No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair[W:109]

Re: No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair

Media_Truth said:

Well you should talk to your fellow Conservatives in Texas. Write the State Fair organizers and tell them that they are misguided. Let me know their response. Personally, I think this same principal would well within our entire country. So I think these Conservatives in Texas are doing the right thing - banning guns.

Click to expand...

Oh I do. But here is the thing.. its about politics. And there ARE liberals and democrats in Texas. There are people with anti gun sentiments in Texas or who just don't know any better. . And so.. as a politician.. how do you appease these people and make it look like you are doing something to protect them? Well.. things like this. And fellows like yourself eat it up.

media truth said:

So I think these Conservatives in Texas are doing the right thing - banning guns.

Click to expand...

Of course rationally.. it makes absolutely no sense.

Of course.. the reverse happens with the right wing as well. It doesn;t matter that most illegal immigrants come here legally across the border and simply stay.. "WE WILL BUILD A WALL". Which of course will do absolutely nothing. but it makes certain people feel better.

Does it make you proud to know that you are on the same intellectual level as people that think a wall is going to stop illegal immigration?

Re: No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair

Visbek said:

OK, let's take a few scenarios.

1) A couple of people start fighting. One draws a gun. There's a big crowd, so if he or she starts firing, lots of innocent bystanders could get hit. That is a much bigger issue at a crowded fair than a gas station.

.

Click to expand...

Really.. so now we are going to play the "what if" game.

Okay.. I'll bite

1. The big crowd scatters because there is plenty of room to run. In the gas station.. bystanders can't get out of the way and so more a killed. (as if this actually happens but we will go with your scenario

2. Ummm if LAW ENFORCEMENT IS ALREADY THERE... then there will be no need to draw a gun and protect oneself. The truth is.. when the police arrive minutes later to collect statements from the surviving witnesses... its really a moot point as to who "drew first". Or second.

3. Right. you just pointed out the flaw in your logic. So some guy walks into the fair with a bunch of pistols and high capacity magazines and starts killing people. Do you really contend that the fellow that's intent on murdering as many innocent people as possible is going to be deterred by a sign that says "no firearms allowed"? surely you cannot be that obtuse?!?!?

So.. as you state.. that "closest that comes to stopping that".. is when there is an off duty cop. Why? BECASUE HE HAS A FIREARM. If other had a firearm.. they could defend themselves as well..

4. Sure.. of course firing a weapon indiscriminately in public is a CRIME.. and anyone intent on commiting a crime.. is again probably not going to obey your "no firearms" sign.

5. Yep.. alcohol is served as state fairs.. you can drink it in your homes.. in restaurants and you can buy it at gas stations. Doesn;t seem to be a problem for people carrying firearms. Because the vast vast vast americans who own firearms are responsible.

I'd say that is a few good reasons to think of the state fair as a very different type of situation than a retail store or gas station.

Click to expand...

Of course you would say that... but the reality as I showed you above.. is that your reasons ARE NOT logical. Not at all.

Re: No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair

jaeger19 said:

Really.. so now we are going to play the "what if" game.

Click to expand...

...yes, this is a common method for thinking about risk and reasons. The fact that you indulged in the same technique, of course, invalidates any protests against offering hypothetical scenarios.

1. The big crowd scatters because there is plenty of room to run. In the gas station.. bystanders can't get out of the way and so more a killed. (as if this actually happens but we will go with your scenario

Click to expand...

Uh, no. That doesn't even make sense.

I assume you're referring to the mass shooter -- you didn't bother to make it clear, which does not help your position. Anyway:
• There should be no doubt that at a gas station, a small store, or even a crowded restaurant, you're going to have fewer people than one of the busiest and popular state fairs in the US.
• You, uh, do know that around 3 million people attend the fair, over 24 days?
• The thing about crowds? It isn't always easy to scatter. There may or may not be room to run; you may get run into by someone who is fleeing; you may run into someone while fleeing; you might not even know where the firing is coming from.

A few crowd shots, by the way.

2. Ummm if LAW ENFORCEMENT IS ALREADY THERE... then there will be no need to draw a gun and protect oneself. The truth is.. when the police arrive minutes later to collect statements from the surviving witnesses... its really a moot point as to who "drew first". Or second.

Click to expand...

You're missing the point. Again:

- Homicidal shooter opens fire.
- Defensive shooter opens fire. (Assuming they weren't hit in the first round of firing.)
- Defensive shooter might hit innocent bystanders, especially if he or she has neither sufficient training nor experience to handle the situation, doesn't have a clear shot, can't properly identify the shooter, and so forth.
- If the homicidal shooter isn't incapacitated immediately, he may return fire, harming the defensive shooter. (And more bystanders, but that's the mass shooter's goal in the first place. Still, I doubt the people near the defensive shooter would appreciate the subsequent hail of bullets.)
- Anyone else -- security, LEOs, more armed civilians -- who charge into the fray and sees a person holding a gun won't know, as if by magic, whether that's the attacker or a defender. Needless to say, that isn't likely to produce a good outcome.

Some guy walks into the fair with a bunch of pistols and high capacity magazines and starts killing people. Do you really contend that the fellow that's intent on murdering as many innocent people as possible is going to be deterred by a sign that says "no firearms allowed"? surely you cannot be that obtuse?!?!?

Click to expand...

:roll:

Security uses metal detectors, they search bags, they search coolers, they've installed security cameras. They're not relying on the Honor System.

So.. as you state.. that "closest that comes to stopping that".. is when there is an off duty cop. Why? BECASUE HE HAS A FIREARM.

Click to expand...

No, it's because he or she is trained. They know what to do. Some overweight middle-aged civilian with a Rambo complex, who has never dealt with any sort of situation like this, could produce some very bad outcomes if they try to stop an active shooter.

5. Yep.. alcohol is served as state fairs.. you can drink it in your homes.. in restaurants and you can buy it at gas stations. Doesn;t seem to be a problem for people carrying firearms. Because the vast vast vast americans who own firearms are responsible.

Click to expand...

Yes, because no one in American drives while intoxicated, or gets into fights....

Again, there are 3 million people attending the fair. I'm sure that the overwhelming majority are good, responsible, normal people who want to relax and have a good time. The thing is, all it takes is one drunk idiot with a gun to make a real mess of things.

And of course, in this particular situation, if everyone is prevented from carrying a firearm, you're not going to need a firearm to defend yourself. What a concept.

Re: No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair

Visbek said:

And of course, in this particular situation, if everyone is prevented from carrying a firearm, you're not going to need a firearm to defend yourself. What a concept.

Click to expand...

Can someone without a firearm successfully harm someone smaller, weaker or slower than themselves? Can four ex-cons who have been lifting weights for 10 years fatally attack a solitary civilian with no guns?

Re: No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair

TurtleDude said:

so if someone wants to create carnage at the super bowl, are they going to obey a gun free zone policy?

Click to expand...

It appears they do every single year. Lol

Re: No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair

vegas giants said:

It appears they do every single year. Lol

Click to expand...

there has been firearm carnage at the super bowl every year?

Re: No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair

TurtleDude said:

there has been firearm carnage at the super bowl every year?

Click to expand...

There has not. because guns are not allowed.

Re: No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair

vegas giants said:

There has not. because guns are not allowed.

Click to expand...

Guns are allowed at gun shows and there has not been carnage even given they have far fewer security measures than the superbowl....just shows that guns at large events stops carnage..... My premise is just as easy to prove as yours.

Re: No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair

Media_Truth said:

Yeah, but then everybody would bring guns. And obviously, the law enforcement doesn't want everybody to have guns at the Texas State Fair. Why? Because it isn't safer. My guess is that they actually view the prospect of everybody having guns at the State Fair as a form of lunacy!

Click to expand...

Have they been allowed to bring guns in the past?

Re: No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair

Media_Truth said:

These are excellent points. No doubt about it.




This is a very true-to-life scenario. I hadn't even thought of that.



Yes, kids will probably get trompled to death.


Excellent points - all around!

Click to expand...

So people have been carrying now out in public for years, more than a decade...how many of these 'incidents' with the cc'ers doing harm have taken place?

Re: No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair

Rucker61 said:

Can someone without a firearm successfully harm someone smaller, weaker or slower than themselves? Can four ex-cons who have been lifting weights for 10 years fatally attack a solitary civilian with no guns?

Click to expand...

Are you for reals?

We're talking about the Texas State Fair. Not Ferry Avenue in Camden.

I mean, really. What movie did you take this scenario from? Do you really think that four violent ex-cons are going to gang up on one random person at the State Fair? Do you really think that if the one ordinary citizen can bring a firearm into the State Fair, that the ex-cons can't? Or that they can't possibly disarm the lonely defending citizen?

You do know that the whole gun self-defense thing is largely a myth, right? Using a firearm in self-defense does not reduce the chance of injury in those types of incidents. (https://mikethegunguy.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/hemenway-dgus.pdf) Given that we're talking about a huge state fair, you're better off running away, yelling, or taking other actions rather than drawing a gun.

Re: No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair

Visbek said:

Are you for reals?

We're talking about the Texas State Fair. Not Ferry Avenue in Camden.

I mean, really. What movie did you take this scenario from? Do you really think that four violent ex-cons are going to gang up on one random person at the State Fair? Do you really think that if the one ordinary citizen can bring a firearm into the State Fair, that the ex-cons can't? Or that they can't possibly disarm the lonely defending citizen?

You do know that the whole gun self-defense thing is largely a myth, right? Using a firearm in self-defense does not reduce the chance of injury in those types of incidents. (https://mikethegunguy.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/hemenway-dgus.pdf) Given that we're talking about a huge state fair, you're better off running away, yelling, or taking other actions rather than drawing a gun.

Click to expand...

You can tell when dealing with posters who are talking about issues they have no personal experience with. Citing Hemenway is just a gut buster given Soros funds him to come up with anti gun nonsense,

Re: No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair

Visbek said:

Are you for reals?

We're talking about the Texas State Fair. Not Ferry Avenue in Camden.

I mean, really. What movie did you take this scenario from? Do you really think that four violent ex-cons are going to gang up on one random person at the State Fair? Do you really think that if the one ordinary citizen can bring a firearm into the State Fair, that the ex-cons can't? Or that they can't possibly disarm the lonely defending citizen?

Click to expand...

"According to witnesses, a group of anywhere from 30 to 100 young black men descended on the Wisconsin State Fair last night, beating fairgoers and looting carnival games, in what witnesses said were racially-motivated attacks, Milwaukee's WTMJ reports."

Dozens Of Black Youths Attack Whites At Wisconsin State Fair - Business Insider

Video shows woman being tackled to the ground after 2 attacked with knife at Indiana State Fair | FOX59

You do know that the whole gun self-defense thing is largely a myth, right? Using a firearm in self-defense does not reduce the chance of injury in those types of incidents. (https://mikethegunguy.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/hemenway-dgus.pdf) Given that we're talking about a huge state fair, you're better off running away, yelling, or taking other actions rather than drawing a gun.

Click to expand...

From the CDC report "Priorities For Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence": "Self-defense can be an important crime deterrent,”says a new report by the Centers for Disease Control (CDC). The $10 million study was commissioned by President Barack Obama as part of 23 executive orders he signed in January.

“Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies,” the CDC study, entitled “Priorities For Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence,” states."

Re: No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair

TurtleDude said:

You can tell when dealing with posters who are talking about issues they have no personal experience with. Citing Hemenway is just a gut buster given Soros funds him to come up with anti gun nonsense,

Click to expand...

Prove it. You just post lie after lie. Prove it for once

Re: No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair

BretJ said:

Guns are allowed at gun shows and there has not been carnage even given they have far fewer security measures than the superbowl....just shows that guns at large events stops carnage..... My premise is just as easy to prove as yours.

Click to expand...

for over 100 years, mainly near Dayton Ohio and for the last decade or so, in southern Illinois, several thousand trap shooters gather for the Grand American trap shoot. millions of targets are shot. in some of the events, such as the big handicap event, the difference between a 100 straight and a 99 could be 65,000 dollars or more. If you play the options and all the purses, a 100 straight can make you over 100,000 dollars. So a dispute over whether a bird was broken or not is based on lots of money. Despite that, there has never been any shooter caused violence to the best of my knowledge. 6000 or more people walking around with 12G shotguns carrying at least 100 rounds of ammunition at all times. Millions of dollars of guns for sale-often private sales-everything from 20,000 Perazzi MX-8 and Beretta SO- series target shotguns to "high capacity" military style handguns, rifles, etc. Millions of rounds of ammunition.

if we believed the gun banners and gun haters, that place would be extremely dangerous for the 10 or so days it takes place. Guess what, its one of the safest places on earth

Re: No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair

Rucker61 said:

"According to witnesses, a group of anywhere from 30 to 100 young black men descended on the Wisconsin State Fair last night, beating fairgoers and looting carnival games, in what witnesses said were racially-motivated attacks, Milwaukee's WTMJ reports."

Dozens Of Black Youths Attack Whites At Wisconsin State Fair - Business Insider

Video shows woman being tackled to the ground after 2 attacked with knife at Indiana State Fair | FOX59





From the CDC report "Priorities For Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence": "Self-defense can be an important crime deterrent,”says a new report by the Centers for Disease Control (CDC). The $10 million study was commissioned by President Barack Obama as part of 23 executive orders he signed in January.

“Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies,” the CDC study, entitled “Priorities For Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence,” states."

Click to expand...

I suspect people who believe as Visbeck does would rather have those innocent white folks beaten up then being able to fight back. that after all is a main goal of gun control, disarm the victims

Re: No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair

Rucker61 said:

"According to witnesses, a group of anywhere from 30 to 100 young black men descended on the Wisconsin State Fair last night, beating fairgoers and looting carnival games, in what witnesses said were racially-motivated attacks, Milwaukee's WTMJ reports."

Click to expand...

:roll:

In that incident, a bunch of young black kids got into fights, and randomly assaulted people on the way out. They were unarmed. There was no evidence of racial motivation or animus, except (surprise!) white people assuming it. Untrained citizens carrying firearms would have only made the situation worse.

Video shows woman being tackled to the ground after 2 attacked with knife at Indiana State Fair | FOX59

Click to expand...

What the what?

A sole woman with a box cutter attacked someone at a state fair. She didn't go on a mass rampage, trying to murder hundreds of people. The outcomes would not have been better if an untrained civilian went all Rambo and pulled a gun on her.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that the dozens of state fairs which operate every year are deeply unsafe, because of one incident in 2011, and another in 2017? Are we really supposed to believe that violent threats lurk around every corner -- even as crime rates have been dropping for decades?

From the CDC report "Priorities For Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence": "Self-defense can be an important crime deterrent,”says a new report by the Centers for Disease Control (CDC). The $10 million study was commissioned by President Barack Obama as part of 23 executive orders he signed in January.

“Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies,” the CDC study, entitled “Priorities For Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence,” states."

Click to expand...

lol

Did you actually read that document?

The NRA shut down pretty much all funding for the CDC to do research into anything related to firearm harm and death years ago. In the wake of the Sandy Hook shooting, Obama issued an EO "directing federal agencies to improve knowledge of the causes of firearm violence, the interventions that might prevent it, and strategies to minimize its public health burden. One of these executive orders noted that “in addition to being a law enforcement challenge, firearm violence is also a serious public health issue that affects thousands of individuals, families, and communities across the Nation.”

I.e. it was Obama trying to build the case that, despite NRA resistance, the CDC should be treating firearm violence as a threat to public health, and should be researching the issue.

The passage you cited was one sentence from one paragraph from that 112-page document, which was arguing that more research into firearm self-defense was needed. The CDC hadn't done any research. It wasn't saying that the study was correct. It was pointing out that the research is all over the place, that it's often based in questionable self-reporting.

Oh, and that study the CDC mentioned? It's the Kleck study, which is rife with problems. E.g. Kleck's numbers suggest that crime victims were 3-4 times more likely to carry firearms than the offenders; it was conducted via phone survey, which deliberately asked for the male head of household, and parts of the US were oversampled. It's self-reported, which causes all sorts of issues, including people acting aggressively and justifying it as self-defense.

And guess what? The study I cited was one type of research the report said should be done, and it was published 2 years after that CDC report.

Re: No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair

Visbek said:

...yes, this is a common method for thinking about risk and reasons. The fact that you indulged in the same technique, of course, invalidates any protests against offering hypothetical scenarios.



Uh, no. That doesn't even make sense.

I assume you're referring to the mass shooter -- you didn't bother to make it clear, which does not help your position. Anyway:
• There should be no doubt that at a gas station, a small store, or even a crowded restaurant, you're going to have fewer people than one of the busiest and popular state fairs in the US.
• You, uh, do know that around 3 million people attend the fair, over 24 days?
• The thing about crowds? It isn't always easy to scatter. There may or may not be room to run; you may get run into by someone who is fleeing; you may run into someone while fleeing; you might not even know where the firing is coming from.

A few crowd shots, by the way.

You're missing the point. Again:

- Homicidal shooter opens fire.
- Defensive shooter opens fire. (Assuming they weren't hit in the first round of firing.)
- Defensive shooter might hit innocent bystanders, especially if he or she has neither sufficient training nor experience to handle the situation, doesn't have a clear shot, can't properly identify the shooter, and so forth.
- If the homicidal shooter isn't incapacitated immediately, he may return fire, harming the defensive shooter. (And more bystanders, but that's the mass shooter's goal in the first place. Still, I doubt the people near the defensive shooter would appreciate the subsequent hail of bullets.)
- Anyone else -- security, LEOs, more armed civilians -- who charge into the fray and sees a person holding a gun won't know, as if by magic, whether that's the attacker or a defender. Needless to say, that isn't likely to produce a good outcome.



:roll:

Security uses metal detectors, they search bags, they search coolers, they've installed security cameras. They're not relying on the Honor System.



No, it's because he or she is trained. They know what to do. Some overweight middle-aged civilian with a Rambo complex, who has never dealt with any sort of situation like this, could produce some very bad outcomes if they try to stop an active shooter.



Yes, because no one in American drives while intoxicated, or gets into fights....

Again, there are 3 million people attending the fair. I'm sure that the overwhelming majority are good, responsible, normal people who want to relax and have a good time. The thing is, all it takes is one drunk idiot with a gun to make a real mess of things.

And of course, in this particular situation, if everyone is prevented from carrying a firearm, you're not going to need a firearm to defend yourself. What a concept.

Click to expand...

I like your common sense approach. If you run for office, let me know. You'll have my vote.

Re: No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair

BretJ said:

Guns are allowed at gun shows and there has not been carnage even given they have far fewer security measures than the superbowl....just shows that guns at large events stops carnage..... My premise is just as easy to prove as yours.

Click to expand...

Don't have too many opposing views in that setting, do you? Do they serve alcohol? Do you think I'd get shot, if I held up a "Revoke Amendment 2" sign?

Re: No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair

Media_Truth said:

I like your common sense approach. If you run for office, let me know. You'll have my vote.

Click to expand...

that alone is grounds to vote for the other guy. Common sense would be that thugs who beat people up randomly ought to be shot.

Re: No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair

Media_Truth said:

Don't have too many opposing views in that setting, do you? Do they serve alcohol? Do you think I'd get shot, if I held up a "Revoke Amendment 2" sign?

Click to expand...

I saw a comment on face book awhile back that noted something that if "gun owners were as bad as gun haters claim, how come gun haters publicly state such things"

think about it

Re: No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair

Rucker61 said:

"According to witnesses, a group of anywhere from 30 to 100 young black men descended on the Wisconsin State Fair last night, beating fairgoers and looting carnival games, in what witnesses said were racially-motivated attacks, Milwaukee's WTMJ reports."

Dozens Of Black Youths Attack Whites At Wisconsin State Fair - Business Insider

Video shows woman being tackled to the ground after 2 attacked with knife at Indiana State Fair | FOX59





From the CDC report "Priorities For Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence": "Self-defense can be an important crime deterrent,”says a new report by the Centers for Disease Control (CDC). The $10 million study was commissioned by President Barack Obama as part of 23 executive orders he signed in January.

“Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies,” the CDC study, entitled “Priorities For Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence,” states."

Click to expand...

Good thing nobody had a gun. As it was, there were no deaths. Now they can round up the criminals, without any killing. Sounds like everyday news from Great Britain, Australia, Canada, Poland, and Japan.

Re: No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair

TurtleDude said:

I saw a comment on face book awhile back that noted something that if "gun owners were as bad as gun haters claim, how come gun haters publicly state such things"

think about it

Click to expand...

If we had ham, we could have ham and eggs, if we had eggs.

Re: No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair

Media_Truth said:

If we had ham, we could have ham and eggs, if we had eggs.

Click to expand...

I guess you couldn't understand the point. Shocked I am

Re: No Guns Allowed at the Texas State Fair

TurtleDude said:

I guess you couldn't understand the point. Shocked I am

Click to expand...

Although it's meant to be clever, it's a ridiculous question. Here's why. I am going to outline a mode of thinking that you use all the time. You used the word "gun owners" as a catch-all in a positive context. Now on the face, this would be all gun owners - the really bad guys, the good guys with the white hats, the impulsive killer who LOST HIS MIND, AND DIDN'T MEAN TO DO IT, the father whose child accidentally discharges a firearm, the mass murderer, the NRA supporter who is a good guy with a white hat, the NRA supporter who is a future mass-murderer, and many more.

When I stated the hypothetical situation at the gun show, you immediately use the "good guy with the white hat" gun owner definition. I won't test the theory, because of all the other gun owners. And you know who would scare me most, in that setting? --- the impulsive gun-owner who LOST HIS MIND, AND DIDN'T MEAN TO DO IT