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There is nothing we can do...

I am fine with alcohol control. We already have it

As we do for firearms. You don't think we can do better? That always seems to be your meme. Perhaps limitions on how much you can purchase over a certain time frame? Perhaps restrict strength? You are for similar gun restrictions. Would save way more lives and prevent far more tragedies.
 
I have nothing to be embarrassed about. You don't like position fine. No need to hash it out with you and have you keep calling me stupid. See no need to continue.

No **** about criminals with guns. Here all this this time I though when you get out jail they give you 50 bus fare and a Glock. You sir can talk down to someone else I am done with talking in circles it's accomplished nothing

spent 30 years as a prosecutor-the last 24 being federal. guess what-criminals who kill and rob others don't obey gun laws. we can already nail them for being felons in possession and committing felonies with a firearm-that's serious federal time. if they are willing to face those charges, why are they going to obey your stupid magazine limit?

oh you think if those magazines are banned for EVERYONE not even hard core criminals will be able to get them?

in the height of the clinton gun ban, I had a friend in the gulf come back with a bunch M16 30 round magazines. they had lost all the anodization on them and the company armorer was going to chuck them. so the Lt asked the armorer if he could have them for practice and the armor said "Sure Lt". he gave me a bag of them. do you know how many 30 round M16 magazines the military "loses" each year
 
Mass murders are a statistical anomaly. Suicides make up half of all guns deaths in the US, better mental health care, with a focus on destigamitizing depression and psychosis, would go a long way to reducing that, and would have an impact on mass shootings as well. Better education, increased economic opportunity and redressing systemic inequality in poor communities would also prevent a lot of poverty and gang driven crime that makes up a large part of gun murders.

Banning guns is a band-aid solution that would do nothing for the majority of gun crimes, and is unrealistic anyway.
 
Mass murders are a statistical anomaly. Suicides make up half of all guns deaths in the US, better mental health care, with a focus on destigamitizing depression and psychosis, would go a long way to reducing that, and would have an impact on mass shootings as well. Better education, increased economic opportunity and redressing systemic inequality in poor communities would also prevent a lot of poverty and gang driven crime that makes up a large part of gun murders.

Banning guns is a band-aid solution that would do nothing for the majority of gun crimes, and is unrealistic anyway.

2/3rds actually Spud
 
Nothing will or would stop someone who wants to do this. Best we can hope for is making it difficult in the future for others.

At the cost of depriving law-abiding people that might need them for defense? Which future speculation are you going with?
 
Anyone with a full sized handgun that is a double stack. Well more like 15 plus one but including cops a whole lot.

Well I carry it but I sure as hell hope I never have to use it. If I do...it wont be illegally.

17+1
 
Yep, enforcement of such a silly thing would require someone stopping to check folks to see how many rounds were inserted into their perfectly legal "private property" magazine to be sure that it did not exceed the "in public" capacity limit. This is just about as stupid as having halogen bulbs legally sold but stamped "for off road use only" that exceed the DOT (high beam) limit for on road use. I doubt that anyone was ever ticketed for violating this law (I have even passed a state inspection with these "illegal" bulbs) but they can say that they did something to enhance public safety.

My S&W M&P carries 17 bullets. Would I be complying with the law if I only loaded 10 bullets?

Would I be subject to random checks to 'count'? :(
 
Now come off it into public property then limits are in effect.

Not sure if you've considered this, or perhaps have and just dismissed it:

--Even the police miss in shootings. They need the extra bullets...why dont we?

--Unlike TV & the movies, 1 shot rarely STOPS an attacker. Even if they die later, they often keep on shooting, fighting, etc. and kill you. So multiple hits are needed, just like the police are trained (2 to center mass, 1 to the head, for example, standard procedure).

--I have been confronted by 3 men in a parking garage. Multiple attackers is not unusual. The predator loves to stack his advantage. So...considering that anyone (including the cops) may miss during a stress-filled shoot out...why should I allow others to put me at a disadvantage with too few bullets?
 
There are probably many places we went wrong.
I don't know how to define it though.

Racism remained, divisions grew, propaganda became media, media became propaganda, science became enemy, reality became optional, all while things got better for some and not for others, which created more divisions, and those who complained were redirected at the propaganda for answers, which made the reality less real and the propaganda reality.

Or something.

I think there is a lot to what you just said. A lot of truth and like me and everybody else, we can see what's happening, the symptoms, they are all over our society, we can't really define or know why the problem. It is probably a multitude of things and you touched on a few. What you said make sense to me.

Another problem that doesn't address the problem is every time something happens, be it a mass shooting, violence at a protest march or something, our political leaders try to utilize the event, the happening to advance their own political agenda instead of addressing the problem. Trying to find out what caused the problem and then fixing the problem.
 
Mass murders are a statistical anomaly. Suicides make up half of all guns deaths in the US, better mental health care, with a focus on destigamitizing depression and psychosis, would go a long way to reducing that, and would have an impact on mass shootings as well. Better education, increased economic opportunity and redressing systemic inequality in poor communities would also prevent a lot of poverty and gang driven crime that makes up a large part of gun murders.

Banning guns is a band-aid solution that would do nothing for the majority of gun crimes, and is unrealistic anyway.

Maybe better mental health care would help, though, often the perps had not been identified as sick or had been diagnosed to be harmless. This is true in the USA and in Europe. And in Europe I believe to remember that the social position of mass killers has been rather okay. But I think you are right that forbidding guns is all about reflex and nothing to do with research.
 
" The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violate the Second Amendment . The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition—in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute—would fail constitutional muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional."

Gun owners can't be force to keep guns locked up at all times.

Thank you
 
spent 30 years as a prosecutor-the last 24 being federal. guess what-criminals who kill and rob others don't obey gun laws. we can already nail them for being felons in possession and committing felonies with a firearm-that's serious federal time. if they are willing to face those charges, why are they going to obey your stupid magazine limit?

oh you think if those magazines are banned for EVERYONE not even hard core criminals will be able to get them?

in the height of the clinton gun ban, I had a friend in the gulf come back with a bunch M16 30 round magazines. they had lost all the anodization on them and the company armorer was going to chuck them. so the Lt asked the armorer if he could have them for practice and the armor said "Sure Lt". he gave me a bag of them. do you know how many 30 round M16 magazines the military "loses" each year

This is not what happens anywhere else in the world- at least not anywhere with a functional system of government. We are clearly doing something wrong. If you don't think the reason is that we are awash in highly effective lethal weapons, then what do you think the cause is, and how can we fix it?
 
Statistically, your odds of being killed in a mass shooting event are extremely unlikely. You're vastly more likely to die in a car crash, and more likely still to die of medical malpractice. You're more likely to be killed in the course of an ordinary crime, also.



It's bad, but let's retain some perspective.

Yes. I say the same thing when it comes to terrorist attacks.
 
How shocking, Bucky chimed in with something even uglier to say, tarring me by association with slavery.

Perhaps next I'll be accused of eating children.


Hey Bucky.... they have mass shootings in European countries with strict gun control too. Google Charlie Hebdo.

Why did you eat those poor children?
 
Dead is indeed dead.

All these deaths are sad indeed, but they pale into insignificance when compared to the deaths the US has caused around the world since WWII.

The more recent Europe/Americas/Asia deaths have a direct and close connection to the deaths the US has caused in the recent past in other countries, the ones pretty much everyone could name.

Let me be clear. No taking of human life is ever justified by terrorism or illegal invasions.

But how can anyone with a functioning brain not see the connection between the massive numbers of US murders in the Middle East, Africa, Far East mostly directed at Muslims and the reprisals that have occurred for years now?

Many westerners felt that reprisals against Iraq and Afghanistan were justified, when they were based on complete lies but these same westerners cannot accord the same feeling to others who have been wronged by US/UK/... illegal and immoral actions.

We get it. You hate the United States.
 
This is not what happens anywhere else in the world- at least not anywhere with a functional system of government. We are clearly doing something wrong. If you don't think the reason is that we are awash in highly effective lethal weapons, then what do you think the cause is, and how can we fix it?

If the primary cause of gun violence is that we're "awash in highly effective lethal weapons", what's your solution to get us "unawashed"?
 
If the primary cause of gun violence is that we're "awash in highly effective lethal weapons", what's your solution to get us "unawashed"?

I was asking you that question. Clearly you reject any proposal that I have offered. So what is yours?

Or are you totally OK with the status quo with being the only country in the civilized world living in banana Republic conditions?
 
I was asking you that question. Clearly you reject any proposal that I have offered. So what is yours?

Or are you totally OK with the status quo with being the only country in the civilized world living in banana Republic conditions?

1. Allow individual access to NICS so that private sales can utilize the background check process. Sen Coburn sponsored a bill that would be very effective for this.
2. Exempt CCW and LEO from background checks.
3. Arrest those who commit felonies while attempting to get guns. In 2010, 76,000 applicants were denied permission to purchase a firearm via the NICS and state systems. 39,000 of these were denied for previous felony convictions. Only 13 (13!) were convicted. We still have tens of thousands of people who committed a felony by lying on the Form 4473 and have a violent past free to find guns through illegal means. Given that a violent felon is looking for a gun, how many violent crimes could be prevented by arresting and incarcerating these felons? https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/bjs/grants/239272.pdf
4. Focus on the gun dealers and sellers who sell large amounts of guns to ineligible buyers. If the Brady Campaign knows who they are, then ATF knows who the major sellers are.
5. Mandatory sentences for those who use guns in acts of criminal violence. Stop plea bargaining away gun crimes. Thousands of felony gun cases are being dismissed in Cook County criminal courts | Chicago Reporter
6. Extend the legal possession geographies for CCW holders.
7. Go arrest the criminals who have guns illegally now - don't wait for them to commit a crime.
8. Fully punish straw purchasers.
 
I was asking you that question. Clearly you reject any proposal that I have offered. So what is yours?

Or are you totally OK with the status quo with being the only country in the civilized world living in banana Republic conditions?

My suggestion to reduce mass shootings like active shooter and domestic violence looks at three actions: prevention, isolation, intervention.

Prevention is the process to reduce the chance that a shooter will have a firearm in the first place. It's easier for DV than for active shooters, as the Lautenberg Amendment can be used to disarm anyone convicted of domestic violence or with a personal protective order sworn against them preemptively or actively. For Lautenberg to be effective, we need to educate potential victims, their legal support and local law enforcement. Potential active shooters don't have that history and with HIPAA restrictions find it easier to pass background checks. Prevention against rampage shooters is much less effective.

Isolation is the action of keeping a shooter separated from his victims. For DV, removal of the family to a safe house is the primary tool, unless the DV offender commits another crime or is caught violating a PPO before any homicide attempts occur, when he can be arrested. For active shooters, limiting access to schools or other targeted areas via channelized entry, metal detectors and similar passive measures are the first step. Being able to effectively lock down classrooms and other sub-geographies is also necessary.


Sometimes none of these work, or the area under attack isn't conducive to isolation, and that's where intervention is important. The FBI teaches Run, Hide, Fight when thrust into an active shooter situation, and data shows that the best way to fight is with a firearm. The current strategy of limiting ammunition magazine capacity to force reloads where the shooter can be physically restrained is untenable and hasn't been shown to be effective as an active response with a firearm. It suffers from fatal flaws: that the pool of potential victims includes someone that is brave enough to physically attack the shooter, that the brave person isn't among the first shot, that he or she is lucky enough to be in a close enough position during a reload and that he or she is physically capable of restraining a shooter. The biggest flaw, however, is that this tactic requires at least 10 shots to be fired with up to ten dead victims before there is a chance to stop the shooter. We've seen with both the Uber driver and Philly barbershop that CCW holders are not so restrained and can act quickly and effectively enough to stop a shooter with no innocent lives lost.
 
" The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violate the Second Amendment . The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition—in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute—would fail constitutional muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional."

Gun owners can't be force to keep guns locked up at all times.

Question- MI person, threat to themselves-others- documented - can a Court order that person not have access to weapons?
If yes next question.
If that person is at home where weapons are readily accessible, is the owner (parents-Guardian) required to secure weapons?

Some clarifications on where I stand
I do not support gun bans, I do not see how magazine sizes would be anything but unworkable and is just a feel good measure.
I do not support registering weapons.It is far to costly for what information is gained. Money can be spent elsewhere with a better return.
 
Question- MI person, threat to themselves-others- documented - can a Court order that person not have access to weapons?
If yes next question.
If that person is at home where weapons are readily accessible, is the owner (parents-Guardian) required to secure weapons?

I'm claim no expertise and little knowledge with regards to regulating possession of firearm by the mentally ill who are covered by the restrictions in 18 USC 922. I did find this, however, which may answer your questions:

http://www.ncsl.org/research/civil-...session-of-a-firearm-by-the-mentally-ill.aspx
 
My suggestion to reduce mass shootings like active shooter and domestic violence looks at three actions: prevention, isolation, intervention.

Prevention is the process to reduce the chance that a shooter will have a firearm in the first place. It's easier for DV than for active shooters, as the Lautenberg Amendment can be used to disarm anyone convicted of domestic violence or with a personal protective order sworn against them preemptively or actively. For Lautenberg to be effective, we need to educate potential victims, their legal support and local law enforcement. Potential active shooters don't have that history and with HIPAA restrictions find it easier to pass background checks. Prevention against rampage shooters is much less effective.

Isolation is the action of keeping a shooter separated from his victims. For DV, removal of the family to a safe house is the primary tool, unless the DV offender commits another crime or is caught violating a PPO before any homicide attempts occur, when he can be arrested. For active shooters, limiting access to schools or other targeted areas via channelized entry, metal detectors and similar passive measures are the first step. Being able to effectively lock down classrooms and other sub-geographies is also necessary.


Sometimes none of these work, or the area under attack isn't conducive to isolation, and that's where intervention is important. The FBI teaches Run, Hide, Fight when thrust into an active shooter situation, and data shows that the best way to fight is with a firearm. The current strategy of limiting ammunition magazine capacity to force reloads where the shooter can be physically restrained is untenable and hasn't been shown to be effective as an active response with a firearm. It suffers from fatal flaws: that the pool of potential victims includes someone that is brave enough to physically attack the shooter, that the brave person isn't among the first shot, that he or she is lucky enough to be in a close enough position during a reload and that he or she is physically capable of restraining a shooter. The biggest flaw, however, is that this tactic requires at least 10 shots to be fired with up to ten dead victims before there is a chance to stop the shooter. We've seen with both the Uber driver and Philly barbershop that CCW holders are not so restrained and can act quickly and effectively enough to stop a shooter with no innocent lives lost.


So where were all the "good guys with a gun" in this shooting? This is Nevada, after all. Why did they still have to rely on big bad gubmint to help out?
 
So where were all the "good guys with a gun" in this shooting? This is Nevada, after all. Why did they still have to rely on big bad gubmint to help out?

Not that I support the claim that "only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun", but I will stick with "Sometimes none of these work". Sometimes prevention, isolation and intervention just don't work, especially when an attacker meticulously plans his attack.

What would the casualty level be if he had crashed one of his planes with a full load of fuel and a couple hundred gallons of avgas in the passenger compartment into the crowd?
 
Not that I support the claim that "only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun", but I will stick with "Sometimes none of these work". Sometimes prevention, isolation and intervention just don't work, especially when an attacker meticulously plans his attack.

What would the casualty level be if he had crashed one of his planes with a full load of fuel and a couple hundred gallons of avgas in the passenger compartment into the crowd?

I don't know. But I do know that no other civilized country in the world lives like this. Let's figure out what we are doing wrong and fix it. If everybody else can do it, we should be able to as well. Obviously you are not going to like any ideas I have. So do what you got to do to fix it. But what is no longer acceptable is the status quo. It's ridiculous, outrageous, and unacceptable. This is not making America great.
 
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