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Mass shootings: Why we should stop talking guns

TurtleDude said:
that's a really specious claim. people with those bumper stickers aren't the ones causing gun crime
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I doubt if they're the victims of carjackings either.
 
MSgt said:
Well, baseball bats are toys and sometimes used as weapons. Guns are weapons, viewed as toys. So...
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In a sense, my guns are exactly like baseball bats. Generally and most often they are recreational items. Used for target shooting and hunting. Sometimes just hung on the wall. But when the need arises, they can instantly be turned into self protection weapons.
 
blackjack50 said:
We are pampered privileged brats? Yea. We are. We actually respect rights and our government has generally done so regardless of the bleeding hearts who would prefer to TAKE rights than ask for more. These “other nations” don’t have things like 4th amendment protections or free speech or free press.

I just talked to a local sub shop owner whose businsss was broken into 3 Times. Once the person used a hammer while his wife was there. This little Vietnamese man now keeps a .357 on him. Yea. We don’t need to worry about foreign invaders much. But there are still dirt bag tyrants and thugs that aren’t part of some military. They are street thugs who want what others work for. And we shouldn’t be caving to them because of the “understanding” of some loser bleeding heart who thinks that person has a right to a safe “working environment.”

As the OP suggests...we don’t need gun control. We need people control. Specifically for these scumbags who pistol whip parents in front of their kids for a thing of cigars.
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It's a pretty story. Now, come down from behind the Conservative "not my guns!" pulpit and recognize what I wrote. I stated nothing about needing new laws or taking your toys away from you.

As I have argued for years, it is about people control. And those other countries who share many of our gun laws do not share our mass killing culture. Therefore, pretending that it is only about an individual is obtuse.

blackjack50 said:
I guess you are new here. If you want to make a generalized point (do I need to point out why that is silly)...the write shorter sentences or summarize your post. That is called a conclusion. Use it or don’t. Don’t complain because you don’t like having your arguments gone through on a point to point basis.
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New? I've been around here since 2005. And you didn't go though my post to address points. You responded trivially, with some condescension, because you want to rage about your rights.
 
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RF667799 said:
I just don't see that what you claim as faults of the "gun culture" are contributing in any significant way to crime.
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Then explain it. Simple enough. There are other countries that share many of our gun laws. Yet, where are just about all of the high profile mass shootings?

If you can't see a connection between our irresponsible gun culture and our crazies, then explain why high school shootings, preschool shootings, theater shootings, and Vegas shootings don't occur on a regular basis everywhere else? Where are the Swiss, Norwegian, and Israeli crazies?
 
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zsu2357 said:
And none of those countries are the U.S. where WE teach kids how evil guns are but yet revel in movies and tv that glorify guns.
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BINGO!

Welcome to my point about our irresponsible gun culture. Like the other yahoo here, were you not so busy dissecting every sentence apart in order to make stupid comments, you might have presented a better discussion.
 
MSgt said:
BINGO!

Welcome to my point about our irresponsible gun culture. Like the other yahoo here, were you not so busy dissecting every sentence apart in order to make stupid comments, you might have presented a better discussion.
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What is the "gun culture" in your mind? I've never been in a movie.
 
MSgt said:
Then explain it. Simple enough. There are other countries that share many of our gun laws. Yet, where are just about all of the high profile mass shootings?

If you can't see a connection between our irresponsible gun culture and our crazies, then explain why high school shootings, preschool shootings, theater shootings, and Vegas shootings don't occur on a regular basis everywhere else? Where are the Swiss, Norwegian, and Israeli crazies?
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And why do you think our crazies come from the ranks of the "irresponsible gun culture"? Did the Vegas shooter buy guns because he was a "gun culture" guy? Or did he buy guns because he was a murder culture guy?

I've seen some links here that have overall crime down. But yeah, there have been some high profile mass murders and they're terrible things. But I'm not ready to accept the blame for them simply because I bought a few accessories for my AR15.
 
MSgt said:
I have common sense.

- Switzerland contains one of the most well-armed populations on the planet.
- Finland, Norway, and Italy are among the counties with the easiest gun laws on the planet.
- Virtually every Israeli is properly trained to handle weapons and plenty of them carry.

Yet, it is in the United States where we see an exponentially rising amount of lunatics and their mass killing tantrums. Why? Defaulting to "prove it," despite the common sense of this is a part of that refusal to acknowledge that we absolutely do stand far apart from those who are like us.
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Just saying, in Switzerland, after your mandatory military service, you can bring your gun home but you can't bring any ammo. All the ammo must stay in the armory at base. So yeah, a lot of people have guns here, but not a lot have ammo. (all though getting a firearm and ammo is pretty easy, all you have to do is fill out a form to get a shooting license : if you have no pending legal charges and are an adult, it happens pretty fast).

The problem isn't laws. The problem has always been the culture.
 
Cisero said:
Just saying, in Switzerland, after your mandatory military service, you can bring your gun home but you can't bring any ammo. All the ammo must stay in the armory at base. So yeah, a lot of people have guns here, but not a lot have ammo. (all though getting a firearm and ammo is pretty easy, all you have to do is fill out a form to get a shooting license : if you have no pending legal charges and are an adult, it happens pretty fast).

The problem isn't laws. The problem has always been the culture.
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Actually, the Swiss can keep ammo at home. They just can't keep Army issued ammo at home.
 
Rucker61 said:
Actually, the Swiss can keep ammo at home. They just can't keep Army issued ammo at home.
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Yeah I know, I served. It was just regarding the gun owner stat. A lot of people have guns, but not a lot have ammo. If you want ammo, you need to purchase it at a designated armory, and you need a carrying license (not hard to get). Just merely stating "Switzerland has a lot of gun owners" is in my opinion not at all comparable to the situation in the US.
 
Cisero said:
Yeah I know, I served. It was just regarding the gun owner stat. A lot of people have guns, but not a lot have ammo. If you want ammo, you need to purchase it at a designated armory, and you need a carrying license (not hard to get). Just merely stating "Switzerland has a lot of gun owners" is in my opinion not at all comparable to the situation in the US.
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Agreed. It really doesn't make sense to compare the US to any other country.
 
MSgt said:
Because people are messy. It's why people always tend to avoid getting to the bottom of things. Legislation (or a mindless slogan) is black and white and we get to pretend that the whole thing is simple.

I argue further. It's not just about the growing number of lunatics and exponential rise in mass attacks. It's about the ever worsening and irresponsible gun culture from where the lunatic swims. Just look on the back of people's cars. Stickers of erect bullets to represent family members or funny little slogans of gun violence don their vehicles as if what they are referring to aren't lethal weapons that command far more respect than what is given. Did these cars look like this decades ago when a mass killing was always a shock to the public? Today, we see a mass shooting and everybody's response is "sigh, again?" It didn't used to be this way. The lunatic sees them as toys, because our population largely treats them like toys.

View attachment 67228005View attachment 67228006

What fun!
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Very well said. The gun culture in this country is largely responsible for the weapons of choice for these things. So that's why we keep talking guns.
 
RF667799 said:
People better quit looking at baseball bats as toys before we have an epidemic of clubbing going on.
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Gee that's smart: avoid the facts and divert because you can't handle the subject.

good thinking
 
blackjack50 said:
And this is a problem why? lol. What? You don’t want people to play “pretend soldiers” with their weapons? I mean do you have a problem with me doing Brazilian jiu Jitsu? Nothing more than a military art turned into a “game.” Or is it ok for me to have training that teaches me how to choke or snap limbs?



“Oh the children.”

.

Yep. Different countries with different borders and different histories and different people and different problems.



And we still have a minuscule amount of people who are a problem when they legally buy a gun. Shocker huh? Do you know how many legally purchased firearms are used for crime?

You want to know what the problem is? Drugs. Alcohol. Poverty. Gangs. You want to look at the murder rate in America...most are done with a handgun. And most involve drugs or alcohol and criminal activity beyond murder. Yea. We have a problem. It ain’t the tools. It is the people. And crying “oh the children” will NEVER solve the problem.

You are going to continue to demand controls until they are banned. If you aren’t for total banishment...then all you are saying is that everyone should be able to buy some type of gun. In which case...your argument is self defeating. No amount of gun control is going to change the murder rates because there will always be guns to buy. And if you are for total banishment...fine. I can live with your logic. But just remember that is not only impossible...it is asking for a world in which we have the same criminals but now the biggest and toughest win. And the sheep are unarmed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Can't hack that this guy see you comin and goin eh?
 
jet57 said:
Very well said. The gun culture in this country is largely responsible for the weapons of choice for these things. So that's why we keep talking guns.
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Handguns are the most commonly used firearms in mass shootings. You know this.
 
Rucker61 said:
Handguns are the most commonly used firearms in mass shootings. You know this.
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Yeah we know this and probably a lot of anti gun people. But if someone uses a AR-15 well watch out because suddenly it's a machine gun a weapon of war an assault rife and "weapon". IT LOOKS SCAARRY. Wonder what would happen if someone used an M1 Carbine?
 
zsu2357 said:
Yeah we know this and probably a lot of anti gun people. But if someone uses a AR-15 well watch out because suddenly it's a machine gun a weapon of war an assault rife and "weapon". IT LOOKS SCAARRY. Wonder what would happen if someone used an M1 Carbine?
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Yes. Gun control should focus most heavily on handguns.
 
jet57 said:
Gee that's smart: avoid the facts and divert because you can't handle the subject.

good thinking
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Gee that's clumsy. An absolutely unsupported claim.
 
vegas giants said:
Yes. Gun control should focus most heavily on handguns.
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Maybe we could focus on the causes of violence instead?

Nah. Easier to blame something else rather than humans.
 
vegas giants said:
We should take a full spectrum approach to reducing mass shootings. Ignoring the tool used is ridiculous
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Do you even know what the common themes are for mass shooters? It is a history of antisocial, sometimes violent conduct, not any particular belief set. And so. Do you think gun control is going to stop that anti social and violent conduct? Your answer will probably be some response along the lines of “well it will reduce if.”

Great. They may go stab 7 hookers or a classmate instead. Yep. Such a win right there for society. Or maybe they just kill the target of their rage and violence. Sigh. The focus on guns has completely stolen the show from what reality is. And unfortunately not a single politician has the nuts to stand up to the dip ****s in their respective camps that want to focus on the tool rather than the person. Tools aren’t the solution (security). Neither are taking away the tools. But I’m betting you don’t really care do you?
 
zsu2357 said:
Yeah we know this and probably a lot of anti gun people. But if someone uses a AR-15 well watch out because suddenly it's a machine gun a weapon of war an assault rife and "weapon". IT LOOKS SCAARRY. Wonder what would happen if someone used an M1 Carbine?
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Jet's desire to ban stuff is based purely on his desire that others should not be able to own or carry firearms that the state of California bans him from owning or carrying
 
Here are some other factors. We have a limited knowledge of the primary cause of shootings. That cause being antisocial personality disorders. The vast majority of shooters (if not all) could be diagnosed with these. History of violence and other issues. And what we also know is that our prisons have something like 85% population with an anti social personality disorder.

https://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/antisocial.html

Just a resource. What we do know about treatment is that is is a crap shoot. We don’t have much in the way of dealing with those diagnosed and having it later on. But what we do know is that early recognition of warning signs and coping with it before it presents (wholistic). Reducing the risk factors and intervening long before it develops into a true issue. Teaching kids to be less narcissistic, dealing with rejection, and how to express anger in healthy ways. How to be constructive basically. Or how to remove themselves from a situation and give them a sense of personal responsibility. Teaching kids to not be a victim. Personally? I see the losers who commit these acts as the ultimate form of victim mentality. They are so narcissistic that they completely divorce themselves from reality where they had control.

But anyway. This is the kind of thing that gets talked to death. Not solved. But maybe if we started with our kids in school? Maybe it could get somewhere.
 
blackjack50 said:
Do you even know what the common themes are for mass shooters? It is a history of antisocial, sometimes violent conduct, not any particular belief set. And so. Do you think gun control is going to stop that anti social and violent conduct? Your answer will probably be some response along the lines of “well it will reduce if.”

Great. They may go stab 7 hookers or a classmate instead. Yep. Such a win right there for society. Or maybe they just kill the target of their rage and violence. Sigh. The focus on guns has completely stolen the show from what reality is. And unfortunately not a single politician has the nuts to stand up to the dip ****s in their respective camps that want to focus on the tool rather than the person. Tools aren’t the solution (security). Neither are taking away the tools. But I’m betting you don’t really care do you?
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I want a full spectrum approach. To say we should do a lot of things but COMPLETELY IGNORE guns is just silly. It is the head in the sand approach. I want gun control because I do care. Its time for real gun control
 
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