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Opinions please: lay down or run?

Lursa

Lursa

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I heard people in the media (so-called experts) and people being interviewed that were in the crowd in LV during the shooting last nite.

The main recommendation seemed to be that the best chance of survival was to hunker down flat on the ground. In the open.

I'm sure I didnt hear all recommendations but would this really be better than remaining a moving target and moving towards cover or even concealment?
 
Lursa said:
I heard people in the media (so-called experts) and people being interviewed that were in the crowd in LV during the shooting last nite.

The main recommendation seemed to be that the best chance of survival was to hunker down flat on the ground. In the open.

I'm sure I didnt hear all recommendations but would this really be better than remaining a moving target and moving towards cover or even concealment?
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when the shooter is firing from an elevated platform, lying flat on the ground is one of the worst things you can do.
 
A bullet can still daily penetrate a person lying on the ground. There's a term used for that, it's called "sitting duck."

Additionally the shooter shooting from a high angle did more damage to flattened people than if he had been at ground level and they were lying flat where it was difficult for him to see them.
 
countryboy said:
when the shooter is firing from an elevated platform, lying flat on the ground is one of the worst things you can do.
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Yes, and it is very unlikely that they could tell where the shoots were coming from for a long time...a terror attack could not have been planned better....which has to make you wonder if it was DAESH right?
 
Lursa said:
I heard people in the media (so-called experts) and people being interviewed that were in the crowd in LV during the shooting last nite.

The main recommendation seemed to be that the best chance of survival was to hunker down flat on the ground. In the open.

I'm sure I didnt hear all recommendations but would this really be better than remaining a moving target and moving towards cover or even concealment?
Click to expand...



Depends on a lot of things.

In this case he had plunging fire, which makes cover or prone a bit problematic. Second, knowing where the fire is coming from can be difficult to determine, especially under such circumstances.

If you had something that could give you partial cover or even concealment from the shooter, taking cover and laying prone behind it is best.

Out in the open against ground level fire from a distance, prone helps... against plunging fire, not so much without some cover. Running might be better in that case... but then consider you're in a crowd with a lot of people running... you could get trampled whether you lay flat or run.


No good answers really, but run or prone would be better than just standing there.
 
It seems very non-intuitive to me to just lay down but I wondered if they were saying it because if you were 'playing dead,' the shooter would not focus on you.
 
Goshin said:
Depends on a lot of things.

In this case he had plunging fire, which makes cover or prone a bit problematic. Second, knowing where the fire is coming from can be difficult to determine, especially under such circumstances.

If you had something that could give you partial cover or even concealment from the shooter, taking cover and laying prone behind it is best.

Out in the open against ground level fire from a distance, prone helps... against plunging fire, not so much without some cover. Running might be better in that case... but then consider you're in a crowd with a lot of people running... you could get trampled whether you lay flat or run.


No good answers really, but run or prone would be better than just standing there.
Click to expand...

In this case given the angle of attack and not knowing where the shooter is that is a very iffy conclusion. Maybe you stand there and put 100% of your brain on trying to find the shooter, and then act accordingly.
 
Staying stationary, especially out in the open, is about the worst option. Add to that the fact that if you were on the ground in that kind of situation you'd also be more likely to be trampled and I'd chalk that option up as "not only no but hell no!".

The biggest problem people will have in a situation like the Vegas incident is that they likely won't have any idea where the gunfire is coming from. Because of that you'll have people running in all kinds of directions and you won't really know which way is "away from" the shooter. Your best bet will be to head for cover. That is, get behind or inside something that can reasonably stop a bullet. Unfortunately, if you're in the middle of the equivalent of a football field surrounded by fences there isn't going to be much cover. In that case your next best option is to run in whatever direction is least obstructed and keep going.
 
“If you can keep your wits while those around you are losing theirs..........” Begins a poem by Rudyard Kipling
 
Lursa said:
I heard people in the media (so-called experts) and people being interviewed that were in the crowd in LV during the shooting last nite.

The main recommendation seemed to be that the best chance of survival was to hunker down flat on the ground. In the open.

I'm sure I didnt hear all recommendations but would this really be better than remaining a moving target and moving towards cover or even concealment?
Click to expand...

In my opinion, in this particular case there may have been no safer choice. Completely luck of the draw. When a shooter is shooting from above and not even aiming intending to spray the crowd? Hunker down and get shot by a miss. Or run and, get shot by the spray. I don’t know. Well, now I have another thought. In a crowd of 20,000+ people, laying down could get you trampled as well. And ANOTHER thought. Animals use the herd to lessen their chances, running in tandem. There’s probably a genetic component to that we might consider listening to. Maybe exposure is lessened by running toward shelter. That’s a point, too. If I had a brain working then, which I probably wouldn’t, I’d look for shelter and run like hell, I think.
 
Lursa said:
It seems very non-intuitive to me to just lay down but I wondered if they were saying it because if you were 'playing dead,' the shooter would not focus on you.
Click to expand...

This guy wasn't shooting at anyone in particular. He was just dumping lead and, most likely, could have cared less if anyone was moving or not.
 
Lutherf said:
Staying stationary, especially out in the open, is about the worst option. Add to that the fact that if you were on the ground in that kind of situation you'd also be more likely to be trampled and I'd chalk that option up as "not only no but hell no!".

The biggest problem people will have in a situation like the Vegas incident is that they likely won't have any idea where the gunfire is coming from. Because of that you'll have people running in all kinds of directions and you won't really know which way is "away from" the shooter. Your best bet will be to head for cover. That is, get behind or inside something that can reasonably stop a bullet. Unfortunately, if you're in the middle of the equivalent of a football field surrounded by fences there isn't going to be much cover. In that case your next best option is to run in whatever direction is least obstructed and keep going.
Click to expand...


YA THINK!

Ya, you thunk.
 
Lursa said:
It seems very non-intuitive to me to just lay down but I wondered if they were saying it because if you were 'playing dead,' the shooter would not focus on you.
Click to expand...

No one knew where the fire was coming from. The distance has been calculated at approximately 1/4 mile. The shooter is just spraying, not aiming at that distance and rate of fire.
 
Rexedgar said:
“If you can keep your wits while those around you are losing theirs..........” Begins a poem by Rudyard Kipling
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Right you are. My post here is a great armchair quarterback analysis. But then I’m the gal that turns around looking when a golfer behind me yells fore. Sigh.
 
MaggieD said:
It’s not that obvious. It’s instinct to freeze.
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If you freeze while standing then you are standing, the discussion is about the wisdom a lying down, a different thing.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
In this case given the angle of attack and not knowing where the shooter is that is a very iffy conclusion. Maybe you stand there and put 100% of your brain on trying to find the shooter, and then act accordingly.
Click to expand...



Maybe. The more I think about it, the more "run" seems like the best option of a bad lot.
 
Goshin said:
Maybe. The more I think about it, the more "run" seems like the best option of a bad lot.
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The best option is almost certainly to find a dead body, lay down, and pull it over you.....though I suspect we dont want to go there, and that I will be accused of being a scumbag for bringing up the idea...even though over the years it has been used successfully quite often.

That's the thing about following truth though, it is often unsavory.
 
View attachment 67223434


The Mandalay Bay is the triangle in the lower center. The stage is the green rectangle in the upper right of the intersection area. Imagine twenty thousand plus people in the area above the stage and you wonder why there were not more casualties.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
The best option is almost certainly to find a dead body, lay down, and pull it over you.....though I suspect we dont want to go there, and I will be accused of being a scumbag for bringing up the idea...even though over the years it has been used successfully quite often.
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Regardless of the social propriety of the suggestion (which doesn't really bother me, the guy is presumably dead already), one body may not stop a rifle round.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
The best option is almost certainly to find a dead body, lay down, and pull it over you.....though I suspect we dont want to go there, and that I will be accused of being a scumbag for bringing up the idea...even though over the years it has been used successfully quite often.

That's the thing about following truth though, it is often unsavory.
Click to expand...

You’re not going to be one of those people who can tell exactly how they would act in a life or death situation, are you? That ISIS/DAESH angle not gaining much traction?
 
Apparently one concert goer had a reaction we haven't discussed here

bird6-e1506960981470.jpg


I'm not so sure that I'd have had that reaction but I sure can't fault him for it!
 
Lursa said:
I heard people in the media (so-called experts) and people being interviewed that were in the crowd in LV during the shooting last nite.

The main recommendation seemed to be that the best chance of survival was to hunker down flat on the ground. In the open.

I'm sure I didnt hear all recommendations but would this really be better than remaining a moving target and moving towards cover or even concealment?
Click to expand...

I dunno, but if I was in that situation, I'd have gotten the hell out of there as fast as possible.

I've been in a few situations at parties where someone had fired off shots, and I booked it as quickly as I could. If there's gunfire, I'm going to get away from it as far and as fast as possible.
 
Lursa said:
It seems very non-intuitive to me to just lay down but I wondered if they were saying it because if you were 'playing dead,' the shooter would not focus on you.
Click to expand...

I would grab my Wife's hand and zigzag. However, you open yourself up to being trampled in the rush.
 
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