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Guns do not represent American values[W:212]

Re: Guns do not represent American values

JMR said:
I simply suggested that perhaps gun owners have better ideas for solutions to the overwhelming gun violence than those put forth so far. I did not ask you to neuter yourself. Perhaps you don't even agree that there is a gun violence problem in the US. All things possible....I don't shock easy anymore.
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there is a gun violence problem in Democrat run inner cities mainly perpetrated by young black and hispanic males who are engaged in the drug trade. Most of those people cannot legally own guns do either to their age or (far more likely) their felony records. why lawful gun owners are responsible for that is beyond reason. We gun owners believe laws that punish harmful uses of firearms should be enforced and the government shouldn't waste its time harassing honest gun owners with stupid crap like "magazine bans" that only impact honest gun owners
 
Re: Guns do not represent American values

JMR said:
I simply suggested that perhaps gun owners have better ideas for solutions to the overwhelming gun violence than those put forth so far. I did not ask you to neuter yourself. Perhaps you don't even agree that there is a gun violence problem in the US. All things possible....I don't shock easy anymore.
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My idea for a solution to the gun violence in this country is to have criminals who commit gun violence put away where they can't hurt people. And this applies not just to criminals who commit gun crime but criminals who commit all and any kind of violent crime.
 
Re: Guns do not represent American values

TurtleDude said:
that is a disconnect with reality. In california they have banned many of the most popular rifles in the USA. You cannot buy ammo across state lines now. They tried to make it a crime to merely own a 15 round magazine that you many well have bought from the federal government's Dept of Civilian Marksmanship and owned lawfully for 30 years.
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Not commenting on the validity of any of the above attempts....Are these fair reasons to oppose a democratic candidate in say, Arkansas, or Alaska, simply because he/she is a democrat? And therefore considered a threat to gun owners?
 
Re: Guns do not represent American values

DebateChallenge said:
My idea for a solution to the gun violence in this country is to have criminals who commit gun violence put away where they can't hurt people. And this applies not just to criminals who commit gun crime but criminals who commit all and any kind of violent crime.
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How would that prevent their first crime?
 
Re: Guns do not represent American values

JMR said:
How would that prevent their first crime?
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People would be more reluctant to commit crime when they know there's consequences for doing so.
 
Re: Guns do not represent American values

TurtleDude said:
there is a gun violence problem in Democrat run inner cities mainly perpetrated by young black and hispanic males who are engaged in the drug trade. Most of those people cannot legally own guns do either to their age or (far more likely) their felony records. why lawful gun owners are responsible for that is beyond reason. We gun owners believe laws that punish harmful uses of firearms should be enforced and the government shouldn't waste its time harassing honest gun owners with stupid crap like "magazine bans" that only impact honest gun owners
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Mm-hmm...which is why per capita, it's so much safer in gun-friendly and VERY-conservative Deep South? Oh, wait:

us-crime-rate-map-by-county-all-race-age-adjusted-firearm-homicides-rates-county-2004-2010-c.jpg

But I get it - to you, you've just gotta blame the Blacks and Hispanics - you just did, so don't deny it - and you see no reason at all to think that maybe, just maybe the "real America", the oh-so-gun-friendly and very-conservative Deep South might be even worse as a whole, that while individual urban areas in blue states might be bad, entire states in the Deep South might be just as bad....
 
Re: Guns do not represent American values

TurtleDude said:
there is a gun violence problem in Democrat run inner cities mainly perpetrated by young black and hispanic males who are engaged in the drug trade. Most of those people cannot legally own guns do either to their age or (far more likely) their felony records. why lawful gun owners are responsible for that is beyond reason. We gun owners believe laws that punish harmful uses of firearms should be enforced and the government shouldn't waste its time harassing honest gun owners with stupid crap like "magazine bans" that only impact honest gun owners
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So as a knowledgable and responsible gun owner you feel no compunction whatsoever to be part of the solution to people dying by gun violence in this country at a rate otherwise unknown on the planet. OK...you almost shocked me there. I expected a little more. Nowhere did I say you were responsible for gun violence, only that as a gun owner you might have special insight. If I'm wrong, apologies.
 
Re: Guns do not represent American values

jet57 said:
The problem is all the money and propaganda poured on by the gun lobby at the NRA and their minions who haunt these page and continue to abuse the constitution. Things like this take time, but when the Dems take over, it'll get on the agenda.
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Does the NRA buy off state elections? Bloomberg does. Amazing what kinda propaganda the right amount of money buys. MDA, EVERYTOWN etc.
 
Re: Guns do not represent American values

DebateChallenge said:
People would be more reluctant to commit crime when they know there's consequences for doing so.
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That's the same argument for the death penalty. Has not been shown to be the least bit valid.
 
Re: Guns do not represent American values

JMR said:
Not commenting on the validity of any of the above attempts....Are these fair reasons to oppose a democratic candidate in say, Arkansas, or Alaska, simply because he/she is a democrat? And therefore considered a threat to gun owners?
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no-for example I voted for and gave 1000 dollars to Richard Cordray in his re-election attempt for Ohio AG against Republican Mike DeWine. Sadly Corday-who was far more pro gun rights than DeWine lost as the Dems took a beating in the midterm election. I voted for Ted Strickland in his unsuccessful reelection attempt against Kasich who had voted for the clinton gun ban (Strickland, then a freshman democrat congressman voted AGAINST the Clinton gun ban). I later supported Kasich because he shed his gun banning ways
 
Re: Guns do not represent American values

JMR said:
So as a knowledgable and responsible gun owner you feel no compunction whatsoever to be part of the solution to people dying by gun violence in this country at a rate otherwise unknown on the planet. OK...you almost shocked me there. I expected a little more. Nowhere did I say you were responsible for gun violence, only that as a gun owner you might have special insight. If I'm wrong, apologies.
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I agree I might have misread or misinterpreted your comments-several liberals constantly claim we gun owners have a duty to do something about gun violence
 
Re: Guns do not represent American values

Glen Contrarian said:
Mm-hmm...which is why per capita, it's so much safer in gun-friendly and VERY-conservative Deep South? Oh, wait:

View attachment 67227764

But I get it - to you, you've just gotta blame the Blacks and Hispanics - you just did, so don't deny it - and you see no reason at all to think that maybe, just maybe the "real America", the oh-so-gun-friendly and very-conservative Deep South might be even worse as a whole, that while individual urban areas in blue states might be bad, entire states in the Deep South might be just as bad....
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your silly and pathetic attempts to place the race card is rejected as being contrary to logic and reality. why don't you do a little research and find out who is causing most of murders in the USA, sure isn't white good old boys in the South.
 
Re: Guns do not represent American values

JMR said:
That's the same argument for the death penalty. Has not been shown to be the least bit valid.
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gun control and the death penalty are mirror images of each other. Many conservatives support the DP claiming it will decrease crime when the evidence is to the contrary. Same with gun control from liberals. the only real difference is that the DP is usually aimed at and applied to the guilty while gun control is generally aimed at the people least likely to misuse firearms
 
Re: Guns do not represent American values

JMR said:
I think the most rabid probably favor a waiting period, or a ban on certain ammunition. There is no movement to upend the 2nd amendment. The idea that there is however is very useful for GOP candidates who can just vote 100% with the NRA and curry favor with a segment of the voting public.
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Listen to Murphy sometime and others but especially him.
 
Re: Guns do not represent American values

TurtleDude said:
gun control and the death penalty are mirror images of each other. Many conservatives support the DP claiming it will decrease crime when the evidence is to the contrary. Same with gun control from liberals. the only real difference is that the DP is usually aimed at and applied to the guilty while gun control is generally aimed at the people least likely to misuse firearms
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I was agreeing until you started sounding almost victimy.
 
Re: Guns do not represent American values

Rucker61 said:
Giffords is pro-gun ownership.
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Yes but she has come out supporting some restrictions, mag limits is one of them I think.
 
Re: Guns do not represent American values

JMR said:
That's the same argument for the death penalty. Has not been shown to be the least bit valid.
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In this country you're innocent until proven guilty, or at least that's how our system is supposed to work. As on how to stop criminals from committing their first crime unfortunately we don't know beforehand who will commit crime and who wont and so everybody is presumed innocent until proven guilty. As such, potential criminals will commit their first crimes and while hopefully they will be caught and put away the damage will already have been done for that first crime, but that is the tradeoff of having a free society when not everybody is treated like a criminal before they've committed any crimes. After all, we don't know who to lock up beforehand because we don't know who will commit crime beforehand.
 
Re: Guns do not represent American values

JMR said:
I was agreeing until you started sounding almost victimy.
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not victimy at all but since you appear to look at this fairly logically lets use some logic

felons and those intent on using guns for criminal purposes violate federal law by merely possessing a gun. A felon cannot possess a gun for any purpose whatsoever and doing so is a violation of 18 USC 922 which carries a 5-20 year (depending on past record) federal prison sentence. IN addition felons possessing firearms is a felony in almost every state

so bans on "assault weapons" or "high capacity magazines" only impacts people who can lawfully own guns
 
Re: Guns do not represent American values

Lursa said:
Yes but she has come out supporting some restrictions, mag limits is one of them I think.
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she sadly is a pawn of those who want far more than the gun control laws she supported before her sad crippling
 
Re: Guns do not represent American values

DebateChallenge said:
Abuse the constitution? The gun lobby and the NRA respects and lives by the constitution, they don't abuse it. If anything, its lawmakers who try to pass laws that violate the constitution, and those that back such lawmakers, who abuse the constitution.
As for the Dems taking over, they had their chance during the Obama administration and they failed.
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https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ns-kill-people-in-us-pervert-second-amendment

The right to the pursuit of happiness AND of life are constantly threatened by the NRA crowd, and the record of mass shootings in this country bears that out.
 
Re: Guns do not represent American values

JMR said:
I think the most rabid probably favor a waiting period, or a ban on certain ammunition. There is no movement to upend the 2nd amendment. The idea that there is however is very useful for GOP candidates who can just vote 100% with the NRA and curry favor with a segment of the voting public.
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Do you have a waiting period to buy your car? Or anything for that matter. I know, how about you found the perfect car/truck you wanted but then the salesman says no can do. Because they (govt)did a study on drunk drivers and concluded that Fords were a public menace because that model had the most accidents. Or hell maybe the color red resulted in more accidents so hand them in by specified date. Sounds pretty stupid don't it. I think what I'm getting at is the fact that just because some sicko does something,me and other law abiding people get sick of being blamed for what we aren't going to do,just to somehow punish a few that do. Which they will do anyhow.
 
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