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challenge - party movement based on gun control

Nuber said:
This post was in another thread and generated interest to extend the debate in a more appropriate forum - only the comment about not starting the debate in the incorrect thread was removed.

Let's use one of your examples of party movement, gun control, and place it on the ruler I was talking about. At the founding, gun control didn't exist. Guns were tools that were widely considered necessary for survival. Automatic weaponry didn't exist, nor did multi-shot weaponry.

Using the ruler analogy, the gun control issue was at the 6" mark. Since the founding, where would you place a marker on the ruler for the issue of gun control? To the left (closer to 1") or to the right (closer to 12")? I would suggest that such a mark would be placed at 3", but over time the liberal ideal has been to move it to 1" (no guns) and the conservative movement has been trying to preserve gun rights that we have had since the founding.

Using the ruler analogy, the gun control issue is not far right vs. far left, it is far left vs. center - historically speaking. The gun control issue is a perfect example of what I am talking about. legislation came about in the 1930's after over a century of private gun ownership and moved the marker to the left. Automatic weapons have now been banned for so long that many conservatives don't have a problem placing restrictions on gun sales, having registrations and background checks, or restricting certain kinds of guns from being manufactured. Both parties have now moved to the left on that ruler.

The mark on that ruler is now nowhere close to 6" because the liberal party tends to want more restrictions and the conservative party wants the status quo. The compromise of politics over time ultimately gives the liberal party what they want.

Please note that I am not trying to have a debate with you about gun control. My point is that both parties have moved to the left historically speaking (and my timeline is much longer than 2012).
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Well, number one, at the founding, guns were not just weapons of survival; they were predominately weapons of the militia system, so gun control was very much at work even then.

Think that this "banning" thing is just hyperbole: the far left has no more ability than the far right to get their goals met. Society at large, as has always been in this country will decide on what is best to do with guns as a whole. Gun laws are very old in this country, so this is nothing new. I think that ARs etc are on their way to being federally banned again along with banana clips and bump stocks etc. It's time for that.
 
Perotista said:
I don't know if you want to add this to your ruler. But I grew up in the 1950's and the only gun control law I can remember is that one had to have a federal permit to own a machine gun. Thanks largely to Al Capone and the Mafia and their hits in the 20's and 30's. I wasn't but 12 or 13 and it was legal for me to ride my bike into town and buy shells for my .410 at the Western Auto. One could buy guns through catalogs, no such things as registrations or background checks.

Just in my lifetime that mark of yours has really moved up the ruler. At least 9 if not a 10. It seems once a gun control law is passed, there is no rolling it back. That is unless the SCOTUS declares it unconstitutional.
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Am I wrong, or is it much easier to legally carry a firearm in almost all of the US than it was not so long ago? Restrictions have been rolled back, no?
 
jet57 said:
Well, number one, at the founding, guns were not just weapons of survival; they were predominately weapons of the militia system, so gun control was very much at work even then.

Think that this "banning" thing is just hyperbole: the far left has no more ability than the far right to get their goals met. Society at large, as has always been in this country will decide on what is best to do with guns as a whole. Gun laws are very old in this country, so this is nothing new. I think that ARs etc are on their way to being federally banned again along with banana clips and bump stocks etc. It's time for that.
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more nonsense. ARs won't be banned

Jet wants everyone in the USA to live under the idiotic bans the morons running california imposed on the sheeple out there
 
Rucker61 said:
Interesting claim. In the 2nd Amendment, where it states "the right of the people to keep and bear arms", is that not an individual right or is it a collet I've right? If not for the individual, for whom is that right protected?
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Its literately in the SCOTUS case you cited. Its clear that reading said opinion is beyond your capabilities.

US v Cruikshank said:
The Second Amendments means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress, and has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the National Government.
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It appears you also need to read up on incorporation

Incorporation Doctrine | Wex Legal Dictionary / Encyclopedia | LII / Legal Information Institute
 
Grand Mal said:
Am I wrong, or is it much easier to legally carry a firearm in almost all of the US than it was not so long ago? Restrictions have been rolled back, no?
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I really don't know. One could carry a gun anyplace around where I grew up if they had a mind too. No licence necessary. But I don't remember anyone doing so except when they were going hunting. There really was no need to. When we went into town, no one locked their car. Fact is when we left home for town, we didn't bother to lock our doors. Times change and so has society.

When I retired from the Army I was shocked when I was going to head back to the woods to go hunting and my dad told me I needed a hunting licence. On my dad's own property, it never used to be that way.
 
Perotista said:
I really don't know. One could carry a gun anyplace around where I grew up if they had a mind too. No licence necessary. But I don't remember anyone doing so except when they were going hunting. There really was no need to. When we went into town, no one locked their car. Fact is when we left home for town, we didn't bother to lock our doors. Times change and so has society.

When I retired from the Army I was shocked when I was going to head back to the woods to go hunting and my dad told me I needed a hunting licence. On my dad's own property, it never used to be that way.
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Yeah, but in most places you had to have a license and it was difficult to get one. I'm talking handguns.
I know what you mean about the other stuff. When I leave the island I have to remind myself not to drop the truck keys in the cup holder when I park. We have locks on our doors but we don't know where the keys are- nobody would hear a window breaking so it'd be pointless to lock the door.
 
Grand Mal said:
Yeah, but in most places you had to have a license and it was difficult to get one. I'm talking handguns.
I know what you mean about the other stuff. When I leave the island I have to remind myself not to drop the truck keys in the cup holder when I park. We have locks on our doors but we don't know where the keys are- nobody would hear a window breaking so it'd be pointless to lock the door.
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I'm not sure when all this licence stuff started. I suppose I was away in the army when it did. You could buy shotguns, rifles, handguns via a catalog if you wanted. Most of us would just go into town to the Western Auto and buy them there. No paper work or nothing. Sears and Roebucks always had around 20 pages of guns listed in their catalog.
 
Perotista said:
I'm not sure when all this licence stuff started. I suppose I was away in the army when it did. You could buy shotguns, rifles, handguns via a catalog if you wanted. Most of us would just go into town to the Western Auto and buy them there. No paper work or nothing. Sears and Roebucks always had around 20 pages of guns listed in their catalog.
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Yeah those were days weren't they. Go into the GI store in Salem ,Or. NOT GI Joes but an actual. Barrels full of WW2 Mauser's and Italian rifles all for peanuts. My best though M14 $50.00 and all the fmj 7.62x51 I could shoot. .05 cents apiece.
 
zsu2357 said:
Yeah those were days weren't they. Go into the GI store in Salem ,Or. NOT GI Joes but an actual. Barrels full of WW2 Mauser's and Italian rifles all for peanuts. My best though M14 $50.00 and all the fmj 7.62x51 I could shoot. .05 cents apiece.
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Yet, during that entire decade of the 1950's with no gun control laws, no registration, no background checks, no nothing. There was just one mass shooting the entire decade. Anyone and everyone could buy what ever gun or guns they wanted. Different society back then. This leads me to believe something terribly wrong has happened to our society. That has made our society a sick society.

That is where everyone should be looking, digging into, find out what went wrong. How in an era when one could buy whatever gun one wanted and however many, why no mass shootings as there are today? Today we have gun control laws up the ying yang and shootings continue to increase. What has made our society sick? It isn't guns.
 
Just for clarification, the ruler analogy represents the political spectrum. 6" on a 12" ruler represents the middle ground, or in this particular case the starting point of a certain issue. If you move to the left on the ruler toward 1", you are also moving left on the political spectrum toward more government control. Opposite side toward 12" moves you toward anarchy. This analogy is not mine, and for the life of me I can't remember where I picked it up - could have been some dude at caucus.

Kind of amazing to me. I haven't quite achieved 100 posts here, haven't started many threads, but this one "blew up" the most.

I guess if I want to pad my posting stats I should spend more time in the gun control forum.
 
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