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Why gun control?

Russell797 said:
No personal attack...Conservatives are not known for their support of social programs...Quite the opposite in fact...Never the sponsor of any and always trying to chip away at them...and blaming those who need it for their condition in life.

It's we bleeding heart liberals who support those ideas..
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"Of course you would be against that too,"

Did you forget about that line?
 
Russell797 said:
Ok, my bad....You list yourself as a "Centrist"....not a conservative...
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You addressed it specifically at me prior to addressing conservatives. Learn to write correctly.
 
Rucker61 said:
You addressed it specifically at me prior to addressing conservatives. Learn to write correctly.
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Right because I assumed you to be a conservative, since you are arguing on their side and I was discussing the issue with you in particular...I apologized...not good enough?

"The facts show that the more guns in a society, the more safe it is. That's the facts ."

Do you think that is true? I don't...If there were zero guns in society we would be much more safe...Guns are the most effective means for creating mayhem.
 
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Russell797 said:
Right because I assumed you to be a conservative, since you are arguing on their side and I was discussing the issue with you in particular...I apologized...not good enough?
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I missed the apology.

"The facts show that the more guns in a society, the more safe it is. That's the facts ."

Do you think that is true? I don't...If there were zero guns in society we would be much more safe...Guns are the most effective means for creating mayhem.
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Actually, I'm quoting someone who absolutely doesn't believe it's true, but mistyped. We'll never have zero guns, and in a zero gun society, there is no protection for the weak against the strong.
 
Rucker61 said:
I missed the apology.



Actually, I'm quoting someone who absolutely doesn't believe it's true, but mistyped. We'll never have zero guns, and in a zero gun society, there is no protection for the weak against the strong.
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That (bolded above) leaves out the role of the (omnipotent?) government. Many seem to actually believe that the government (via police?) can protect the weaker (crime victims) from the stronger (criminals). In practice, the police normally arrive too late in the process and we are left only to hope that future folks (potential victims) may fare better.
 
Russell797 said:
I want highly studied, remedial measures to be put into place which address the problem of 30,000 gun deaths every year. We don't do that...We are not even allowed to have the conversation...not me and you...but in a clinical, scientific setting.
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Well that's because gun control has been highly studied. and has been found to be ineffective and in some cases actually made things worse. That research has been done and yet..liberals ignore it.

We had an assault weapons ban for 10 years. We studied its effect.. and found there was no statistically significant decrease in violent crime, or gun crime.

Canada had long gun registration.. they studied it.. found that it had little to no effect on gun crime.

Canada has had its gun control on handguns studied.. and found that it had no statistically significant effect.

And so it goes.

Adam lanza kills his mother and steals her firearm. Whats liberals first call for? Background checks!!.

We have that conversation.. over and over and over.. and over and over and over when it comes to the science. Liberals do not want to accept it. They continue to call for more research hoping to prove that gun control works...

The federal assault-weapons ban, scheduled to expire in September, is not responsible for the nation’s steady decline in gun-related violence and its renewal likely will achieve little, according to an independent study commissioned by the National Institute of Justice (NIJ).


“We cannot clearly credit the ban with any of the nation’s recent drop in gun violence. And, indeed, there has been no discernible reduction in the lethality and injuriousness of gun violence,” said the unreleased NIJ report, written by Christopher Koper, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania.


“It is thus premature to make definitive assessments of the ban’s impact on gun violence. Should it be renewed, the ban’s effects on gun violence are likely to be small at best and perhaps too small for reliable measurement,” said the report, a copy of which was obtained by The Washington Times.
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jaeger19 said:
Well that's because gun control has been highly studied. and has been found to be ineffective and in some cases actually made things worse. That research has been done and yet..liberals ignore it.

We had an assault weapons ban for 10 years. We studied its effect.. and found there was no statistically significant decrease in violent crime, or gun crime.

Canada had long gun registration.. they studied it.. found that it had little to no effect on gun crime.

Canada has had its gun control on handguns studied.. and found that it had no statistically significant effect.

And so it goes.

Adam lanza kills his mother and steals her firearm. Whats liberals first call for? Background checks!!.

We have that conversation.. over and over and over.. and over and over and over when it comes to the science. Liberals do not want to accept it. They continue to call for more research hoping to prove that gun control works...
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these cogent points of yours might matter to anti gun advocates if crime control was their real goal

its not-its all about harassing conservative gun owners and the NRA
 
TurtleDude said:
these cogent points of yours might matter to anti gun advocates if crime control was their real goal

its not-its all about harassing conservative gun owners and the NRA
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I think for the politicians it is.

For the rest? Most anti gun folks in my opinion have simply bought into an irrational fear of 1. their fellow citizens and 2. Firearms.

usually because of ignorance.


Its really no different than how republican politicians have used Voter ID laws to suppress votes from democrat leaning people.. in the guise of "protecting voter rights"..

Most of the people that support voter ID laws.. don't actually realize the purpose is to suppress the vote of democrat leaning people.. they are buying into their ignorance and irrational fear of minorities.

think about it.. IF voter ID was really about one person one vote.. republicans would be all over stopping absentee ballots since there is Absolutely no way to ensure that the person actually filling out the ballot is the person that ballot is meant for.
 
Rucker61 said:
I missed the apology.



Actually, I'm quoting someone who absolutely doesn't believe it's true, but mistyped. We'll never have zero guns, and in a zero gun society, there is no protection for the weak against the strong.
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There are protections against those who seek to do harm without resorting to guns. The problem is they are not as good an option as is a gun when the threat possesses a gun..In other words people need guns to protect themselves from others with guns. We need guns because there are guns out there....in science we call that a positive feedback loop. That's why we have over 300 million guns and it's still not enough...

But, we made our bed so now we must sleep in it...so you are correct, we will never have zero guns. We live with the consequences and will continue to.
 
Russell797 said:
There are protections against those who seek to do harm without resorting to guns. The problem is they are not as good an option as is a gun when the threat possesses a gun..In other words people need guns to protect themselves from others with guns. We need guns because there are guns out there....in science we call that a positive feedback loop. That's why we have over 300 million guns and it's still not enough...

But, we made our bed so now we must sleep in it...so you are correct, we will never have zero guns. We live with the consequences and will continue to.
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all leftwing gun laws do is disarm the honest citizens and make things safer for violent criminals
 
TurtleDude said:
all leftwing gun laws do is disarm the honest citizens and make things safer for violent criminals
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I thought most violent crime is criminal on criminal..

I know you don't wish to do anything to help prevent 30,000 gun related deaths every year..Your rights and perceived safety are more important to you than those lost lives...I'm not saying they shouldn't be...but to refuse to do anything whatsoever to address other people's problems is extremely selfish and in this case uncivilized...IMHO
 
Russell797 said:
I thought most violent crime is criminal on criminal..

I know you don't wish to do anything to help prevent 30,000 gun related deaths every year..Your rights and perceived safety are more important to you than those lost lives...I'm not saying they shouldn't be...but to refuse to do anything whatsoever to address other people's problems is extremely selfish and in this case uncivilized...IMHO
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Why do you persist in claiming that TD doesn't want to do anything to reduce the number of gun deaths?
 
Russell797 said:
I thought most violent crime is criminal on criminal..

I know you don't wish to do anything to help prevent 30,000 gun related deaths every year..Your rights and perceived safety are more important to you than those lost lives...I'm not saying they shouldn't be...but to refuse to do anything whatsoever to address other people's problems is extremely selfish and in this case uncivilized...IMHO
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emotobabble
 
Rucker61 said:
Why do you persist in claiming that TD doesn't want to do anything to reduce the number of gun deaths?
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its common among anti gun posters who don't like the politics of gun owners. They claim if we don't want to give up our rights, we don't care. Its based on the fraudulent and unproven faith based belief that honest gun ownership and the second amendment cause criminals to kill people
 
TurtleDude said:
its common among anti gun posters who don't like the politics of gun owners. They claim if we don't want to give up our rights, we don't care. Its based on the fraudulent and unproven faith based belief that honest gun ownership and the second amendment cause criminals to kill people
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It seriously is the #1 retort of gun control advocates... "I realize that you don't give a **** about people dying... blah blah blah" ... then next is usually the lack of understanding about the topic as shown by the over-dramatization of the particular weapon(s) and weapon accessories being discussed... "weapon of war" "military style" "assault weapon" and the list goes on and on... Oh, I forgot about the old classic "but do you really NEED an AR-15?", like that has anything to do with anything...
 
gfm7175 said:
It seriously is the #1 retort of gun control advocates... "I realize that you don't give a **** about people dying... blah blah blah" ... then next is usually the lack of understanding about the topic as shown by the over-dramatization of the particular weapon(s) and weapon accessories being discussed... "weapon of war" "military style" "assault weapon" and the list goes on and on... Oh, I forgot about the old classic "but do you really NEED an AR-15?", like that has anything to do with anything...
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gun banners create the need for honest citizens to be well armed
 
Russell797 said:
STATISTICS OF THE YEAR:
Americans killed annually by All Islamic jihadist terrorists 9
Armed toddlers 21
Lightning 31
Lawnmowers 69
Being hit by a bus 264
Falling out of bed 737
Being shot by another American 11,737
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Here's some more numbers:

murders (includes gang violence, mass shootings, and all gun murders): 17,000

car accidents: 33,000

suicide (including guns): 45,000

alcohol: 88,000

smoking related causes: 480,000


Let's be honest, if those 480K Americans were shot to death instead of dying from smoking, the country would probably be under martial law and the feds would probably put strict regulations on the ownership of firearms. But since tobacco products aren't directly used to kill, the only regulation on the customer is being over 18 (higher in some states). Meanwhile for guns, in addition to being over 18, you also need to be a legal resident and you will be disqualified if you have a record showing a conviction for a crime which is punishable by a year or more (including nonviolent crimes such as drug possession) or anything domestic violence (even if it's a misdemeanor). You will also be disqualified if you have been dishonorably discharged from the military, are a fugitive from justice, or if you gave up your citizenship. And those are just federal regulations. Some states have even more backround checks (recently, California has begun regulation on ammo).
 
Masterhawk said:
Here's some more numbers:

murders (includes gang violence, mass shootings, and all gun murders): 17,000

car accidents: 33,000

suicide (including guns): 45,000

alcohol: 88,000

smoking related causes: 480,000


Let's be honest, if those 480K Americans were shot to death instead of dying from smoking, the country would probably be under martial law and the feds would probably put strict regulations on the ownership of firearms. But since tobacco products aren't directly used to kill, the only regulation on the customer is being over 18 (higher in some states). Meanwhile for guns, in addition to being over 18, you also need to be a legal resident and you will be disqualified if you have a record showing a conviction for a crime which is punishable by a year or more (including nonviolent crimes such as drug possession) or anything domestic violence (even if it's a misdemeanor). You will also be disqualified if you have been dishonorably discharged from the military, are a fugitive from justice, or if you gave up your citizenship. And those are just federal regulations. Some states have even more backround checks (recently, California has begun regulation on ammo).
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I support smoking bans everywhere the public congregates. Smokers should keep their dirty, unhealthy habit to themselves...unfortunately they also drive up the cost of health insurance for us all, so their habit/addiction impacts on the rest of us every bit as much as "other" bad habits.

Ideally, bad drivers should be taken off the road before they cause harm to others..alcoholics should not be allowed to drive or own guns. Smokers should pay a premium for health insurance. Mentally ill should not have access to guns...

Gun owners should protect their weapons with their lives, because someone else's life may depend on it....do NOT allow a gun to be stolen.

Those are goals...we should seek to implement them all to the best of our ability, realizing we live in an imperfect world and perfection will always evade us...we should strive to do the best we can.
 
Russell797 said:
I support smoking bans everywhere the public congregates. Smokers should keep their dirty, unhealthy habit to themselves...unfortunately they also drive up the cost of health insurance for us all, so their habit/addiction impacts on the rest of us every bit as much as "other" bad habits.

Ideally, bad drivers should be taken off the road before they cause harm to others..alcoholics should not be allowed to drive or own guns. Smokers should pay a premium for health insurance. Mentally ill should not have access to guns...

Gun owners should protect their weapons with their lives, because someone else's life may depend on it....do NOT allow a gun to be stolen.

Those are goals...we should seek to implement them all to the best of our ability, realizing we live in an imperfect world and perfection will always evade us...we should strive to do the best we can.
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How about if gun owners protect their weapon with the thief's life?
 
Rucker61 said:
Why do you persist in claiming that TD doesn't want to do anything to reduce the number of gun deaths?
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Because actions speak louder than words...Conservatives never want to do anything which is not specifically mentioned in the Constitution..

When was the last time any social program was initiated by Republicans? Republicans don't want the government involved in this issue at all. They have never done anything and they never will if they remain true to their ideology. If it mattered to them they would do something...rather than just attacking and defeating the attempts of others. They don't seek to do it their way...They don't do it at all...That goes for environmental issues to health care to guns...nothing.
 
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