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The GAO attempted 72 times to buy guns illegally on the surface web . . .

Harshaw said:
Misunderstanding.




I'm not sure what you think the excerpt from Wikipedia shows? You bolded a part of it; that's not an indication of what people say when discussing the "gun show loophole."
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Can you find a credible source saying that the gun show loophole is referring to the idea that people at gun shows are knowingly selling firearms to felons?
 
roughdraft274 said:
I'm not the first person in this very thread to bring up the term. Hershaw brought it up.

See, this is exactly why we can't have good things in the gun control forum. No intelligent discussions. You are just gnawing to complain about anything that has nothing to do with what I'm actually saying.
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1) there is no gun show loophole-its a fraudulent term that the gun banning movement came up with

2) the anti gun side is the side that constantly uses terms that are either dishonest or are designed to inflame the sheeple

3) many anti gun arguments are directed towards possible behavior that almost never happens in real life (such as thugs frequenting gun shows to buy weapons or buying weapons from unsuspecting private sellers)

4) the real crime is a felon in possession which has serious federal consequences. Many anti gunners whine constantly about speculated ways criminals get guns without wanting to do much about the real crime-criminals using firearms or those who are the main source of criminals' firearms-straw purchasers who damn well know the person they are supplying has a record.

5) its the same overall-the anti gun left spends all sorts of efforts pushing gun laws that mainly or ONLY impact lawful gun owners (waiting periods, licenses, "assault weapons bans" etc) and getting upset when we point out that you don't control criminals by harassing honest people
 
TurtleDude said:
1) there is no gun show loophole-its a fraudulent term that the gun banning movement came up with

2) the anti gun side is the side that constantly uses terms that are either dishonest or are designed to inflame the sheeple

3) many anti gun arguments are directed towards possible behavior that almost never happens in real life (such as thugs frequenting gun shows to buy weapons or buying weapons from unsuspecting private sellers)

4) the real crime is a felon in possession which has serious federal consequences. Many anti gunners whine constantly about speculated ways criminals get guns without wanting to do much about the real crime-criminals using firearms or those who are the main source of criminals' firearms-straw purchasers who damn well know the person they are supplying has a record.

5) its the same overall-the anti gun left spends all sorts of efforts pushing gun laws that mainly or ONLY impact lawful gun owners (waiting periods, licenses, "assault weapons bans" etc) and getting upset when we point out that you don't control criminals by harassing honest people
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Which one of my posts are you responding to? Where did I make any arguments against this?

Last response to you. I'm not going to constantly here the same BS from you about stuff that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. Not worth my time.
 
roughdraft274 said:
Can you find a credible source saying that the gun show loophole is referring to the idea that people at gun shows are knowingly selling firearms to felons?
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I didn't say "people at gun shows."

But here:

There is overwhelming statistical evidence
to conclude that criminals and traffickers
have figured out the gun show loophole
and are using it to fuel the illicit market in
guns.
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http://content.thirdway.org/publications/285/Gun_Show_Report_Final.pdf
 
roughdraft274 said:
Which one of my posts are you responding to? Where did I make any arguments against this?

Last response to you. I'm not going to constantly here the same BS from you about stuff that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. Not worth my time.
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why are you talking about gun show loopholes if its not about felons getting guns



you didn't even include my full quotes which is dishonest in your signature. the full quote noted the difference between arms length private sales vs straw transfers or black market sales where the participants know the other is a thug
 
this is why the complaints about the "loophole" are bogus

TurtleDude said:
you are confused. I never denied that many criminals get guns in private sales. I am denying that a background check would have any use since the only people who are going to be deterred from making a sale to a criminal by that stupid law are those who DO NOT KNOW the person they are selling to is a criminals.

that is my point. The huge majority of people who sell firearms or give firearms to felons are people who know or have a reasonable belief the buyer is a criminal.
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Harshaw said:
I didn't say "people at gun shows."

But here:



http://content.thirdway.org/publications/285/Gun_Show_Report_Final.pdf
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S
ince 1993, with the passage of the Brady Law, each of the more than 80,000 individuals
and businesses federally licensed to sell firearms must perform background
checks whenever and wherever they sell guns. But unlicensed individuals are
under no obligation to perform background checks when they sell their private collection
of firearms. The law was meant to differentiate between those who sell firearms as
a business and those who occasionally sell a firearm to a friend, neighbor, or family
member.
An unintended consequence of the law is the so-called “gun show loophole.” At gun
shows, licensed dealers must perform background checks on all purchasers of firearms,
but a growing number of unlicensed sellers who claim to be selling parts of their private
collection do not. Thus, many “occasional” sellers of firearms have become habitual
sellers at weekend gun shows. The “private collection” of firearms from certain
unlicensed sellers has begun to include new handguns still in the box. This loophole
has created a situation at over one thousand gun shows each year where sellers at one
table must perform background checks, while sellers offering the same firearms at
another table do not. According to the National Rifle Association, “hundreds of thousands”
of firearms are sold without background checks each year at gun shows by unlicensed
sellers.1
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Your source says nothing about people knowingly selling guns to felons or prohibited people. Like I said from the beginning. Two very different things.
 
roughdraft274 said:
Your source says nothing about people knowingly selling guns to felons or prohibited people. Like I said from the beginning. Two very different things.
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What else can "criminals and traffickers have figured out the gun show loophole and are using it to fuel the illicit market in guns" mean other than knowingly selling guns to felons or prohibited people?

How can a "trafficker" "use" something they've "figured out" unintentionally? What else could the "illicit market in guns" be but felons and prohibited people?
 
Harshaw said:
What else can "criminals and traffickers have figured out the gun show loophole and are using it to fuel the illicit market in guns" mean other than knowingly selling guns to felons or prohibited people?

How can a "trafficker" "use" something they've "figured out" unintentionally? What else could the "illicit market in guns" be but felons and prohibited people?
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It means that criminals and traffickers have found that they can go buy guns at gun shows, new in the box, with out a back ground check and can then go and sell those to other criminals or use them in crimes and they are not linked back to them in anyway. If a gun trafficker buys 100 guns at the store, a few of them are found at crime scenes hey can be traced back to them assuming all the paperwork is in order, and admittedly with the current system it's a bit of a pain to track, but can be done.

If you buy a bunch of guns from a private seller at a gun show then they are not linked to you in any way shape or form.
 
roughdraft274 said:
It means that criminals and traffickers have found that they can go buy guns at gun shows, new in the box, with out a back ground check and can then go and sell those to other criminals or use them in crimes and they are not linked back to them in anyway. If a gun trafficker buys 100 guns at the store, a few of them are found at crime scenes hey can be traced back to them assuming all the paperwork is in order, and admittedly with the current system it's a bit of a pain to track, but can be done.

If you buy a bunch of guns from a private seller at a gun show then they are not linked to you in any way shape or form.
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What, that's not:

people knowingly selling guns to felons or prohibited people.
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?
 
Harshaw said:
What, that's not:



?
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No, because at the gun show, or at the first purchase, they didn't go in screaming "I'm a felon sell me a gun".

Your source simply doesn't back up your claim. It's all about how the loophole is supposedly allowing for people to sell guns by the hundreds, brand new and in the box, to a person without even seeing their name or recording the sale or having a background check. It has nothing to do with people "knowingly" selling to felons. It's about giving the felons a perfect place to go in and buy a gun where the other person has no chance of telling that they are a felon.
 
roughdraft274 said:
No, because at the gun show, or at the first purchase, they didn't go in screaming "I'm a felon sell me a gun".
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That isn't the question. The question was solely about people knowingly selling guns to those who shouldn't have them. It's also not about what happens at gun shows, so I don't know why you keep trying to tie it to that.

Your source simply doesn't back up your claim. It's all about how the loophole is supposedly allowing for people to sell guns by the hundreds, brand new and in the box, to a person without even seeing their name or recording the sale or having a background check. It has nothing to do with people "knowingly" selling to felons. It's about giving the felons a perfect place to go in and buy a gun where the other person has no chance of telling that they are a felon.
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My claim was that much of the noise about closing the "gun show loophole" was about people in private sales knowingly selling guns to criminals. I gave you an article whose conclusion states exactly that.
 
Harshaw said:
That isn't the question. The question was solely about people knowingly selling guns to those who shouldn't have them. It's also not about what happens at gun shows, so I don't know why you keep trying to tie it to that.



My claim was that much of the noise about closing the "gun show loophole" was about people in private sales knowingly selling guns to criminals. I gave you an article whose conclusion states exactly that.
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Nope nope nope.

Harshaw said:
It demonstrates lawful gun owners unanimously unwilling to sell guns to people who shouldn't have them.
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If we are now talking about gun traffickers selling firearms to people they know to be felons then we are no longer discussing what you originally claimed. IE that lawful gun owners would knowingly sell to felons.

Different thing completely.

Have fun. I'm not debating this anymore. We don't need to agree with whether it's a problem or not, but if you can't accept the universal definition of what the gun show loophole actually is, then you aren't worth the time.
 
roughdraft274 said:
Nope nope nope.



If we are now talking about gun traffickers selling firearms to people they know to be felons then we are no longer discussing what you originally claimed.

IE that lawful gun owners would knowingly sell to felons.

Different thing completely.
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No, you're just adding a load of assumptions, apparently around the word "trafficker." The article differentiates "traffickers" and "criminals," but you're assuming that the traffickers are not lawful purchasers of the guns they traffic.

Have fun. I'm not debating this anymore. We don't need to agree with whether it's a problem or not, but if you can't accept the universal definition of what the gun show loophole actually is, then you aren't worth the time.
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Where did I get anything wrong about what the "gun show loophole" actually is?

If you think I did, especially if you think it concerns ONLY what happens at gun shows, then the problem is that you don't actually know what it is yourself, which is why it does look like you needed the others here to explain to you exactly why "gun show loophole" is (to bend over backwards to be charitable to it) a misnomer.
 
roughdraft274 said:
It means that criminals and traffickers have found that they can go buy guns at gun shows, new in the box, with out a back ground check and can then go and sell those to other criminals or use them in crimes and they are not linked back to them in anyway. If a gun trafficker buys 100 guns at the store, a few of them are found at crime scenes hey can be traced back to them assuming all the paperwork is in order, and admittedly with the current system it's a bit of a pain to track, but can be done.

If you buy a bunch of guns from a private seller at a gun show then they are not linked to you in any way shape or form.
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LOL you just proved you have absolutely no understanding about federal firearms laws

and you prove once again you have no clue how gun shows work. if someone has a whole bunch of new guns in the box sitting on a table and isn't running background checks, he's gonna be getting immediate attention from state and federal LEOs who are all over gun shows.
 
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