day you can figure out how to find and register the other 100 million guns NOT held by law abiding citizens like ourselves...that are in the hands of thugs, criminals, and gangs

give me your solution to THAT and we can talk...about my couple of weapons
Click to expand...

Yes. Yes I do. Because I know that if our nation is to become inwardly authoritarian to the point where they are seizing guns, we have greater issues than gun violence to deal with. We would have a failed state.

That is not an argument to refuse common sense reforms.

And my solution to that is simple - If someone is found in possession of an unregistered weapon, it is confiscated and they are charged. We can identify criminals immediately by their possession of illegal weapons. We can prevent crime by identifying those who have not legally obtained weapons, then remove those weapons from circulation.

Your argument is akin to saying "I'm not going to support a law against murder unless you can convince me all of the future murders won't murder."
 
ttwtt78640 said:
That (bolded above) appears to be a new legal term that requires a bit more precise definition.
Click to expand...

It's not a legal term. To paraphrase Robert Bork when he was appearing before congress discussing censoring porn, "I know it when I see it."

LOL.

Obviously this would require our illustrious representatives to concoct a legal definition.

I threw the concept out for discussion purposes only. Nothing will be done, but I'm interested in ways to work on the issue while minimizing any infringement of the rights of responsible adults, anyway.
 
BreadConqueror said:
It is not just the school system.

While my kids are finishing their writing assignment, I wanted to weigh in on this.

The school system is structured according to the priorities and values of society.

This is an issue our entire society must address. We can't just say it's a simple fix of mental health and school structure. This is a social values issue.

You seem to be suggesting that schools should be a joyless experience with no social aspect. That would be impossible, and would only lead to children lashing out against something perceived as it were designed to make them suffer.

And the last statement dismisses the dozens of mass shootings which have not occurred in schools. This is not a school issue.

Additionally, you suggest we should not cover shootings? That we should engage in a willing ignorance and repression?

Schools aren't part of the problem. Schools are part of society and the structure and values of our society are the problem.

Why should we blame schools, but not guns? There is no one-size-fits-all solution. We can't be reductive about this.
Click to expand...

I'm of the mind that public schools are a large part of the problem, because, while they have anti-bullying provisions in place, public school, itself, is bullying to all but the prettiest and the most athletic.

There's no reason whatsoever for social interaction in a school setting, just as there is no justification for a PE teacher to allow kids to pick team members, which leaves the same few kids last to be picked every time. Prom? It serves no purpose, except to tell kids it's fun to dress up and have sex. Can't they figure that out on their own? And what of the kids that don't get a date to prom? I wonder if this latest shooter had a date to prom?

And what is with the worship of athletes? It's a throwback to when we used to watch gladiators fight to the death and cheer when heads would roll. We tell them to be better sports now, but have you noticed how the parents behave? Crazy. And, not appropriate in a public school setting.

Of course we're seeing shootings in other places, and the causes of those are generally pretty easy to determine - a Muslim hates gays so he shoots nearly 50. Racist hates blacks so he shoots up a church service. We can determine what triggered those shootings.

But, way too many shootings are taking place in public schools and something is going to have to be done. There's no reasonable way to register all guns and remove them from society without punishing the vast majority of innocent gun owners, so the other option is to clean up the problems in the school systems that are creating social castes and triggering at-risk students.

Yes, school should be for learning and learning only. Remove competitive sports and the fluff that make up a good deal of the school day and you'll reduce the impact of the social castes.

I don't care if the school day is less fun. Think back to kids a hundred years ago, they understood that it was a privilege just to get an education when so many others could not. Of course it wasn't fun to have a teacher smack your knuckles with a ruler or haul you out behind the woodshed. But, kids understood what education and school were all about then.

The kids that are dropping out of school these days are not the popular kids; they're the marginalized kids. And, that should tell you something.
 
BreadConqueror said:
I am a high school teacher living and working in Louisiana.

I am a southern born conservative, who years ago rejected party politics. I am not a partisan, and I have no political loyalties.

My father was an NRA member for decades, but after Sandy Hook, when I was first beginning to teach, he told me he could no longer give money to an organization which refused to address this real issue.

My father is one of the most conservative people I personally know. He and I argue constantly about taxation, spending, militarism, etc., yet on this issue, we are in agreement.

The NRA is not a force protecting gun rights. It is an organization which shields manufacturers and distributors, not owners.

We have a crisis in this nation, born of desperation and hateful rhetoric. This is the same cause for the rise of fascism and Trump. The same cause for the perpetuation of our historically inherited sectarian struggles.

Our schools are highly organized, structured and rigid. They are designed and scheduled with this concern in mind, that at any time, some crazed or distraught individual could harm dozens of our children on a whim. Because they certainly will have access to the tools to make that easy.

A crazed teen with a knife is much less dangerous than one with a long-rifle.

I am southern, I hunt, (especially ducks), I fish, (brim and perch are delicious!), i own guns. I advocate for responsible gun laws.

I would voluntarily register my weapons. I would submit to mental health screening. I would apply for licenses for those firearms were they mandated.

I am an anarchist. I believe in resistance to illegitimate authority. I believe violence is sometimes necessary and appropriate to preserve liberty.

Why is it so difficult for gun-rights advocates to give some ground on this issue? Innocent children are dead, again. Dozens have been killed this year alone.

This is not an issue isolated to firearm availability. That is only one VERY LARGE aspect of this issue.

This is an issue of mental health, and the causes for distress among Americans. The causes are clear. Economic anxiety, a fear-culture propagated by the media and state for the purpose of control, segmentation of society and communities along arbitrary grounds, xenophobia and isolationist culture, interpersonal politics, the structure of the classroom-to-retail education for the lucky, the classroom-to-prison pipeline for the unlucky.

This is a cultural issue, and a large part of that culture is born of this refusal to even address, discuss and consider legislative solutions and voluntary sacrifices to make the nation a safer, healthier place.

I would give up every gun I had, every future morning on the lake or in the woods, if it meant one of these 17 kids would still be alive today.

I'll cut this short, because it's hard to write without thinking about my kids and my students and what it would feel like to have this happen where I teach.
Click to expand...

Oh good another thread by a 2nd amendment opponent. If I had a dollar for every time some 2nd amendment opponent posted your garbage then I would be rich. Lets see it has the following usual garbage-

- hate the NRA for standing in the way of scum who wish to infringe on the 2nd amendment.
- the false claim of NRA as being gun manufacturer lobbyist.
- lets turn constitutional rights into state granted privilege.
- register firearms so that it is easier for the government to confiscate them.
- ban 10 to 30 round standard capacity under the guise of high capacity magazine bans.
- make it harder and more costly for average citizens to be able to exercise their 2nd amendment.
- ban semiautomatic firearms under the guise of an assault weapons ban.
- claim they own guns, were conservative, or were a NRA member as though that somehow gives them credibility for ****ting on the 2nd amendment.
- the false claim of you don't need that many rounds to go hunting or defend yourself.
- the false claim that somehow all that **** is somehow reasonable.


As another poster stated :the reason 2nd amendment proponents refuse to give up ground is because we already given up enough ground already. All the anti-2nd amendment laws currently on the books right now at the federal and state level didn't just happen over night. Anyone who actually supports the 2nd amendment would have to be a ****en moron to support your solutions.
 
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<alt>doxygen said:
It's not a legal term. To paraphrase Robert Bork when he was appearing before congress discussing censoring porn, "I know it when I see it."

LOL.

Obviously this would require our illustrious representatives to concoct a legal definition.

I threw the concept out for discussion purposes only. Nothing will be done, but I'm interested in ways to work on the issue while minimizing any infringement of the rights of responsible adults, anyway.
Click to expand...

It seems that the "knowing" typically follows the (mass) shooting. Obviously, that does no good as a preventive measure. What seems to be avoided is who, exactly, did all of this "knowing" (of a specific impending crime?) and decided not to report it.

Unlike most school (mass?) shooters this moron has taken care to survive it - that alone makes him far different from most.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
It seems that the "knowing" typically follows the (mass) shooting. Obviously, that does no good as a preventive measure. What seems to be avoided is who, exactly, did all of this "knowing" (of a specific impending crime?) and decided not to report it.

Unlike most school (mass?) shooters this moron has taken care to survive it - that alone makes him far different from most.
Click to expand...

Which blows away the "just apply the death penalty" idea.

Most of these types seem to want to go out in a blaze of imagined glory. Maybe this loon wanted to hear the final body count or something, but I have a feeling that FL will fry him eventually.
 
BreadConqueror said:
I am a high school teacher living and working in Louisiana.

I am a southern born conservative, who years ago rejected party politics. I am not a partisan, and I have no political loyalties.

My father was an NRA member for decades, but after Sandy Hook, when I was first beginning to teach, he told me he could no longer give money to an organization which refused to address this real issue.

My father is one of the most conservative people I personally know. He and I argue constantly about taxation, spending, militarism, etc., yet on this issue, we are in agreement.

The NRA is not a force protecting gun rights. It is an organization which shields manufacturers and distributors, not owners.

We have a crisis in this nation, born of desperation and hateful rhetoric. This is the same cause for the rise of fascism and Trump. The same cause for the perpetuation of our historically inherited sectarian struggles.

Our schools are highly organized, structured and rigid. They are designed and scheduled with this concern in mind, that at any time, some crazed or distraught individual could harm dozens of our children on a whim. Because they certainly will have access to the tools to make that easy.

A crazed teen with a knife is much less dangerous than one with a long-rifle.

I am southern, I hunt, (especially ducks), I fish, (brim and perch are delicious!), i own guns. I advocate for responsible gun laws.

I would voluntarily register my weapons. I would submit to mental health screening. I would apply for licenses for those firearms were they mandated.

I am an anarchist. I believe in resistance to illegitimate authority. I believe violence is sometimes necessary and appropriate to preserve liberty.

Why is it so difficult for gun-rights advocates to give some ground on this issue? Innocent children are dead, again. Dozens have been killed this year alone.

This is not an issue isolated to firearm availability. That is only one VERY LARGE aspect of this issue.

This is an issue of mental health, and the causes for distress among Americans. The causes are clear. Economic anxiety, a fear-culture propagated by the media and state for the purpose of control, segmentation of society and communities along arbitrary grounds, xenophobia and isolationist culture, interpersonal politics, the structure of the classroom-to-retail education for the lucky, the classroom-to-prison pipeline for the unlucky.

This is a cultural issue, and a large part of that culture is born of this refusal to even address, discuss and consider legislative solutions and voluntary sacrifices to make the nation a safer, healthier place.

I would give up every gun I had, every future morning on the lake or in the woods, if it meant one of these 17 kids would still be alive today.

I'll cut this short, because it's hard to write without thinking about my kids and my students and what it would feel like to have this happen where I teach.
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an anarchist who would readily register guns

LOL

why don't you tell us what laws would stop this. Why should the NRA compromise when gun banners never do? why do you think the rights of honest people are hostage to what nut cases perpetrate?
 
jaeger19 said:
the idea that firearms are the problem is an absurd idea and needs to be consistently refuted.

Particularly when it comes to mental health.
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the big problem to them is the voting power of gun owners who retaliated against politicians who tried to pretend they were doing something about crime by passing feel good laws that harass honest gun owners
 
apdst said:
The death penalty is used enough. That's why we don't see the positive effect.

James Holmes, the Aurora, Colorado shooter, got life plus 3,000 years.

Jared Loughner got 7 life sentences

It isn't just about mass shootings. It's about all gun murders.
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Are you saying that if those 3 you listed had been killed by the state something would have been prevented? Most of these people kill themselves before they are apprehended. I can easily name 3 that were executed or will be. Start with Roof and John Allen Muhammad. Most kill themselves as a final act.
 
upsideguy said:
That is a nice, well-out, complete answer. Thank you for your contribution.

Meanwhile, I will repost what I wrote on another thread.....

At least 35 additional casualties (at least 17 dead and 18 wounded) in the struggle to maintain unfettered gun rights.

Unfortunately, these "soldiers" did not sign up for this struggle. Some more "hopes, prayers, moments of silence" and other shallow responses.... sweep this under the rug like all the others and move on. The inconvenient truth is guns are machines of killing. They need some level of regulation greater than we have now.

Oh, but if someone of arab descent were behind this.... travel bans and immigration restrictions would be the response. We are still far, far, far more likely to die violent at the hands of a American with a gun than an Arab with any other type of weapon.

Las Vegas shooting adds to sobering US gun violence statistics - BI
CAUSES OF DEATH: How much terrorism threatens American lives - BI

When will our congress actually tackle the real issues of America?

Let the usual suspects stand in outrage at these comments. But let them also explain why this continues to go completely unchecked...and why this is the 19th school shooting of 2018. Sorry, but each needless random shooting will be called out, with the NRA, who almost single-handedly has stymied congress * from reasonable action, in the cross-hairs of blame.

There have already been 18 school shootings in the US this year - ABC News

Shame on all of us that have not pressured our congress to make changes, shame on the NRA for being irresponsible advocates of gun ownership and safety, shame on the NRA members for not holding that organization more accountable. We (and the NRA and its members) all have additional blood on their hands.

* - though our ***** leaders in Washington ultimately at fault. It is their job to tell the NRA to go ..... whatever.


Sorry, but guns are tools of death. They are in the wrong hands. They are part of the problem. A hard, honest look at guns is part of the answer.....

"guns are not the answer" is a major part of the problem. Those that have this attitude have blood on their hands.
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more blame the NRA nonsense; those who are upset with the Trump win are hateful towards the NRA. They know the NRA isn't at fault anymore than the ACLU is promoting child molestors. But they will use any shooting tragedy to vent their loathing of the NRA and the politicians the NRA supports. That's why most of us gun owners summarily reject the idiotic calls for more laws that are designed to harass lawful gun ownership.
 
<alt>doxygen said:
Which blows away the "just apply the death penalty" idea.

Most of these types seem to want to go out in a blaze of imagined glory. Maybe this loon wanted to hear the final body count or something, but I have a feeling that FL will fry him eventually.
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It opens up the "what were the root causes?" idea for sure. I seriously doubt that acquiring guns or ammo legally was a key element to this loon's master plan.
 
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