How much damage could the Las Vegas shooter have done with bolt actions?

Let's say the Las Vegas shooter had some bolt action rifles with thousands of rounds of ammunition and he was a prior service military sniper or maybe competitive long range shooter and hunter. How many people could he have killed/wounded. The closest case I can find is the "Texas Tower Sniper" in 1966, Charles Whitman. He killed 16 people and wounded 31. I don't believe he had anywhere nowhere near the stockpile of ammunition, nor the massed number of active targets compressed into the specific location. Any opinions?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

Charles Whitman picked random targets that were not bunched up in a group! I did not look at the article, but I believe he had more time than the LV shooter (96min acc to Wikipedia). If CW had the modern equipment (can only guess/speculate/opine) he would have a higher count. We will never now. What a macabre post?!

RandomPoster71 said:

Let's say the Las Vegas shooter had some bolt action rifles with thousands of rounds of ammunition and he was a prior service military sniper or maybe competitive long range shooter and hunter. How many people could he have killed/wounded. The closest case I can find is the "Texas Tower Sniper" in 1966, Charles Whitman. He killed 16 people and wounded 31. I don't believe he had anywhere nowhere near the stockpile of ammunition, nor the massed number of active targets compressed into the specific location. Any opinions?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_minute

To answer your unspoken, but clear underlying point with this OP question?

Trying to limit the 2nd Amendment right to weapons that would be less than effective against those used by military and police forces apt to oppress our population is not an option. Regardless of how many fewer deaths one person armed might cause.

The right is not there to allow hunting, sport shooting, or home security etc., although all of those uses of this tool are still valid.

The right is there so that the PEOPLE can organize into militias so as to enable them to rise up in opposition to either home grown tyranny or external invasion.

The expectation is that each citizen should be capable of obtaining individual arms (not ordinance) the equal of any average infantryman of our, or any foreign military power.

Try again. :coffeepap:

Rexedgar said:

Charles Whitman picked random targets that were not bunched up in a group! I did not look at the article, but I believe he had more time than the LV shooter (96min acc to Wikipedia). If CW had the modern equipment (can only guess/speculate/opine) he would have a higher count. We will never now. What a macabre post?!

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My sentiments exactly. Well said !!!!

And now off to listen to Harry Chapin singing SNIPER.

The bolt action rifle probably wouldn't of created the smoke the semi auto did, thus not setting off the fire alarm making more difficult to locate were shots came from. The crowd probably wouldn't of reacted the same if he took his time and fired one or two shots every minute. I'm thinking we would see injured number a lot lower but death toll relatively unchanged.


But what if the shooter had a compound bow and used the explosive tiped arrows like Rambo does, what would of happened then? Or if he had photon torpedoes like Star Trek? If he had a StormTropper blaster from Star Wars well maybe no one would of been hit.

Chillfolks said:

If he had a StormTropper blaster from Star Wars well maybe no one would of been hit.

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Haha, not bad.

RandomPoster71 said:

Let's say the Las Vegas shooter had some bolt action rifles with thousands of rounds of ammunition and he was a prior service military sniper or maybe competitive long range shooter and hunter. How many people could he have killed/wounded. The closest case I can find is the "Texas Tower Sniper" in 1966, Charles Whitman. He killed 16 people and wounded 31. I don't believe he had anywhere nowhere near the stockpile of ammunition, nor the massed number of active targets compressed into the specific location. Any opinions?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

Click to expand...

when I was in Kenya 40 years ago or so, the man we hunted with-the late great Stephen Smith (did stunt doubles shooting real lions in Cowboy in Africa and Born Free) was an expert in bolt action speed shooting. Unlike most of his peers such as his brother in law Ian McDonald and others who favored the traditional British Side by Side express rifle, Smith, who came to africa as part of Montgomery's infantry, preferred bolt guns-especially the Winchester 70 and the Czech BRNOs. one day, while out looking for some camp meat (thompson gazelle or Impala) we came across a Masai teenager screaming in swahili, Steve told me to grab rifle since I was sitting in the what had been the machine gunners position on the old military bren carriers they used for transportation. Steve had a Winchester 458 across the dash board for use against dangerous animals. Several hyena had attacked the masai cattle and the young boy and his spear was no match against them and in this case shooting them was legal. I lined up one hyena shot it the bullet struck it in the rear and went up its ass and blew out part of its head. before I could shot the others, Smith and grabbed the 458, jumped out of the jeep and shot one that was running 50 or so yards a way broadside through the shoulder, he killed two more IIRC with shots that were less than 3 seconds apart and this was a guy who wasn't much more than 155 pounds firing one of the heaviest recoiling rifles on the planet. these were hyenas running at close to 45 MPH and weaving as they ran.

he told me when he was younger, in the 50s, he could shoot an SMLE 10 shot british bolt action much faster I didn't doubt him. a guy like that with a bunch of magazine fed bolt action combat rifles from a secure firing position would be hell to deal with

Chillfolks said:

The bolt action rifle probably wouldn't of created the smoke the semi auto did, thus not setting off the fire alarm making more difficult to locate were shots came from. The crowd probably wouldn't of reacted the same if he took his time and fired one or two shots every minute. I'm thinking we would see injured number a lot lower but death toll relatively unchanged.


But what if the shooter had a compound bow and used the explosive tiped arrows like Rambo does, what would of happened then? Or if he had photon torpedoes like Star Trek? If he had a StormTropper blaster from Star Wars well maybe no one would of been hit.

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How about this? what if he had one of these guns? (warning gratuitous ammo expenditures and movie casualties)

Captain Adverse said:

To answer your unspoken, but clear underlying point with this OP question?

Trying to limit the 2nd Amendment right to weapons that would be less than effective against those used by military and police forces apt to oppress our population is not an option. Regardless of how many fewer deaths one person armed might cause.

The right is not there to allow hunting, sport shooting, or home security etc., although all of those uses of this tool are still valid.

The right is there so that the PEOPLE can organize into militias so as to enable them to rise up in opposition to either home grown tyranny or external invasion.

The expectation is that each citizen should be capable of obtaining individual arms (not ordinance) the equal of any average infantryman of our, or any foreign military power.

Try again. :coffeepap:

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Modern liberals do not believe that countries can unfold like a dandelion. Even though it has happened hundreds of times. We are always a few sentences away from such a event.

RandomPoster71 said:

Let's say the Las Vegas shooter had some bolt action rifles with thousands of rounds of ammunition and he was a prior service military sniper or maybe competitive long range shooter and hunter. How many people could he have killed/wounded. The closest case I can find is the "Texas Tower Sniper" in 1966, Charles Whitman. He killed 16 people and wounded 31. I don't believe he had anywhere nowhere near the stockpile of ammunition, nor the massed number of active targets compressed into the specific location. Any opinions?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

Click to expand...

A Mad Minute event was held in Soknedal, Norway, on 30 May 2015 featuring some of the best stang shooters in the country.[3] The competition was called the "Mad Minute Challenge"[1], and was shot at a round 400 mm diameter target at 200 meters (2 mils/ 6.9 moa), making the target smaller than original. The winner, Thomas Høgåsseter, scored 36 hits. The average score, of 11 shooters, was 29.

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_minute

Quite sure one couldn’t keep up that mad minute for an extended period, but...

I think given how much we already know ( the advance planning and time he had) , it wouldn't take much for him to practice a bit to get to this point of bolt action speed.....and for those worried about accuracy, keep in mind that he was firing into a large, tightly packed crowd of thousands....I don't think the accuracy would have suffered any more than the accuracy one would have firing with a bump stop bouncing the sites around.

Yahoo is full of demonstrations like this...




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp0KGpBFG60

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tuBJtqbm9A

RandomPoster71 said:

Let's say the Las Vegas shooter had some bolt action rifles with thousands of rounds of ammunition and he was a prior service military sniper or maybe competitive long range shooter and hunter. How many people could he have killed/wounded. The closest case I can find is the "Texas Tower Sniper" in 1966, Charles Whitman. He killed 16 people and wounded 31. I don't believe he had anywhere nowhere near the stockpile of ammunition, nor the massed number of active targets compressed into the specific location. Any opinions?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

Click to expand...

Maybe 20 people; if he was good.

Anyone know how many were injured or killed by bullies, vs by trampling, or other non bullet related injuries?

KevinKohler said:

Anyone know how many were injured or killed by bullies, vs by trampling, or other non bullet related injuries?

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The trampling, falling being run over injuries were pretty substantial but I believe all the fatalities were ballistic induced

TurtleDude said:

The trampling, falling being run over injuries were pretty substantial but I believe all the fatalities were ballistic induced

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Then my guess would be, no real change. Decent shooter, firing into a crowd like that, with the time allotted....it was a turkey shoot.

KevinKohler said:

Then my guess would be, no real change. Decent shooter, firing into a crowd like that, with the time allotted....it was a turkey shoot.

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Pretty much.

Given the size of the crowd and how tightly packed they were, he didn't have to aim at anyone.....just the center mass of the crowd.

KevinKohler said:

Then my guess would be, no real change. Decent shooter, firing into a crowd like that, with the time allotted....it was a turkey shoot.

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closest thing to fish in a barrel I have seen-its why the bump fire spray and pray "worked" there

that thing would be tough to use in a two way shooting range

Captain Adverse said:

To answer your unspoken, but clear underlying point with this OP question?

Trying to limit the 2nd Amendment right to weapons that would be less than effective against those used by military and police forces apt to oppress our population is not an option. Regardless of how many fewer deaths one person armed might cause.

The right is not there to allow hunting, sport shooting, or home security etc., although all of those uses of this tool are still valid.

The right is there so that the PEOPLE can organize into militias so as to enable them to rise up in opposition to either home grown tyranny or external invasion.

The expectation is that each citizen should be capable of obtaining individual arms (not ordinance) the equal of any average infantryman of our, or any foreign military power.

Try again. :coffeepap:

Click to expand...

My real, SPOKEN question is exactly what I asked. I enquired as to other people's opinions on what type of damage the shooter would have inflicted if he were a trained marksman and had chosen bolt action rifles and boxes of ammunition. I personally believe that even in a worst case scenario, let's say an ex-Special Forces sniper succumbed to PTSD, lost it, and assembled his arsenal, he would have killed maybe 25 and wounded 25. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm certainly not an expert on the subject and I never claimed to be. That is why I am asking for other people's feedback. Maybe you should learn to take an honest question at face value.

KevinKohler said:

Anyone know how many were injured or killed by bullies, vs by trampling, or other non bullet related injuries?

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Why do you care? Seriously. Why does it matter. Everyone casualty there is on the shooter. You disagree?

Grand Mal said:

Why do you care? Seriously. Why does it matter. Everyone casualty there is on the shooter. You disagree?

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I don't think KevinKohler was attempting to shift the blame to anyone other than the shooter. I did not interpret his intent to mean that anyone that may have in a moment of panic in regards to mortal fear shoved or stepped on another individual deserved a portion of the blame.

RandomPoster71 said:

Let's say the Las Vegas shooter had some bolt action rifles with thousands of rounds of ammunition and he was a prior service military sniper or maybe competitive long range shooter and hunter. How many people could he have killed/wounded. The closest case I can find is the "Texas Tower Sniper" in 1966, Charles Whitman. He killed 16 people and wounded 31. I don't believe he had anywhere nowhere near the stockpile of ammunition, nor the massed number of active targets compressed into the specific location. Any opinions?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

Click to expand...

We'll never know but with those qualifications he could have killed just as many IMO probably more. Way less injured as far as injured by bullets though i would imagine. I don't know what the mix of injuries are bullets, trampling, injuries from fleeing etc.

Grand Mal said:

Why do you care? Seriously. Why does it matter. Everyone casualty there is on the shooter. You disagree?

Click to expand...

If there are trampling deaths, or a significant amount of injuries from trampling, it would be smart for event planners to have that information. If some asshole wants to copy cat this planners could possibly Save lives with better emergency mass exit strategy. I've heard rumors the concert area had some exits blocked after a certain time. If true that only added to confusion. This shooter is responsible for all of this but many things may be learned from it also.

Captain Adverse said:

To answer your unspoken, but clear underlying point with this OP question?

Trying to limit the 2nd Amendment right to weapons that would be less than effective against those used by military and police forces apt to oppress our population is not an option. Regardless of how many fewer deaths one person armed might cause.

The right is not there to allow hunting, sport shooting, or home security etc., although all of those uses of this tool are still valid.

The right is there so that the PEOPLE can organize into militias so as to enable them to rise up in opposition to either home grown tyranny or external invasion.

The expectation is that each citizen should be capable of obtaining individual arms (not ordinance) the equal of any average infantryman of our, or any foreign military power.

Try again. :coffeepap:

Click to expand...

Yah know, funny you profess this, make yourselves the heroes of your own story and yet... Gun owners haven't done much to stop infringment of liberties in America.

The constitution is pretty clear on warrant-less search and seizure and yet in a country where people are allegedly armed to stop these kinds of infringements, you have ridiculous civil forfeiture laws and warrant-less surveillance and wiretapping.

Yeah sorry, not ****ing buying it.

Chillfolks said:

If there are trampling deaths, or a significant amount of injuries from trampling, it would be smart for event planners to have that information. If some asshole wants to copy cat this planners could possibly Save lives with better emergency mass exit strategy. I've heard rumors the concert area had some exits blocked after a certain time. If true that only added to confusion. This shooter is responsible for all of this but many things may be learned from it also.

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Yikes.
I remember when the trampling deaths at a Who concert in Cinncinati taught us not to have 'festival seating' at rock concerts.
Now we're looking at escape routes in case of mass killers.