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There is nothing we can do...

ataraxia said:
I don't know. But I do know that no other civilized country in the world lives like this.
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If you mean that they're free from mass shootings, that turns out not to be the case:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers_(Europe)

Let's figure out what we are doing wrong and fix it. If everybody else can do it, we should be able to as well. Obviously you are not going to like any ideas I have. So do what you got to do to fix it. But what is no longer acceptable is the status quo. It's ridiculous, outrageous, and unacceptable. This is not making America great.
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Granting that some shootings just cannot be stopped, here are my suggestions:

My suggestion to reduce mass shootings like active shooter and domestic violence looks at three actions: prevention, isolation, intervention.

Prevention is the process to reduce the chance that a shooter will have a firearm in the first place. It's easier for DV than for active shooters, as the Lautenberg Amendment can be used to disarm anyone convicted of domestic violence or with a personal protective order sworn against them preemptively or actively. For Lautenberg to be effective, we need to educate potential victims, their legal support and local law enforcement. Potential active shooters don't have that history and with HIPAA restrictions find it easier to pass background checks. Prevention against rampage shooters is much less effective.

Isolation is the action of keeping a shooter separated from his victims. For DV, removal of the family to a safe house is the primary tool, unless the DV offender commits another crime or is caught violating a PPO before any homicide attempts occur, when he can be arrested. For active shooters, limiting access to schools or other targeted areas via channelized entry, metal detectors and similar passive measures are the first step. Being able to effectively lock down classrooms and other sub-geographies is also necessary.


Sometimes none of these work, or the area under attack isn't conducive to isolation, and that's where intervention is important. The FBI teaches Run, Hide, Fight when thrust into an active shooter situation, and data shows that the best way to fight is with a firearm. The current strategy of limiting ammunition magazine capacity to force reloads where the shooter can be physically restrained is untenable and hasn't been shown to be effective as an active response with a firearm. It suffers from fatal flaws: that the pool of potential victims includes someone that is brave enough to physically attack the shooter, that the brave person isn't among the first shot, that he or she is lucky enough to be in a close enough position during a reload and that he or she is physically capable of restraining a shooter. The biggest flaw, however, is that this tactic requires at least 10 shots to be fired with up to ten dead victims before there is a chance to stop the shooter. We've seen with both the Uber driver and Philly barbershop that CCW holders are not so restrained and can act quickly and effectively enough to stop a shooter with no innocent lives lost.
 
Rucker61 said:
1. Allow individual access to NICS so that private sales can utilize the background check process. Sen Coburn sponsored a bill that would be very effective for this.
2. Exempt CCW and LEO from background checks.
3. Arrest those who commit felonies while attempting to get guns. In 2010, 76,000 applicants were denied permission to purchase a firearm via the NICS and state systems. 39,000 of these were denied for previous felony convictions. Only 13 (13!) were convicted. We still have tens of thousands of people who committed a felony by lying on the Form 4473 and have a violent past free to find guns through illegal means. Given that a violent felon is looking for a gun, how many violent crimes could be prevented by arresting and incarcerating these felons? https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/bjs/grants/239272.pdf
4. Focus on the gun dealers and sellers who sell large amounts of guns to ineligible buyers. If the Brady Campaign knows who they are, then ATF knows who the major sellers are.
5. Mandatory sentences for those who use guns in acts of criminal violence. Stop plea bargaining away gun crimes. Thousands of felony gun cases are being dismissed in Cook County criminal courts | Chicago Reporter
6. Extend the legal possession geographies for CCW holders.
7. Go arrest the criminals who have guns illegally now - don't wait for them to commit a crime.
8. Fully punish straw purchasers.
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Thank you, well said.

A few years ago I became aware of a neighborhood felon with a record as long as my leg, who was in possession of several firearms while on probation. I tried to get him busted. It was a hell of a process getting the legal system to do anything about it, and the morons gave him enough of a head's up to hide the weapons somewhere. They bungled the case and he ended up getting 30 days, despite having a 10-year suspended sentence hanging over his head from the probation.

That, and several other related things, have kind of left me in despair that there's ****-all point in trying to get the law to do its job.
 
Rucker61 said:
If you mean that they're free from mass shootings, that turns out not to be the case:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers_(Europe)



Granting that some shootings just cannot be stopped, here are my suggestions:

My suggestion to reduce mass shootings like active shooter and domestic violence looks at three actions: prevention, isolation, intervention.

Prevention is the process to reduce the chance that a shooter will have a firearm in the first place. It's easier for DV than for active shooters, as the Lautenberg Amendment can be used to disarm anyone convicted of domestic violence or with a personal protective order sworn against them preemptively or actively. For Lautenberg to be effective, we need to educate potential victims, their legal support and local law enforcement. Potential active shooters don't have that history and with HIPAA restrictions find it easier to pass background checks. Prevention against rampage shooters is much less effective.

Isolation is the action of keeping a shooter separated from his victims. For DV, removal of the family to a safe house is the primary tool, unless the DV offender commits another crime or is caught violating a PPO before any homicide attempts occur, when he can be arrested. For active shooters, limiting access to schools or other targeted areas via channelized entry, metal detectors and similar passive measures are the first step. Being able to effectively lock down classrooms and other sub-geographies is also necessary.


Sometimes none of these work, or the area under attack isn't conducive to isolation, and that's where intervention is important. The FBI teaches Run, Hide, Fight when thrust into an active shooter situation, and data shows that the best way to fight is with a firearm. The current strategy of limiting ammunition magazine capacity to force reloads where the shooter can be physically restrained is untenable and hasn't been shown to be effective as an active response with a firearm. It suffers from fatal flaws: that the pool of potential victims includes someone that is brave enough to physically attack the shooter, that the brave person isn't among the first shot, that he or she is lucky enough to be in a close enough position during a reload and that he or she is physically capable of restraining a shooter. The biggest flaw, however, is that this tactic requires at least 10 shots to be fired with up to ten dead victims before there is a chance to stop the shooter. We've seen with both the Uber driver and Philly barbershop that CCW holders are not so restrained and can act quickly and effectively enough to stop a shooter with no innocent lives lost.
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Please run for Congress. They could use some common sense and reason in there. :)
 
camlok said:
Now we are getting somewhere. The US illegally invaded both Iraq and Afghanistan, Syria and Libya. All based on US lies. Those actions are the causes of the present actions under discussion. It's not at all nice it's happening to anyone but it is the reality.

Consider the half million Iraqi children murdered in the US planned genocide of the 1990s and the further half million adults.

Why can't people grasp that there will be some that are going to be so angry as to seek revenge?
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In the second paragraph you misspelled "half a million Iraqi children died while a sociopath dictator built more palaces with mony that could have helped feed them, a while allowing an embargo to go on that could have been avoided"
 
ataraxia said:
This is not what happens anywhere else in the world- at least not anywhere with a functional system of government. We are clearly doing something wrong. If you don't think the reason is that we are awash in highly effective lethal weapons, then what do you think the cause is, and how can we fix it?
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if you actually stow the hysteria and the desire to screw over conservative gun owners, you will find that the number of gun crimes committed by people who legally own guns is minuscule
 
Perotista said:
I think there is a lot to what you just said. A lot of truth and like me and everybody else, we can see what's happening, the symptoms, they are all over our society, we can't really define or know why the problem. It is probably a multitude of things and you touched on a few. What you said make sense to me.

Another problem that doesn't address the problem is every time something happens, be it a mass shooting, violence at a protest march or something, our political leaders try to utilize the event, the happening to advance their own political agenda instead of addressing the problem. Trying to find out what caused the problem and then fixing the problem.
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In a bunch of cases, the choice seems to be between unacceptably restrictive laws that don't necessarily help, and somehow changing the entire culture/society in a way that leads to people who might consider this don't, or if they do, they get help.
 
The Mark said:
In a bunch of cases, the choice seems to be between unacceptably restrictive laws that don't necessarily help, and somehow changing the entire culture/society in a way that leads to people who might consider this don't, or if they do, they get help.
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More or less to a strong man regime ala Stalin. He kept a lid on almost everything. Society and culture is an evolving thing. Nothing remains the same. We need to recognize what is good with society, keep it and recognize what is bad and get rid of it. Easier said than done.
 
Thorgasm said:
There is nothing we can do about these mass shootings. Society has decided that they are acceptable. The only thing society can agree on is to pray for the victims and their families when they happen. And that is quite literally, the least we can do.

Schools have shootings regularly. We can have moments of silence, but that doesn't seem to help. We aren't interested in preventing it from happening again.

Even if we were interested in preventing shootings, the toothpaste is out of the tube. There are so many guns in this country, even if the government decided to confiscate them all, it would be impossible. And don't worry, the government won't ever decide to confiscate guns. The gun control debate is over.

So here we are. Mass shootings are here to stay. They are a fact of life, in America.
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There is plenty we can do to reduce violence. The tool the violent use is irrelevant. Once we can get beyond blaming guns, then we can have a real debate about what is wrong with people and society.
 
Perotista said:
More or less to a strong man regime ala Stalin. He kept a lid on almost everything. Society and culture is an evolving thing. Nothing remains the same. We need to recognize what is good with society, keep it and recognize what is bad and get rid of it. Easier said than done.
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The reason it's hard is that things are never either/or, or good/evil. Very few things in life are black and white. How much should you work, and how much time should you spend with your family? How much should you always be perfectly honest with everyone, and when is it OK to exercise a little tact in what you say to your boss/spouse/friend, etc...? Should you do only work that you love, or should you only do the work that pays the highest, no matter how much you hate it?

It's that need for judgment between sometimes conflicting demands that makes life difficult. And how well, how intelligently, with how much prudence, you do it, makes all the difference. If you have a mindset that there is only one right pole in any of those conundrums, and any little movement or consideration of the opposing side is a slippery slope that you must avoid, then the consequences are often horrific. It's OK to compromise between and juggle some competing demands. This idea that if we regulate the purchase of dangerous weapons whose only purpose is to kill large numbers of people, to for example people with known mental health histories or terrorism ties, then it is a slippery slope to Obama coming and personally taking your hunting rifle away, is ridiculous, paranoid, and dysfunctional.
 
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jonny5 said:
There is plenty we can do to reduce violence. The tool the violent use is irrelevant. Once we can get beyond blaming guns, then we can have a real debate about what is wrong with people and society.
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There has always been lots of things wrong with lots of people in society. You're never going to get rid of social problems, jerks, or psychopaths. It's OK to have some basic regulations on what military style weapons they can purchase as one of the things you do to maintain a more safe and functional society.
 
jonny5 said:
There is plenty we can do to reduce violence. The tool the violent use is irrelevant. Once we can get beyond blaming guns, then we can have a real debate about what is wrong with people and society.
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sadly so many Democrat politicians have to utilize gun control as a way of dodging charges they coddle violent criminals. and they cannot forgive the NRA for pointing out what a stupid position that is-pretending that disarming honest people will prevent crimes from being committed by those who disobey all sorts of laws including ones that say felons cannot own guns
 
ataraxia said:
There has always been lots of things wrong with lots of people in society. You're never going to get rid of social problems, jerks, or psychopaths. It's OK to have some basic regulations on what military style weapons they can purchase as one of the things you do to maintain a more safe and functional society.
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what is a military style weapon? and what sort of weapons were the founders thinking of when they wrote the second?
 
ataraxia said:
There has always been lots of things wrong with lots of people in society. You're never going to get rid of social problems, jerks, or psychopaths. It's OK to have some basic regulations on what military style weapons they can purchase as one of the things you do to maintain a more safe and functional society.
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The pro gun psychos have their politicians bought and paid for. We need to get money out of politics first
 
Superfly said:
Oh, I don't know -- some kind of common sense gun legislation? Something? ANYTHING?

But no - instead of trying to make our country safer, we are going in the other direction, by trying to relax laws allowing mentally ill people to obtain a firearm.

Just what we need!
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actually there is quite a bit of gun regulation. I'm not sure if it is all "common sense." But a lot of it is.

So what more do we need what would have stopped this man from doing what he did?
 
CLAX1911 said:
actually there is quite a bit of gun regulation. I'm not sure if it is all "common sense." But a lot of it is.

So what more do we need what would have stopped this man from doing what he did?
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Now that's funny
 
TurtleDude said:
what is a military style weapon? and what sort of weapons were the founders thinking of when they wrote the second?
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A bolt action, wooden stocked rifle in an intermediate caliber. The M1903 Springfield rifle I learned the manual of arms on in high school was one such military style weapon, serving in various roles in WWI, WWII, the Korean War and the Vietnam War. The US military purchased over one million of them and it's rumored that some of them, and possibly other bolt action wooden stocked military style rifles, remain in civilian hands today, much to the chagrin of white tail deer across this country. We should do something.
 
CLAX1911 said:
actually there is quite a bit of gun regulation. I'm not sure if it is all "common sense." But a lot of it is.

So what more do we need what would have stopped this man from doing what he did?
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TSA at the front desk of every hotel.
 
Rucker61 said:
TSA at the front desk of every hotel.
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yeah and a ban on hammers-he used a hammer to knock out the windows so he could shoot through the empty space
 
TurtleDude said:
yeah and a ban on hammers-he used a hammer to knock out the windows so he could shoot through the empty space
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Well maybe we should make it illegal to sell ammo that isn't a Tracer round. I mean they used sound to locate it but have much faster could they have found them if the bullets for burning bright phosphorus colors.
 
ataraxia said:
There has always been lots of things wrong with lots of people in society. You're never going to get rid of social problems, jerks, or psychopaths. It's OK to have some basic regulations on what military style weapons they can purchase as one of the things you do to maintain a more safe and functional society.
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As I said, once we get past this obsession with blaming the weapon, then we can a debate about the causes of violence and actually accomplish something. But then we would have to move beyond using everything as a wedge issue to gain power. Im not sure thats possible.
 
Rucker61 said:
TSA at the front desk of every hotel.
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Actually while I dont support it, a police state would solve this. But to keep it from being abused, the govt has to be equally watched. We know what theyre doing, they know what we're doing. Everyone can buy as many and whatever type of gun they want, but the govt will know 24/7 who has them, why, and where they are. Likewise, the public will know 24/7 how this information is being used.

The price of security is your privacy and freedom.
 
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