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Numbers for future reference [W:430]

Rucker61 said:
Step one: does society have the right to prevent a person from ending their own life?
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The premise of your question is wrong. We are not talking about medically assisted suicides of the terminally ill.

Rucker61 said:
If it's an anti-suicide campaign, will it also include the correlation between suicide and commonly found household items like ropes and bed sheets? Hanging/suffocation is the fastest growing method suicide by far, up 80% since 1999 and accounted for 12k deaths in 2015, and accounted for almost twice as many suicides in female age 15-24 demographic.
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I want to see statistics on what actually correlate to suicides. If what you suggest is true, show me.
 
Phys251 said:
The premise of your question is wrong. We are not talking about medically assisted suicides of the terminally ill.
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No, I'm talking about suicide. Does society have the right to prevent someone from taking their own life, for any reason, by any method?

I want to see statistics on what actually correlate to suicides. If what you suggest is true, show me.
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Here's the data on suicide causes. Somehow every suicide had some kind of means. Each of the 12k hanging/suffocation suicides had easy access to something they used to kill themselves.

https://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/leadcause.html
 
Rucker61 said:
No, I'm talking about suicide. Does society have the right to prevent someone from taking their own life, for any reason, by any method?
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Again you ask a faulty question. My objective is to get the number of suicides down, not to debate over whether they should be legal.

Here's the data on suicide causes. Somehow every suicide had some kind of means. Each of the 12k hanging/suffocation suicides had easy access to something they used to kill themselves.

https://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/leadcause.html
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That does not establish the causation that I specifically asked for. All those stats do is list causes of death.
 
Utility Man said:
cdc-gun-numbers-1024x751.jpg


Obama?s Own CDC Study DESTROYS Liberal Gun Control Push

Numbers you should be proud of.

30,000 gun deaths last year.

4% justified.

:doh

Better than you could have hoped for aye.



More guns for everyone!
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Do you support assisted suicide?
 
Phys251 said:
Again you ask a faulty question. My objective is to get the number of suicides down, not to debate over whether they should be legal.
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If society doesn't have the right to restrict suicide, why should society be used to reduce them?

That does not establish the causation that I specifically asked for. All those stats do is list causes of death.
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No, you asked for correlation. You're not going to find causation for guns or rope either. 42% of households have guns. There are 125 million households, average size 2.5 people. That's 22k gun suicides divided by 0.42 x 125 million x 2.5, or 0.017%. Statistically, very few gun owners kill themselves each year.


http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...on-americans-views-of-guns-and-gun-ownership/
https://www.statista.com/statistics/183635/number-of-households-in-the-us/
 
Phys251 said:
What about one that doesn't? Say, a public awareness campaign that discusses the correlation between gun ownership and suicides while not forcing people not to own guns?
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What correlation is there? The only correlation between suicides regardless of method is mental health.
 
TurtleDude said:
do you want the FBI or the DEA to be tasked with studying the impact of menstrual cramps on the productivity of American female workers? anyone who wants the CDC to study this issue is biased against guns because, by definition, they buy into the bannerrhoid tactic of claiming gun ownership is a disease.
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:roll: ....
 
Moot said:
Because the CDC studies threats to public safety
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No, their charter is somewhat more limited.

The Secretary, Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), the Assistant Secretary for Health, HHS, and by delegation the Director, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), are authorized under Section 301 [42 U.S.C. §241] and Section 311 [42 U.S.C. §243] of the Public Health Service Act, as amended, to: (1) conduct, encourage, cooperate with, and assist other appropriate public authorities, scientific institutions, and scientists in the conduct of research. investigations, experiments. demonstrations, and studies relating to the causes, diagnosis, treatment, control, and prevention of physical and mental diseases, and other impairments; (2) assist States and their political subdivisions in the prevention or infectious diseases and other preventable conditions, and in promoting health and well -being; and (3) train State and local personnel in health work.

and firearms are the fifth largest cause for death in the US.
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No, they are not. If we separate firearms out from suicides and homicides they don't even make the top ten.

https://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/leadcause.html
 
Rucker61 said:
If society doesn't have the right to restrict suicide, why should society be used to reduce them?
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What you are doing is basically suggesting that undesirable thing X possibly shouldn't be illegal, and therefore society should do nothing about it. If so then your logic is faulty. Just like we don't ban the sale of cigarettes, but we have had successful anti-smoking campaigns for decades. (Although there have been laws that purposefully make cigarette purchase less convenient, so the analogy doesn't entirely hold.)

No, you asked for correlation. You're not going to find causation for guns or rope either. 42% of households have guns. There are 125 million households, average size 2.5 people. That's 22k gun suicides divided by 0.42 x 125 million x 2.5, or 0.017%. Statistically, very few gun owners kill themselves each year.

Americans? views on guns and gun ownership: 8 key findings | Pew Research Center
https://www.statista.com/statistics/183635/number-of-households-in-the-us/
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But the correlation between gun ownership and suicides has been established. Here is an example study that shows that result, even when other factors are accounted for.

BretJ said:
What correlation is there? The only correlation between suicides regardless of method is mental health.
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Incorrect. See the study above.
 
Rucker61 said:
No, their charter is somewhat more limited.

The Secretary, Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), the Assistant Secretary for Health, HHS, and by delegation the Director, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), are authorized under Section 301 [42 U.S.C. §241] and Section 311 [42 U.S.C. §243] of the Public Health Service Act, as amended, to: (1) conduct, encourage, cooperate with, and assist other appropriate public authorities, scientific institutions, and scientists in the conduct of research. investigations, experiments. demonstrations, and studies relating to the causes, diagnosis, treatment, control, and prevention of physical and mental diseases, and other impairments; (2) assist States and their political subdivisions in the prevention or infectious diseases and other preventable conditions, and in promoting health and well -being; and (3) train State and local personnel in health work.
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Are you blind? lol It says the CDC is authorized to conduct scientific research and studies relating to the causes and prevention phyiscal and mental disease and other preventable conditions. Anything that is a threat to public health and safety....that could include anything from cancer to schizophrenia, to automobiles...and firearms.


"...For more than 20 years, CDC’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control (the Injury Center) has helped protect Americans from injuries and violence. We are the nation’s leading authority on injury and violence. We study violence and injuries and research the best ways to prevent them, applying science and creating real-world solutions to keep people safe, healthy, and productive.

Our mission is to prevent injuries and violence through science and action.

Our vision is everyone, everywhere, every day – safe and free from injuries and violence.

Here is how we are putting our scientific expertise into action:

*Identifying and monitoring the problem

*Conducting research to guide decision making

*Empowering states through funding and technical assistance

https://www.cdc.gov/injury/about/index.html​


No, they are not. If we separate firearms out from suicides and homicides they don't even make the top ten.

https://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/leadcause.html
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Then don't separate the firearm deaths. Suicide by firearm or homicide by firearm is still a death by firearm no matter how you slice and dice it.
 
Phys251 said:
What you are doing is basically suggesting that undesirable thing X possibly shouldn't be illegal, and therefore society should do nothing about it. If so then your logic is faulty. Just like we don't ban the sale of cigarettes, but we have had successful anti-smoking campaigns for decades. (Although there have been laws that purposefully make cigarette purchase less convenient, so the analogy doesn't entirely hold.)



But the correlation between gun ownership and suicides has been established. Here is an example study that shows that result, even when other factors are accounted for.



Incorrect. See the study above.
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So does this also show causation? As I said, the correlation between all suicides, regardless of method, is mental health, in particular suicidal thoughts/tendencies. If there were any indication of causation, it would affect numbers far, far greater than a fraction of 1% so there must be far more to it than simple possession of a firearm. Are we to assume correlation between alcohol, ropes, plant fertilizer or any other materials used in suicides? Really? If there was a concern for these lives, the right thing to do is concentrate on the whys versus the how's.
 
Moot said:
Are you blind? lol It says the CDC is authorized to conduct scientific research and studies relating to the causes and prevention phyiscal and mental disease and other preventable conditions. Anything that is a threat to public health and safety....that could include anything from cancer to schizophrenia, to automobiles...and firearms.


"...For more than 20 years, CDC’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control (the Injury Center) has helped protect Americans from injuries and violence. We are the nation’s leading authority on injury and violence. We study violence and injuries and research the best ways to prevent them, applying science and creating real-world solutions to keep people safe, healthy, and productive.

Our mission is to prevent injuries and violence through science and action.

Our vision is everyone, everywhere, every day – safe and free from injuries and violence.

Here is how we are putting our scientific expertise into action:

*Identifying and monitoring the problem

*Conducting research to guide decision making

*Empowering states through funding and technical assistance

https://www.cdc.gov/injury/about/index.html​




Then don't separate the firearm deaths. Suicide by firearm or homicide by firearm is still a death by firearm no matter how you slice and dice it.
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everyone who wants the CDC to waste its time on an issue that does not need doctors involved, is anti gun. tell me Moot why the people who want the CDC involved are all gun banners?
 
Moot said:
Are you blind? lol It says the CDC is authorized to conduct scientific research and studies relating to the causes and prevention phyiscal and mental disease and other preventable conditions. Anything that is a threat to public health and safety....that could include anything from cancer to schizophrenia, to automobiles...and firearms.
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Quite a stretch there. Is recidivism among felons a threat to public health and safety? Are unsanitary kitchens in restaurant a threat to public health? Is North Korea's new missle system a threat to public safety and health?

Guns used in crimes are not under the purview of the CDC. Suggestions that would restrict the rights of law abiding citizens does not fall under the purview of the CDC.
 
Phys251 said:
But the correlation between gun ownership and suicides has been established. Here is an example study that shows that result, even when other factors are accounted for.
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From your link:

"The evidence that gun availability increases the suicide rates of adults is credible, but is currently less compelling. Most of the disaggregate findings of particular studies (e.g. handguns are more of a risk factor than long guns, guns stored unlocked pose a greater risk than guns stored locked) are suggestive but not yet well established."

"We analyzed the relationship of gun availability and suicide among differing age groups across the 9 US regions. After controlling for divorce, education, unemployment, poverty and urbanization, the statistically significant relationship holds for 15 to 24 year-olds and 45 to 84 year-olds, but not for 25 to 44 year-olds."

Why is there no statistically significant relationship for all age groups?

"Gun owning households do not have more mental health problems than non-gun owning households; differences in mental health do not explain why gun owners and their families are at higher risk for completed suicide than non-gun owning families."

Note the carefully chosen term "completed suicide". We all agree that guns have a higher completion rate than non-firearm methods, (https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/case-fatality/) but an analysis of those completion rates and the numbers of completed suicides (https://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/leadcause.html) gives us a good impression of the number of attempts, which is what we want to prevent.

Dividing completions in completion rates we see that for the 22k gun suicides there were about 26.6k attempts. For all other types of suicides, the completions total about 21k but the attempts calculate out to over 300k.

We have more gun suicides because guns are more effective.
 
TurtleDude said:
everyone who wants the CDC to waste its time on an issue that does not need doctors involved, is anti gun. tell me Moot why the people who want the CDC involved are all gun banners?
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It's just a study, TD...why does that scare you so much?
 
Rucker61 said:
Quite a stretch there. Is recidivism among felons a threat to public health and safety? Are unsanitary kitchens in restaurant a threat to public health? Is North Korea's new missle system a threat to public safety and health?

Guns used in crimes are not under the purview of the CDC. Suggestions that would restrict the rights of law abiding citizens does not fall under the purview of the CDC.
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Whataboutism? Lets just just stick to the topic at hand, shall we? The CDC studies threats to public health and safety ...and firearm violence is a threat to public safety. Since the CDC hasn't even conducted a study on firearm violence yet...it's little premature to be discussing the results and it's suggestions.
 
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BretJ said:
What correlation is there? The only correlation between suicides regardless of method is mental health.
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Mental health plays a roll in gun homicides and mass shootings as well. So why not let the CDC study the problem so they can perhaps find a solution and/or prevention?
 
Moot said:
Mental health plays a roll in gun homicides and mass shootings as well. So why not let the CDC study the problem so they can perhaps find a solution and/or prevention?
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By concentrating their effort on mental health, wouldn't they find a solution or prevention strategy for more homicides/suicides/violence than simply asking why an exceptionally small number of suicidal/homicidal individuals choose a firearm over other methods?
 
Moot said:
Whataboutism? Lets just just stick to the topic at hand, shall we? The CDC studies threats to public health and safety ...and firearm violence is a threat to public safety. Since the CDC hasn't even conducted a study on firearm violence yet...it's little premature to be discussing the results and it's suggestions.
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No, it's not too early. As noted, only the anti's want the CDC to study gun violence, so the desired end result is to have more gun control. Progun people rely on the actual legal obstacles to more restrictions. There isn't anything that the CDC can suggest that hasn't been shot down multiple times on a legal basis.

Gun deaths are nearly all people deliberately killing themselves or deliberately killing someone else, and these are not the symptoms of a public health issue limited specifically to guns. If gun suicide is a public health issue then so are rope suicides. If the aim of the CDC study is not to suggest more gun control, then they are already free to conduct such studies. The apparent lack of those studies clearly indicates that the goal is in fact more gun control.

2hat in your wildest hopes would you want the CDC to find? It might already be listed in the recent CDC study on gun violence conducted on Wilmington Delaware.

CDC releases final report on Wilmington?s high rates of gun violence | Delaware First Media
 
Moot said:
Mental health plays a roll in gun homicides and mass shootings as well. So why not let the CDC study the problem so they can perhaps find a solution and/or prevention?
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CDC is free to study mental health issues in crime if they want to address the mental health aspects.
 
Moot said:
It's just a study, TD...why does that scare you so much?
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not scared-just wondering why the people clamoring for such studies are all gun banners
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Because it's a study that seeks to answer a question he is afraid to answer?
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why is it that the people who want doctors weighing in on gun laws are all anti gun extremists? are you NOT aware of comments by CDC doctors who brayed that they would do to gun ownership what they did to smoking?
 
TurtleDude said:
not scared-just wondering why the people clamoring for such studies are all gun banners
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And the people who don't want the CDC to study firearm violence are all NRA stooges. So what are they afraid of?
 
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