How do you feel about gun accessories

Exactice · Dec 26, 2017

BretJ said:
I have seen reports of suppressed .22lr pistols (Mk22) used in Vietnam by SOF. I have also seen internet refrences of Israeli useing 10/22 rifles for "riot control".

As per post above, yes suppressed 22LR in Vietnam made sense for silent black ops, and riot control to.... I guess. but Israeli, really has not thing to do with our current conflict.

Again the biggest kicker here, is to tell a story like that..... even the basics of shooters would understand why would SOF, use something like a 22LR in desert conditions and under those environments, as an effective weapon? With all the options they do have.... what effectiveness WOULD a 22LR provide for them?

TurtleDude · Dec 26, 2017

Exactice said:
As per post above, yes suppressed 22LR in Vietnam made sense for silent black ops, and riot control to.... I guess. but Israeli, really has not thing to do with our current conflict.

Again the biggest kicker here, is to tell a story like that..... even the basics of shooters would understand why would SOF, use something like a 22LR in desert conditions and under those environments, as an effective weapon? With all the options they do have.... what effectiveness WOULD a 22LR provide for them?

main use of 22 high standard pistols was by tunnel rats. I cannot see where a 22 would have any value in the current conflict

BretJ · Dec 26, 2017

Exactice said:
As per post above, yes suppressed 22LR in Vietnam made sense for silent black ops, and riot control to.... I guess. but Israeli, really has not thing to do with our current conflict.

Again the biggest kicker here, is to tell a story like that..... even the basics of shooters would understand why would SOF, use something like a 22LR in desert conditions and under those environments, as an effective weapon? With all the options they do have.... what effectiveness WOULD a 22LR provide for them?

Fact is that a suppressed M4 firing subsonic ammo has the same effect. Only difference is that it makes the m4 effectivly a bolt action when using subs.

Exactice · Dec 26, 2017

BretJ said:
Fact is that a suppressed M4 firing subsonic ammo has the same effect. Only difference is that it makes the m4 effectivly a bolt action when using subs.

Yups..... Its funny... when people dont realize... how effective, it could or could not be?

Standard Ammo
22lr - 1250fps, @ 38-40gr
5.56 - 3200fps @ 62gr

Now take subsonic
22lr - 900fps @ 38-40gr
5.56 - 900fps @ 62gr

guess people dont realize ballistics....

Now lets throw in rifle twist, Length of barrel..... temperature, elevation, how a 22LR in a basic configuration can be effective vs a Standard issue M4, guess to many Tom Clancy novels... or Call of Duty....

braindrain · Dec 26, 2017

Exactice said:
Yups..... Its funny... when people dont realize... how effective, it could or could not be?

Standard Ammo
22lr - 1250fps, @ 38-40gr
5.56 - 3200fps @ 62gr

Now take subsonic
22lr - 900fps @ 38-40gr
5.56 - 900fps @ 62gr

guess people dont realize ballistics....

Now lets throw in rifle twist, Length of barrel..... temperature, elevation, how a 22LR in a basic configuration can be effective vs a Standard issue M4, guess to many Tom Clancy novels... or Call of Duty....

The whole story was nothing more then a tall tale by a blow hard.

That’s not to say that a few units within the US military don’t use some rather nonstandard calibers because they definitely do. But it’s not 22 and it sure as hell is not for riot control.

BretJ · Dec 26, 2017

Exactice said:
Yups..... Its funny... when people dont realize... how effective, it could or could not be?

Standard Ammo
22lr - 1250fps, @ 38-40gr
5.56 - 3200fps @ 62gr

Now take subsonic
22lr - 900fps @ 38-40gr
5.56 - 900fps @ 62gr

guess people dont realize ballistics....

Now lets throw in rifle twist, Length of barrel..... temperature, elevation, how a 22LR in a basic configuration can be effective vs a Standard issue M4, guess to many Tom Clancy novels... or Call of Duty....

I was looking at the 60gr Aguila .22lr subs. Those hit pretty hard.

beerftw · Dec 26, 2017

Exactice said:
As per post above, yes suppressed 22LR in Vietnam made sense for silent black ops, and riot control to.... I guess. but Israeli, really has not thing to do with our current conflict.

Again the biggest kicker here, is to tell a story like that..... even the basics of shooters would understand why would SOF, use something like a 22LR in desert conditions and under those environments, as an effective weapon? With all the options they do have.... what effectiveness WOULD a 22LR provide for them?

22Lr is only effective when used subsonic in a pistol, as subsonic lacks the range to be used in a rifle at ranges rifles are used for. The only use would be a silent pistol for closer range, using them in rifles seems pointless, unless the goal was suppressive fire to scare crowds with minimum damage, but even then it seems pointless to issue an entirely different ammo and firearm when the 5.56 can handle that same function.

Exactice · Dec 27, 2017

BretJ said:
I was looking at the 60gr Aguila .22lr subs. Those hit pretty hard.

60gr @ 900fps, gotta hit pretty hard.... cant disagree. I guess I would ask what is the purpose is?

I have an ER Shaw match 18" on a rugger 10/22, trigger work all done by me, I shoot CCI and Golden bullets (40gr 1200fps). The best I can do is about 1moa @ 100yards, I can stack @ 50yards no problem. But anything past 100yards is a crap shoot. The round tumbles too much from variables, I have my Ballistic Tables and I think I am pushing 7.42 moa adjustments @ 125 yards, Hell @ 200 yards I have my card at 18.85 MOA. My reticle has is mil dots.... I have 5 mills the best I can get without turning the dials is about 190 yards... So with anything for precision or direct combat usage..... AHAHAH thats HILARIOUS.

this is with 1200fps Ammo... So to say someone is shooting 22LR out to those distance with any point? Kind pointless. Its possible but again WHAT purpose does it serve? HAAHAH.... Man I love the fairy-tales some of these people come up with

beerftw said:
22Lr is only effective when used subsonic in a pistol, as subsonic lacks the range to be used in a rifle at ranges rifles are used for. The only use would be a silent pistol for closer range, using them in rifles seems pointless, unless the goal was suppressive fire to scare crowds with minimum damage, but even then it seems pointless to issue an entirely different ammo and firearm when the 5.56 can handle that same function.

Yups exactly...... So I can TOTALLY see the point of sub 22LR out of a suppressed pistol..... BUT.... as I noted in a previous post.... when to up close and personal work, a 9mm didnt do squat to people high as a kite... 8 shots of standard 9mm with no knock down power, they walked like zombies.. a suppressed 22lr.... is like a BB gun as well.... Unless you are taking head shots.... and lets face it..... that is ONLY in John Wick and Call of Duty... fairy-tales? Im sure many of the true operators here (I AM NO WHERE NEAR ANYTHING specialized) Know truths and abilities... and CENTER mass.....know if this shooting pinky toes, and guns out of peoples hands.... LOL

Rucker61 · Dec 27, 2017

Exactice said:
60gr @ 900fps, gotta hit pretty hard.... cant disagree. I guess I would ask what is the purpose is?

I have an ER Shaw match 18" on a rugger 10/22, trigger work all done by me, I shoot CCI and Golden bullets (40gr 1200fps). The best I can do is about 1moa @ 100yards, I can stack @ 50yards no problem. But anything past 100yards is a crap shoot. The round tumbles too much from variables, I have my Ballistic Tables and I think I am pushing 7.42 moa adjustments @ 125 yards, Hell @ 200 yards I have my card at 18.85 MOA. My reticle has is mil dots.... I have 5 mills the best I can get without turning the dials is about 190 yards... So with anything for precision or direct combat usage..... AHAHAH thats HILARIOUS.

You need a CZ bolt gun. When I first got into shooting I looked at tricking out a 10/22, but found that the cost to do so would exceed the cost of a CZ 452 by far. My last CZ shot a 3 shot cloverleaf at 100 yards with Federal Automatch ammo. I had the trigger down to about 15 oz on that one, so it was a pure bench rig.

Exactice · Dec 27, 2017

AHHHh what the hell........ Since the thread got derailed would love to get back on topic.

1) Red dots vs Variable Scopes
2) Longrange scopes, Reticle preference
3) FFP vs SFP
4) Mil vs MOA (reticle and dials)

Preferences go!!!!

1) Red Dot for my ultra light. Anything with the intentions for the quickest and highest maneuverability. currently have a cheap "chevron" reticle as its easier to see and no worries about blooming
1a) Variable is on my longer 3gun style AR. 18" match 223wylde. The quick 1x power for anything withing 0-50 yards, the 6 power is great to 100yards + the reticle is a really interesting design, "Deltex" check it out dont like the BDC though its in 5moa increments.....

2) Longrange - The old standard was mill dots... But if you have not seen the new options, ACSS by Primary Arms is EPIC.... chevron, eliminated and Full BDC, Slightly confusing at first but once you get dialed in, its tough to argue its use. I came from the Leupold MK4s Mil dots.... so old school to new school was a challenge, but WAS WORTH IT... my Mildot master is usless now LOL

3) FFP vs SFP.... man, this was a tough one... Had both my Long range options in SFP (Primary Arms ACSS4-14) & FFP (Mueller 8-25x)....but found the Primary Arms, FFP nice when dialing back the power, with SFP there was too much a zero shift. I found this especially in my Variable from 1-6X BUT the shift was negligible on quick acquisitions of 0-50yards 2.5" drop was some what acceptable. I assume this is all preference.....

4) NOT Sure why or what the heck manufacturers where thinking Why would you do Mil dot reticle but MOA knobs? my 2 setups now are great, the Variable is MOA reticle with 1/2MOA knobs ranging and changing is straight forward. My Long range is Mil dots wit 1/10 mildot knobs.... Um... GENIUS??? look through, range it and make my adjustments if needed beyond my holds.... Are you all still using Mil dots with 1/4moa knobs??? LOL

Exactice · Dec 27, 2017

Rucker61 said:
You need a CZ bolt gun. When I first got into shooting I looked at tricking out a 10/22, but found that the cost to do so would exceed the cost of a CZ 452 by far. My last CZ shot a 3 shot cloverleaf at 100 yards with Federal Automatch ammo. I had the trigger down to about 15 oz on that one, so it was a pure bench rig.

I saw some of the CZ,KIDD etc.... hard part for me was justifying it up front as I knew I was not going to get too heavy into match 22lr nor competition. I got the ER shaw SUPER cheap..... I have seen the "Know your limits" guys with the CZ and it was amazing.... The only part "relative" to the topic..... are Spec Ops guys going to carry highly precision bench guns? NO right LOL they need something more durable? HAHAAH

braindrain · Dec 27, 2017

Exactice said:
AHHHh what the hell........ Since the thread got derailed would love to get back on topic.

1) Red dots vs Variable Scopes
2) Longrange scopes, Reticle preference
3) FFP vs SFP
4) Mil vs MOA (reticle and dials)

Preferences go!!!!

1) Red Dot for my ultra light. Anything with the intentions for the quickest and highest maneuverability. currently have a cheap "chevron" reticle as its easier to see and no worries about blooming
1a) Variable is on my longer 3gun style AR. 18" match 223wylde. The quick 1x power for anything withing 0-50 yards, the 6 power is great to 100yards + the reticle is a really interesting design, "Deltex" check it out dont like the BDC though its in 5moa increments.....

2) Longrange - The old standard was mill dots... But if you have not seen the new options, ACSS by Primary Arms is EPIC.... chevron, eliminated and Full BDC, Slightly confusing at first but once you get dialed in, its tough to argue its use. I came from the Leupold MK4s Mil dots.... so old school to new school was a challenge, but WAS WORTH IT... my Mildot master is usless now LOL

3) FFP vs SFP.... man, this was a tough one... Had both my Long range options in SFP (Primary Arms ACSS4-14) & FFP (Mueller 8-25x)....but found the Primary Arms, FFP nice when dialing back the power, with SFP there was too much a zero shift. I found this especially in my Variable from 1-6X BUT the shift was negligible on quick acquisitions of 0-50yards 2.5" drop was some what acceptable. I assume this is all preference.....

4) NOT Sure why or what the heck manufacturers where thinking Why would you do Mil dot reticle but MOA knobs? my 2 setups now are great, the Variable is MOA reticle with 1/2MOA knobs ranging and changing is straight forward. My Long range is Mil dots wit 1/10 mildot knobs.... Um... GENIUS??? look through, range it and make my adjustments if needed beyond my holds.... Are you all still using Mil dots with 1/4moa knobs??? LOL

My take.

Red dot vs variable. Depends entirely on what I am doing. If it’s mainly CQB or if I am also carrying a long gun then I will use my 10.3 upper with an Eotech. If I am in a place like Afghanistan or am not running as an assaulter then I will probably be carrying my 14.5 with a variable. Which as of right now an Elcan with a doctor on top but we are supposed to be getting some vortex 1-6 soon which should be a better option.

For long range. We run all Tremor 3s and I am a big fan. But any of the Horus reticles are good options.

FFP/ SFP. First focal plane all the way. Obviously with any Horus you need a FFP but even outside that I would never want a SFP. Most scopes even high dollar ones like Schmidt/Bender or night force the reticle doesn’t range true right at full power and backing off power to use a NVD makes it all that much worse. When I went through SFSC all our scopes were SFP and though we learned how to work through all those issues it just leaves that much more room for error. It also simply takes longer. Even more so when you have been up for a couple days.

Yeah all our scopes used to be Mil dot reticle MOA turrets. No idea why anyone would think that is a good idea.

beerftw · Dec 28, 2017

Exactice said:
60gr @ 900fps, gotta hit pretty hard.... cant disagree. I guess I would ask what is the purpose is?

I have an ER Shaw match 18" on a rugger 10/22, trigger work all done by me, I shoot CCI and Golden bullets (40gr 1200fps). The best I can do is about 1moa @ 100yards, I can stack @ 50yards no problem. But anything past 100yards is a crap shoot. The round tumbles too much from variables, I have my Ballistic Tables and I think I am pushing 7.42 moa adjustments @ 125 yards, Hell @ 200 yards I have my card at 18.85 MOA. My reticle has is mil dots.... I have 5 mills the best I can get without turning the dials is about 190 yards... So with anything for precision or direct combat usage..... AHAHAH thats HILARIOUS.

this is with 1200fps Ammo... So to say someone is shooting 22LR out to those distance with any point? Kind pointless. Its possible but again WHAT purpose does it serve? HAAHAH.... Man I love the fairy-tales some of these people come up with

Yups exactly...... So I can TOTALLY see the point of sub 22LR out of a suppressed pistol..... BUT.... as I noted in a previous post.... when to up close and personal work, a 9mm didnt do squat to people high as a kite... 8 shots of standard 9mm with no knock down power, they walked like zombies.. a suppressed 22lr.... is like a BB gun as well.... Unless you are taking head shots.... and lets face it..... that is ONLY in John Wick and Call of Duty... fairy-tales? Im sure many of the true operators here (I AM NO WHERE NEAR ANYTHING specialized) Know truths and abilities... and CENTER mass.....know if this shooting pinky toes, and guns out of peoples hands.... LOL

Truthfully if someone is really high on something, knockdown power means nothing, as people high on pcp would live missing half their brain snf even being shot through the heart. the human body knows to shut down when it can not survive any longer, but certain drugs override them, short of physically taking off limbs, they turn into a chicken with it's head cut off situation, they keep going until the boy runs out of oxygen and can no longer function.

as far as you quoting someone else on 22 accuracy, I have a 15/22 ar that fires 22lr, it is dead on enough I can shoot hairs at 100 yards, but past 100 it suffers the same issue you have, it tumbles, the bullet is too light to stay true at distances.

Exactice · Dec 28, 2017

beerftw said:
Truthfully if someone is really high on something, knockdown power means nothing, as people high on pcp would live missing half their brain snf even being shot through the heart. the human body knows to shut down when it can not survive any longer, but certain drugs override them, short of physically taking off limbs, they turn into a chicken with it's head cut off situation, they keep going until the boy runs out of oxygen and can no longer function.

as far as you quoting someone else on 22 accuracy, I have a 15/22 ar that fires 22lr, it is dead on enough I can shoot hairs at 100 yards, but past 100 it suffers the same issue you have, it tumbles, the bullet is too light to stay true at distances.

I hear you.... on the knockdown, again unless we are doing some splinter cell tom clancy head shot.... well..... yeah..... Even our standard FMJ, vs Hollow points are expanding rounds are a whole nother animal.

as for 22LR,I have been weary about accuracy especially 22lr. Guess my expectations were brought down when I watched the Know your Limits guys, I mean they have these targets out to only 30-50yards max They are aiming @ plates 2" down to 1/4". With highly developed 22LR rifles and match grade ammo.... Just cant accept accuracy up to or after 100 yards. I mean any highly tuned rifle should shoot 3/4MOA anything less is somewhat lucky. So for even high powered systems 1moa... pushing out to 500, we are still trying to accept 5" spreads..... for people to think they can shoot, 1" spreads @ 500 let along. 1" @ 1000 is just a fairy-tale.

Fenton Lum · Dec 28, 2017

beerftw said:
I bring up this topic because of people I see at the gun range, loaded with flashlights, lasers, a red dot, a bipod, extra mags on the buttstock etc. I know some gun control advocates complain about such accessories, as do fudds, and if you do not know what a fudd is, they are hunters that believe only the most basic hunting rifles should be legal, and anything outside hunting should be illegal.

In my opinion I laugh at people with quad rails loaded with accessories, as a rifle is only as usefull as the person wielding it, while more accessories can be a burden rather than a help. But I believe all accessories should stay legal, as well as mods and even things like pistol grips and collapsible stocks.

and obvious picView attachment 67226039

Anyone who will buy the notion that Don is of the people can be sold anything.

Exactice · Dec 28, 2017

braindrain said:
My take.

Red dot vs variable. Depends entirely on what I am doing. If it’s mainly CQB or if I am also carrying a long gun then I will use my 10.3 upper with an Eotech. If I am in a place like Afghanistan or am not running as an assaulter then I will probably be carrying my 14.5 with a variable. Which as of right now an Elcan with a doctor on top but we are supposed to be getting some vortex 1-6 soon which should be a better option.

For long range. We run all Tremor 3s and I am a big fan. But any of the Horus reticles are good options.

FFP/ SFP. First focal plane all the way. Obviously with any Horus you need a FFP but even outside that I would never want a SFP. Most scopes even high dollar ones like Schmidt/Bender or night force the reticle doesn’t range true right at full power and backing off power to use a NVD makes it all that much worse. When I went through SFSC all our scopes were SFP and though we learned how to work through all those issues it just leaves that much more room for error. It also simply takes longer. Even more so when you have been up for a couple days.

Yeah all our scopes used to be Mil dot reticle MOA turrets. No idea why anyone would think that is a good idea.

Man I envy you LOL.... we are limited to 16" OVL..... would love a 10.5" barrel system HAHAAh

how do you feel about the crosshairs and accuracy at longer ranges like 500yards +, one of the reasons why I got into the chevron reticle where I can still see the target. The reticle doesn't cover the target. especially at extreme ranges.

total agree on the FFP, sorry my POST was backwords on the scopes LOL, Primary Arms is FFP, Mueller is SFP.....thats what I meant.

the Mueller being able to range only @ 10x power while its 8.5-25x is weird... having to range @ 10x but the ability to crank to 25x yet the impact shaft was probably close to 1/2" thats huge!

braindrain · Dec 28, 2017

Exactice said:
Man I envy you LOL.... we are limited to 16" OVL..... would love a 10.5" barrel system HAHAAh

how do you feel about the crosshairs and accuracy at longer ranges like 500yards +, one of the reasons why I got into the chevron reticle where I can still see the target. The reticle doesn't cover the target. especially at extreme ranges.

total agree on the FFP, sorry my POST was backwords on the scopes LOL, Primary Arms is FFP, Mueller is SFP.....thats what I meant.

the Mueller being able to range only @ 10x power while its 8.5-25x is weird... having to range @ 10x but the ability to crank to 25x yet the impact shaft was probably close to 1/2" thats huge!

Yeah my unit uas a rather impressive arms room and we are given many tools to be more effective at our job.

As to the reticle like a Tremor or H58 it did take a little bit of time to get used to seeing through the reticle as at first it did seem to busy. After using it for a while I would hate to go back to something like a mil dot. Keep in mind we rarely dial for elevation or winds. Pretty much everything is holds. Both because it’s faster and more accurate. Generally the only time we dial is for extreme range when the elevation hold is far enough down in the reticle that you have to back the power of to much. Generally speaking past 1000 meters.

Yeag the ranging issue is sue is one of the major drawbacks of SFP scopes. Also we have discovered that in very few scopes was the reticle true at the power it was supposed to be true at which was full power for ours. Most needed to be backed off a bit and marked. Add in night time exhaustion and stress and it’s simply not as a reliable system

Exactice · Dec 29, 2017

braindrain said:
Yeah my unit uas a rather impressive arms room and we are given many tools to be more effective at our job.

As to the reticle like a Tremor or H58 it did take a little bit of time to get used to seeing through the reticle as at first it did seem to busy. After using it for a while I would hate to go back to something like a mil dot. Keep in mind we rarely dial for elevation or winds. Pretty much everything is holds. Both because it’s faster and more accurate. Generally the only time we dial is for extreme range when the elevation hold is far enough down in the reticle that you have to back the power of to much. Generally speaking past 1000 meters.

Yeag the ranging issue is sue is one of the major drawbacks of SFP scopes. Also we have discovered that in very few scopes was the reticle true at the power it was supposed to be true at which was full power for ours. Most needed to be backed off a bit and marked. Add in night time exhaustion and stress and it’s simply not as a reliable system

Its amazing how far I have dove into ballistics and holds. Again my Primary ARMS ACSS was my first true full BDC system. PA has also a RGrid System similar to the Tremors3....its a bit busy.... BUT.... like you stated once you get used to it.... MAN its awesome.

I have my date books setup for all loads...in addition I spent a good couple days at the range going from 55 up to 77gr.....(hitting everything between 62,64,68,69) Truing the barrels for loads..... once I got the numbers and loads dialed in... MAN the Grid system is on point and you are right....ITS SUPER efficient. Its funny....... I guess... I am of the old school reality. That 1 shot 1 kill is SO BULLSH!T...... cold bore anything over 500 yards with a 5.56 is LUCK heck same with our 7.62 systems.... More so with the old simple reticle systems...it was a lot of calculating, the mildot master that I had was like the latest and greatest back then LOL..... now we got PDA's and Grid Reticles.....

Shoot....wish I had those when I was in direct combat, would have been way more efficient.....

How do you feel about gun accessories

Exactice

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands

BretJ

Exactice

braindrain

BretJ

beerftw

proud ammosexual

Exactice

Rucker61

Exactice

Exactice

braindrain

beerftw

proud ammosexual

Exactice

Fenton Lum

Exactice

braindrain

Exactice