2017: One Mass Shooting Per Month, Min

calamity · Jun 19, 2017

Black Dog said:
I am 54 years old. Ex military and ex LEO. I know personally one person killed or murdered with a gun. I know one person who was stabbed and lived. This begs the question...

Where the **** do you live to be around that many murders, stabbings etc??? I lived in the ghetto's of Chicago and we did not see that level of violence.

I am going to say right now I really don't believe it as that is ridicules for a civilian. On top of that your anecdotal evidence as I have said before means nothing. It can't be proved or disproved.

Then to top it off you you open with "I am not against guns." and close with "No gun, no one gets killed."

Now considering your history on this issue here at DP, do you really expect anyone to take that seriously?

First, happy 1963. I'm 54 as well.

I've grappled with this number myself. Trust me there. Why the **** do I know so many people who have died in such ****ty ways? On top of the nearly dozen people I know who were murdered, I also knew at least 20 people who died young from other stupid crap: DUI, drug OD, suicide--lots and lots of suicides.

The first case was in a Berwyn hospital. Nothing to do with me. A neighbor friend's older brother in a bar fight shot and killed an hour or two later while getting sewn up. Next was my childhood GF's dad. He was shot when he went to investigate a burglary in the basement of the apartment complex he managed. Not long after, my cousin was shot and killed in the military during an argument over a card game, 1977 or so, IIRC. 1981, high school buddy stabs another guy I knew to death at a party during an altercation.

And, so it goes. From my wife's aunt getting smoked by her estranged husband to my aunt's husband being whacked over the head with a bat during a bar fight. The last one was the burglary I mentioned here in town. In between was an old high school friend who picked a fight with the wrong guy. The guy pulled out his piece and put my friend in a grave. And, of course, the worst one, IMO, a guy I worked with and liked a lot, shot his ex and then himself on her grandmother's porch.

There are probably a couple more that either do not come to mind or are not worth mentioning, like my grade school friend's mom who drowned in the bathtub--no charges were filed, but come on now. Who drown in a freaking bathtub on their own?

I compiled a list once, wrote a poem, called it "Ode to Dear Dead Friends." It's ****ing staggering.

Black Dog · Jun 19, 2017

calamity said:
First, happy 1963. I'm 54 as well.

I've grappled with this number myself. Trust me there. Why the **** do I know so many people who have died in such ****ty ways? On top of the nearly dozen people I know who were murdered, I also knew at least 20 people who died young from other stupid crap: DUI, drug OD, suicide--lots and lots of suicides.

The first case was in a Berwyn hospital. Nothing to do with me. A neighbor friend's older brother in a bar fight shot and killed an hour or two later while getting sewn up. Next was my childhood GF's dad. He was shot when he went to investigate a burglary in the basement of the apartment complex he managed. Not long after, my cousin was shot and killed in the military during an argument over a card game, 1977 or so, IIRC. 1981, high school buddy stabs another guy I knew to death at a party during an altercation.

And, so it goes. From my wife's aunt getting smoked by her estranged husband to my aunt's husband being whacked over the head with a bat during a bar fight. The last one was the burglary I mentioned here in town. In between was an old high school friend who picked a fight with the wrong guy. The guy pulled out his piece and put my friend in a grave. And, of course, the worst one, IMO, a guy I worked with and liked a lot, shot his ex and then himself on her grandmother's porch.

There are probably a couple more that either do not come to mind or are not worth mentioning. But, I compiled a list once, wrote a poem, called it "Ode to Dear Dead Friends." It's ****ing staggering.

That's 1962 for me! Well happy upcoming 55 to you, lol.

Well I am not sure what kind of family and friends you have again that is hard to believe. Like I said it cannot be proved or disproved, so in debate it means very little. I can say I don't know anyone who was murdered! So you are wrong. Of course if I did it would again be of little value in a debate because it means nothing.

You need evidence backed up by fact, not emotions or wishful thinking. If all that did happen to you, this is not to minimize it, but it can't be used to prove anything.

calamity · Jun 19, 2017

Black Dog said:
That's 1962 for me! Well happy upcoming 55 to you, lol.

Well I am not sure what kind of family and friends you have again that is hard to believe. Like I said it cannot be proved or disproved, so in debate it means very little. I can say I don't know anyone who was murdered! So you are wrong. Of course if I did it would again be of little value in a debate because it means nothing.

You need evidence backed up by fact, not emotions or wishful thinking. If all that did happen to you, this is not to minimize it, but it can't be used to prove anything.

Sure, if this was a real debate that would be true. But, since it is more of a discussion forum, personal experience comes into play and is worth sharing, although it certainly does not make for a win.

As for not knowing anyone. My dad said the same thing. Of course, when I reminded him that he knew at least half those people too, he had to reevaluate. In the end, he conceded that he chooses not to pay attention to things like that unless it affects him directly. :shrug:

Black Dog · Jun 19, 2017

calamity said:
Sure, if this was a real debate that would be true. But, since it is more of a discussion forum, personal experience comes into play and is worth sharing, although it certainly does not make for a win.

"Debate politics" so na na na!

calamity said:
As for not knowing anyone. My dad said the same thing. Of course, when I reminded him that he knew at least half those people too, he had to reevaluate. In the end, he conceded that he chooses not to pay attention to things like that unless it affects him directly. :shrug:

No you got the wrong idea. I meant that as an example of what I could say, not that I would or did. I know a few people who have been murdered, and at least one who was stabbed and lived.

calamity · Jun 19, 2017

Black Dog said:
"Debate politics" so na na na!

No you got the wrong idea. I meant that as an example of what I could say, not that I would or did. I know a few people who have been murdered, and at least one who was stabbed and lived.

I'm a personal experience kind of guy. I doubt I would do this if it was just facts and figures that had nothing to do with or played no part in my own universe. I'm sure this isn't the first time you've noticed that about me

Black Dog · Jun 19, 2017

calamity said:
I'm a personal experience kind of guy. I doubt I would do this if it was just facts and figures that had nothing to do with or played no part in my own universe. I'm sure this isn't the first time you've noticed that about me

Yea you damn snow flake, lol. j/k could not resist.

I don't mind it, I like personal story's. It's just that when it comes to my guns, the facts usually support my position. So that's what I run with, yo.

Rucker61 · Jun 19, 2017

Black Dog said:
I am going to disagree again. It is minuscule, but yes it is interesting. Look here...

They found that the convicts did seem to respond to the harsher sentences. They estimated that previously convicted criminals discount the future at a rate of 0.74: in other words, they care about events in one year’s time around three quarters as much as events today. This compares to discount rates of around 0.95 more common in the population at large. The economists compare different groups; the highly educated are most sensitive to heftier sentences, while immigrants and drug-offenders are least sensitive. "

The majority of gun crime is in the inner cities. How many gang members are well educated? How many are not drug users? Then we are talking about what seems to be a 0.95 in the prison population? Less than one percent, and you think that is not minuscule, lol.

Why the sudden limit in discussion from crime to gun crime?

Black Dog · Jun 19, 2017

Rucker61 said:
Why the sudden limit in discussion from crime to gun crime?

What limit? I am just saying that harsher punishments don't seem to be much of a deterrent. The evidence backs this up. I mean is that somehow limiting the discussion? I already gave my solution...

Black Dog said:
Yea it's a nightmare. You asked why we will not admit to a "gun violence problem?" That is your answer. It's just a violence problem and guns are just part of it. It stems from one place... Highly populated gang infested inner city slums. If we could clean that up? The crime rate in general would drop to levels you see in most Western nations with severe gun laws. Our "gun culture" is not the problem... It's "gang culture."

Will this stop all gun crime? Of course not. Mental health and many other issues drive gun crime. We however have an obligation to protect our rights while addressing the real problem in our inner cities.

And on BretJ's excellent article which I agreed with...

New Orleans And The Hard Work Of Pushing Down The Murder Rate : NPR

Black Dog said:
Just wanted to add. You and I have been at odds about racial profiling as far as gun crime goes. This is not racial profiling and it works. It warns known gang member and their affiliates they are under close scrutiny due to recent criminal activity of a violent nature involving guns etc. This in my opinion is just common sense and good policing without infringing on peoples rights to be secure from unreasonable searches etc.

So where am I putting a "limit" on the discussion?

PIPEWRENCH · Jun 19, 2017

One thing we can be sure of is it is going to get worse. The people are not happy and these shootings are indisputable evidence. Our country is circling the drain while our government is focused on a witch hunt.

Our health care is still getting worse by the minute as we continue to pay more for less. Well that is unless you are a part of our government where we pay for your platinum coverage. Then everything is just wonderful.

Our retirement situation is in chaos as we change over from employer paid retirement to self funded retirement. Well that is unless you work for the government and we pay for it. Then everything is wonderful.

Our stagnant wages as well as all the cuts in pay, as well as loss of benefits, and the forcing of so many to take second jobs is also fueling these shootings. That is unless you work for the government and were not subject to the crash of our economy. Then everything is wonderful.

Then add in our bias, corrupt, prejudice, media that is all hype and hate verses truth and yes this shootings will get worse not better.

But I am sure taking away or restricting the right to bear arms from the law abiding honest hard working citizens is the answer.:lamo

calamity · Jun 19, 2017

PIPEWRENCH said:
One thing we can be sure of is it is going to get worse. The people are not happy and these shootings are indisputable evidence. Our country is circling the drain while our government is focused on a witch hunt.

Our health care is still getting worse by the minute as we continue to pay more for less. Well that is unless you are a part of our government where we pay for your platinum coverage. Then everything is just wonderful.

Our retirement situation is in chaos as we change over from employer paid retirement to self funded retirement. Well that is unless you work for the government and we pay for it. Then everything is wonderful.

Our stagnant wages as well as all the cuts in pay, as well as loss of benefits, and the forcing of so many to take second jobs is also fueling these shootings. That is unless you work for the government and were not subject to the crash of our economy. Then everything is wonderful.

Then add in our bias, corrupt, prejudice, media that is all hype and hate verses truth and yes this shootings will get worse not better.

But I am sure taking away or restricting the right to bear arms from the law abiding honest hard working citizens is the answer.:lamo

Next on the horizon, almost every wage stiff will be competing with automation and AI. It won't be long until stores will be gone, deliveries made by drone and what used to be a job for truck drivers, train engineers, UPS guys, retail clerks, stock brokers, and most middle management paper shufflers will be done by some version of Watson. Unless, of course, you are a part of our government where we pay for you to watch the computer work while you pretend to be doing something. Then everything is just wonderful.

ludin · Jun 19, 2017

calamity said:
Will the insanity ever end? Probably not. It will only increase. Gun Rights Lobby is too strong. Giving an inch will never happen. Bodies will only pile up.

Even under the narrowest definition, there's been at least 1 mass shooting every month this year - CNN.com

But, make no mistake, it is gun culture that is at the root of this. Americans love their guns. And, they reach for them when pissed off. And, that is happening more and more with each and every passing month.

nope has nothing to do with the gun culture at all, but I don't expect you to be honest in this.

however what is amazing is I went to a party yesterday and everyone there was shooting guns and guess what no one got shot.
amazing.

calamity · Jun 19, 2017

ludin said:
nope has nothing to do with the gun culture at all, but I don't expect you to be honest in this.

however what is amazing is I went to a party yesterday and everyone there was shooting guns and guess what no one got shot.
amazing.

Well, you certainly came late to this party. I suggest reading the thread to see how it evolved. There were some good points made by all.

BretJ · Jun 19, 2017

Black Dog said:
And you just again made my point for me...

"1. The certainty of being caught is a vastly more powerful deterrent than the punishment.
Research shows clearly that the chance of being caught is a vastly more effective deterrent than even draconian punishment."

So again, I will go with the evidence. I never said anything about it being the only deterrent or not effective at all. I said it's effect on crime is minimal as all of the evidence presented so far suggests.

I don't know, but severe sentencing is not much of a deterrent. Most gun crime are crimes of passion, so thought of consequences has almost nothing to do with it.

I was under the assumption you believed that the punishment had no effect. My bad. I do understand what you are saying now. I will point out that punishment affects different people different ways. My two sons are a great example. My oldest son responded to punishment that would hardly be a speed bump for my youngest who required more severe punishment to elicit correct behavior. If the possibility of getting caught were 100%, there are still individuals who would not be deterred. In their cases, no amount of punishment would deter them. What the punishment does is give society some respite for the duration. On the other hand, there are some that are deterred by the old "if you can't do the time...." mantra.

Black Dog · Jun 19, 2017

BretJ said:
I was under the assumption you believed that the punishment had no effect. My bad. I do understand what you are saying now. I will point out that punishment affects different people different ways. My two sons are a great example. My oldest son responded to punishment that would hardly be a speed bump for my youngest who required more severe punishment to elicit correct behavior. If the possibility of getting caught were 100%, there are still individuals who would not be deterred. In their cases, no amount of punishment would deter them. What the punishment does is give society some respite for the duration. On the other hand, there are some that are deterred by the old "if you can't do the time...." mantra.

Absolutely. Where you and I disagree (and there is no right or wrong here) is the punishment fitting the crime. I don't think someone making a straw purchase deserves 25 years. Now if it can be shown that the person did knowingly purchase the weapon for let's say a felon, and that felon kills someone. Yes 25 to life easy. Otherwise 10 years should in my opinion be the max, not the minimum. Like I said no right or wrong here as that is all just my opinion.

calamity · Jun 19, 2017

BretJ said:
I was under the assumption you believed that the punishment had no effect. My bad. I do understand what you are saying now. I will point out that punishment affects different people different ways. My two sons are a great example. My oldest son responded to punishment that would hardly be a speed bump for my youngest who required more severe punishment to elicit correct behavior. If the possibility of getting caught were 100%, there are still individuals who would not be deterred. In their cases, no amount of punishment would deter them. What the punishment does is give society some respite for the duration. On the other hand, there are some that are deterred by the old "if you can't do the time...." mantra.

Yeah, I misunderstood BD's point earlier too myself. But then I realized where he was going....and it got me to thinking.

A great example is what happened to my buddy and his neighbor. The two burglars, both known to the victim, were caught in the act of trying to steal **** while he slept after he woke up. Had they left, they would be facing probation, most likely, since both are first time offenders. However, they didn't leave. They shot him dead, upping their potential punishment significantly in the processes.

Making matters worse, when the neighbor saw them (someone who also knows them by name), they hunted her down and shot her like a dog. Had they been thinking, they could have just left, or better yet, stayed and told the cops a cover story for why they shot the guy. Potential case of manslaughter, 10 years max, if the story goes like this: "He owed me money. We went to confront him, he reached for a gun, I shot him." Likely result now: LWOP best case, needle more than likely for at least one of them.

Now, I understand that in the heat of the moment, people do stupid things. But, you can see here a perfect example for where the severity of punishment did not deter a goddamned thing. For them, not getting caught was the goal. And, killing two people seemed, to them, at least at the time, to be a means to that end.

ludin · Jun 19, 2017

calamity said:
Well, you certainly came late to this party. I suggest reading the thread to see how it evolved. There were some good points made by all.

Not late at all. YOu made a paintbrush fallacy and I simply destroyed it.

calamity · Jun 19, 2017

ludin said:
Not late at all. YOu made a paintbrush fallacy and I simply destroyed it.

Not really. But, we all like to believe things like that.

ludin · Jun 19, 2017

calamity said:
Not really. But, we all like to believe things like that.

your lack of a response is what I expected. which his why I said you couldn't be honest in this discussion.

with a solid constitutional judge on the court gun rights will be preserved for a while.

Black Dog · Jun 19, 2017

ludin said:
Not late at all. YOu made a paintbrush fallacy and I simply destroyed it.

Just take a few moments and read. You will see that we went over all that it had nothing to do with you or anyone else destroying anything.

ludin said:
nope has nothing to do with the gun culture at all, but I don't expect you to be honest in this.

He knows it is not gun culture and was honest about that. I know because I explained the majority of violence comes not from gun culture, but gang culture and lack of mental health support etc.

ludin said:
however what is amazing is I went to a party yesterday and everyone there was shooting guns and guess what no one got shot.
amazing.

That is not an argument.

PIPEWRENCH · Jun 19, 2017

calamity said:
Next on the horizon, almost every wage stiff will be competing with automation and AI. It won't be long until stores will be gone, deliveries made by drone and what used to be a job for truck drivers, train engineers, UPS guys, retail clerks, stock brokers, and most middle management paper shufflers will be done by some version of Watson. Unless, of course, you are a part of our government where we pay for you to watch the computer work while you pretend to be doing something. Then everything is just wonderful.

I personally welcome automation.

I took 6 months pay to buy a 13" black and white TV with the definition we had in the 60's. That was what my father had to pay so we could watch TV.

For 6 months pay I can buy a 70 ultra HD smart TV, surround sound system, Xbox, video camera, digital camera, PC, lap top, smart phone, IPad, and security system. I would still have money left over to go on vacation.

Anyone against automation is out of their mind.

calamity · Jun 19, 2017

PIPEWRENCH said:
I personally welcome automation.

I took 6 months pay to buy a 13" black and white TV with the definition we had in the 60's. That was what my father had to pay so we could watch TV.

For 6 months pay I can buy a 70 ultra HD smart TV, surround sound system, Xbox, video camera, digital camera, PC, lap top, smart phone, IPad, and security system. I would still have money left over to go on vacation.

Anyone against automation is out of their mind.

lol...I deal with it for a living. So, I'm definitely not anti-automation. But, the time is coming when we all may be out of a job because of it. :lol:

zsu2357 · Jun 19, 2017

calamity said:
First, happy 1963. I'm 54 as well.

I've grappled with this number myself. Trust me there. Why the **** do I know so many people who have died in such ****ty ways? On top of the nearly dozen people I know who were murdered, I also knew at least 20 people who died young from other stupid crap: DUI, drug OD, suicide--lots and lots of suicides.

The first case was in a Berwyn hospital. Nothing to do with me. A neighbor friend's older brother in a bar fight shot and killed an hour or two later while getting sewn up. Next was my childhood GF's dad. He was shot when he went to investigate a burglary in the basement of the apartment complex he managed. Not long after, my cousin was shot and killed in the military during an argument over a card game, 1977 or so, IIRC. 1981, high school buddy stabs another guy I knew to death at a party during an altercation.

And, so it goes. From my wife's aunt getting smoked by her estranged husband to my aunt's husband being whacked over the head with a bat during a bar fight. The last one was the burglary I mentioned here in town. In between was an old high school friend who picked a fight with the wrong guy. The guy pulled out his piece and put my friend in a grave. And, of course, the worst one, IMO, a guy I worked with and liked a lot, shot his ex and then himself on her grandmother's porch.

There are probably a couple more that either do not come to mind or are not worth mentioning, like my grade school friend's mom who drowned in the bathtub--no charges were filed, but come on now. Who drown in a freaking bathtub on their own?

I compiled a list once, wrote a poem, called it "Ode to Dear Dead Friends." It's ****ing staggering.

Ah you kids nowadays. What was I doing? Out shooting my newly acquired .22 cal. single shot rifle.I was eight and didn't even shoot no one. HAPPY BIRTHDAY GUYS

zsu2357 · Jun 19, 2017

=calamity;1067326058]Sure, if this was a real debate that would be true. But, since it is more of a discussion forum, personal experience comes into play and is worth sharing, although it certainly does not make for a win.

I don't know anyone that has been shot or stabbed so does that mean it doesn't happen? As far as "personal experience comes into play".

As for not knowing anyone. My dad said the same thing. Of course, when I reminded him that he knew at least half those people too, he had to reevaluate. In the end, he conceded that he chooses not to pay attention to things like that unless it affects him directly. :shrug

Oh I pay attention and if someone I know or know of was I would know. And that is a lot of knows.

PIPEWRENCH · Jun 19, 2017

calamity said:
lol...I deal with it for a living. So, I'm definitely not anti-automation. But, the time is coming when we all may be out of a job because of it. :lol:

They have been saying that for too long now. The assembly line was going to put everyone out of work. Then it was the modern farm equipment. Yet we still need millions of slave laborers to pick crops. then was the modern earth moving machines, backhoes, and bulldozers. Yet we still have millions of people working with a pick and shovel. In my job there are still millions of people suffering from back injuries that would welcome a machine to deliver boilers into basements. Bring on the labor saving devices. I would love for future generations to no longer have to suffer the way I have from back breaking labor.

calamity · Jun 19, 2017

PIPEWRENCH said:
They have been saying that for too long now. The assembly line was going to put everyone out of work. Then it was the modern farm equipment. Yet we still need millions of slave laborers to pick crops. then was the modern earth moving machines, backhoes, and bulldozers. Yet we still have millions of people working with a pick and shovel. In my job there are still millions of people suffering from back injuries that would welcome a machine to deliver boilers into basements. Bring on the labor saving devices. I would love for future generations to no longer have to suffer the way I have from back breaking labor.

Good points. I want a robot that paints my house. I hate doing it and I am too cheap to farm it out. :lol:

2017: One Mass Shooting Per Month, Min

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