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2017: One Mass Shooting Per Month, Min

Straw man...

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

Want to try again with the truth?



Now are you going to address what I said or continue with excuses and straw men?

Well as soon as you post something other than a jpeg from an unknown site, you can say whatever you like and it is backed up by nothing.

According to the information I posted backed up by hard data, your statements are false. That is unless you can post some real data and not just "will I have never heard" your anecdotal evidence means 0.

The "jpeg" of a chart showing a steady decline of DUI fatalities from 1970 through 2012 was an aggregate measure of total numbers across the US. It didn't take anything else into account, but only looked at shear volume of DUI deaths then versus now. To be fair, we've seen similar declines in all vehicle fatalities not just DUI. So, I probably over sold the value of that graph.

I'll look into all this a bit deeper. It seems reasonable that the effort to get drunks off the road has paid off in fewer drunks killing people. But, I fully agree that it did not eliminate DUI fatalities completely, nor did enforcement alone reduce them by 50%, as the MDD chart showed.
 
Here is a pretty good article. I have seen several others outlining similar measures in other cities being successful as well.

New Orleans And The Hard Work Of Pushing Down The Murder Rate : NPR

Note the part that the bad guys were less likely to offend when the certainty of being caught went up. If punishment does not deter, why would some be concerned with getting caught?

It is indeed a good article. Your conclusion is however wrong. From the article...

The "call-ins" are based on the idea that the certainty of punishment matters more than the severity of punishment; if you communicate clearly with the gang-involved people what's at stake, they'll think twice.

So I absolutely agree with the article. The article points out that after a shooting all relevant parties are brought in and warned that they are being watched closely. It's as the article stated about the fear of being caught being the deterrent not the severity of the punishment.
 
Lots of food for thought there. Thanks.

I would also like to point out. In researching this I came to the same conclusion vs gun violence. Again population density does matter even in the case of gun violence.

Just some food for though.
 
It is indeed a good article. Your conclusion is however wrong. From the article...

The "call-ins" are based on the idea that the certainty of punishment matters more than the severity of punishment; if you communicate clearly with the gang-involved people what's at stake, they'll think twice.

So I absolutely agree with the article. The article points out that after a shooting all relevant parties are brought in and warned that they are being watched closely. It's as the article stated about the fear of being caught being the deterrent not the severity of the punishment.

"the fear of being caught being the deterrent not the severity of the punishment."

That makes sense.
 
It is indeed a good article. Your conclusion is however wrong. From the article...

The "call-ins" are based on the idea that the certainty of punishment matters more than the severity of punishment; if you communicate clearly with the gang-involved people what's at stake, they'll think twice.

So I absolutely agree with the article. The article points out that after a shooting all relevant parties are brought in and warned that they are being watched closely. It's as the article stated about the fear of being caught being the deterrent not the severity of the punishment.

Again, if there is no fear of punishment, why is there a fear of getting caught?
 
Again, if there is no fear of punishment, why is there a fear of getting caught?

Why are you asking me? It's your article and it supports my opinion. Here it is again...

The "call-ins" are based on the idea that the certainty of punishment matters more than the severity of punishment; if you communicate clearly with the gang-involved people what's at stake, they'll think twice.

I have already made my case. You need to post evidence that backs up the severity of the punishment claim. So far you have backed up my theory.

Now as for your assertion that "if there is no fear of punishment" which I never said. I said there is no correlation. Huge difference.
 
"the fear of being caught being the deterrent not the severity of the punishment."

That makes sense.

He's right-years ago some famed expert on criminal issues was discussing crime and punishment. he asked the audience what would deter murders more

1) boiling in oil (or something similar) all the murderers CONVICTED of murder in the USA

2) guaranteeing that every single person who commits murder does 8 years in prison for a 5 year period

he claimed and I agree that the second choice would. Why? because most people who actually premeditate murder figure they won't get caught. Now if there was five years of every single murderer getting 8 years of prison, it would convince all but the most brain dead criminals that they will be caught and punished.
 
He's right-years ago some famed expert on criminal issues was discussing crime and punishment. he asked the audience what would deter murders more

1) boiling in oil (or something similar) all the murderers CONVICTED of murder in the USA

2) guaranteeing that every single person who commits murder does 8 years in prison for a 5 year period

he claimed and I agree that the second choice would. Why? because most people who actually premeditate murder figure they won't get caught. Now if there was five years of every single murderer getting 8 years of prison, it would convince all but the most brain dead criminals that they will be caught and punished.

Just wanted to add. You and I have been at odds about racial profiling as far as gun crime goes. This is not racial profiling and it works. It warns known gang member and their affiliates they are under close scrutiny due to recent criminal activity of a violent nature involving guns etc. This in my opinion is just common sense and good policing without infringing on peoples rights to be secure from unreasonable searches etc.
 
No, you weren't. You simply embarrassed yourself.

But, of course, I actually did.

But, of course, you babbling that it's 'a fraud' doesn't actually make it one, and it doesn't prove your point.

You complain about old data and you cite something from 2006? LOL! Really? Have something a little more recent, but don't let it upset you if you go down the the individual state level

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_country

You have no interest in rational debate, so we're done here.

Go ahead and have the last word and don't forget to mention 'leftists' or even 'Benghazi' to score extra points.

Ya 2006, which should have helped your argument. Over the last 10 years crime in the US has declined. While crime in Europe has skyrocketed because of Leftist refugee policies.

Your source is cherry picked propaganda from a Leftists anti second amendment group.

My source is just straight none political stats.

Nice try but you lost this one.
 
He's right-years ago some famed expert on criminal issues was discussing crime and punishment. he asked the audience what would deter murders more

1) boiling in oil (or something similar) all the murderers CONVICTED of murder in the USA

2) guaranteeing that every single person who commits murder does 8 years in prison for a 5 year period

he claimed and I agree that the second choice would. Why? because most people who actually premeditate murder figure they won't get caught. Now if there was five years of every single murderer getting 8 years of prison, it would convince all but the most brain dead criminals that they will be caught and punished.

Brings up an interesting thing I read a few months ago regarding Chicago. By memory: 800 murders per year, over 500 unsolved or some ungodly horrible stat like that. It's no wonder people are killing each other at such high rates. No one gets caught.

Whoa...it's even worse than I remember it.

As violence rises, an increasing number of shootings and murders are going unsolved. Through 28 August, the police department had only made arrests in 73 of the nearly 2,000 non-fatal shooting incidents so far this year – or just under 4%, according to a department spokesman.

The clearance rate for murders is not much better....Police have only made arrests in about 16% of fatal shootings through 28 August this year, according to a department spokesperson. Through June, the clearance rate for all murders was 22.2%. That’s lower than last year’s rate of 30.4%, and dramatically lower than the national average of 64.5%, according to the most recent available national FBI data.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/04/chicago-gun-violence-unsolved-murders-deadly-year
 
Brings up an interesting thing I read a few months ago regarding Chicago. By memory: 800 murders per year, over 500 unsolved or some ungodly horrible stat like that. It's no wonder people are killing each other at such high rates. No one gets caught.

Whoa...it's even worse than I remember it.

There are lots of reasons for that

1) the "don't snitch" culture in many areas where those murders take place

2) mopes killing mopes. When a gangbanger gets whacked, his confederates generally don't call the police. They get even without seeking recourse to the law

3) even people who might not be mopes, are often afraid to testify or cooperate with the police

4) and frankly, when a mope whacks a mope, lots of people figure good riddance and aren't going to call the po po
 
Brings up an interesting thing I read a few months ago regarding Chicago. By memory: 800 murders per year, over 500 unsolved or some ungodly horrible stat like that. It's no wonder people are killing each other at such high rates. No one gets caught.

Whoa...it's even worse than I remember it.

Yea it's a nightmare. You asked why we will not admit to a "gun violence problem?" That is your answer. It's just a violence problem and guns are just part of it. It stems from one place... Highly populated gang infested inner city slums. If we could clean that up? The crime rate in general would drop to levels you see in most Western nations with severe gun laws. Our "gun culture" is not the problem... It's "gang culture."

Will this stop all gun crime? Of course not. Mental health and many other issues drive gun crime. We however have an obligation to protect our rights while addressing the real problem in our inner cities.
 
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Why are you asking me? It's your article and it supports my opinion. Here it is again...

The "call-ins" are based on the idea that the certainty of punishment matters more than the severity of punishment; if you communicate clearly with the gang-involved people what's at stake, they'll think twice.

I have already made my case. You need to post evidence that backs up the severity of the punishment claim. So far you have backed up my theory.

Now as for your assertion that "if there is no fear of punishment" which I never said. I said there is no correlation. Huge difference.

So your assertion is that the severity of a punishment does not deter anyone? So fining someone $20.00 and sentencing them to 1 week of home arrest should be sufficient to deter a straw purchase?
 
With less than a 20% solve rate for homicides, most perps probably act as if there was no law against murder. Hell, the 1 guy in 5 getting caught is just unlucky or extremely dumb.
 
So your assertion is that the severity of a punishment does not deter anyone?

Straw man...

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

Hmmm? I guess you missed this???

Now as for your assertion that "if there is no fear of punishment" which I never said. I said there is no correlation. Huge difference.

So fining someone $20.00 and sentencing them to 1 week of home arrest should be sufficient to deter a straw purchase?

Appeal to Ridicule...

The Appeal to Ridicule is a fallacy in which ridicule or mockery is substituted for evidence in an "argument."

I guess the punishment fitting the crime is over your head?
 
A rational person would have just let this thread die, but...

First, as I mentioned many times, I am not against guns. I have them; I have had loaded guns in a corner of each room in the farmhouse I lived in where the nearest neighbor was 2 miles away; I know for a fact that my wife's aunt would be alive today if she was armed with one, and I also have solid reason to presume my buddy's neighbor would not have been so easily killed if she had one in her apartment. But, here's my general take.

Of the roughly 10 people I know who have been murdered, only two were stabbed or beaten to death. The rest were shot. This tracks well with our national statistics: people are killed by guns far more often than by other means. Here's another one. I know at least 5 people who were stabbed that survived. Only one died, and that was more fluke than anything else, he was unlucky enough to be stabbed in the heart. I know no one who was shot that survived.

What do all my gun killings share in common? Opportunity, an easy means to kill rather than walk away. Got a gun, killing is made easy.

The first killing happened in a hospital after a bar fight. The shooter got his ass beat and sought revenge by bringing a gun to the hospital where my buddy's brother was getting a knife wound stitched up. No gun, no way he even tries exacting revenge in a hospital, much less manages to shoot the guy dead.

The last killing was a burglary gone bad. Two mopes enter my friend's home late at night looking for money and/or prescription drugs. He's asleep. They are armed. He wakes up. One of the mopes shoots him dead as he tries dialing 911. A neighbor hears the commotion. She makes the mistake to letting her presence be known. One of the mopes chases her down, shoots her dead in her apartment after kicking in the door. No gun, no one gets killed.
 
Straw man...

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

Hmmm? I guess you missed this???





Appeal to Ridicule...

The Appeal to Ridicule is a fallacy in which ridicule or mockery is substituted for evidence in an "argument."

I guess the punishment fitting the crime is over your head?

So you resort to the old fallacy fallacy. I am trying to point out that deterrence is a combination of the two Captain Fallacy; likelihood of getting caught and severity of the punishment. Both parts affect the likelihood of any particular person committing a crime differently.
 
So you resort to the old fallacy fallacy. I am trying to point out that deterrence is a combination of the two Captain Fallacy; likelihood of getting caught and severity of the punishment. Both parts affect the likelihood of any particular person committing a crime differently.

No Bret, I am pointing out you have no argument and are resorting to fallacy arguments. My argument has not changed and yours is still invalid and backed up by nothing. Even your own source as I have pointed out at least twice now, supports my conclusion rather than your own. None of the evidence shows severity of punishment has anything other than a minuscule effect as a deterrent. Which renders your argument moot.

So with no evidence supporting your argument, I reject it out of hand and will go with the data presented.
 
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A rational person would have just let this thread die, but...

First, as I mentioned many times, I am not against guns. I have them; I have had loaded guns in a corner of each room in the farmhouse I lived in where the nearest neighbor was 2 miles away; I know for a fact that my wife's aunt would be alive today if she was armed with one, and I also have solid reason to presume my buddy's neighbor would not have been so easily killed if she had one in her apartment. But, here's my general take.

Of the roughly 10 people I know who have been murdered, only two were stabbed or beaten to death. The rest were shot. This tracks well with our national statistics: people are killed by guns far more often than by other means. Here's another one. I know at least 5 people who were stabbed that survived. Only one died, and that was more fluke than anything else, he was unlucky enough to be stabbed in the heart. I know no one who was shot that survived.

What do all my gun killings share in common? Opportunity, an easy means to kill rather than walk away. Got a gun, killing is made easy.

The first killing happened in a hospital after a bar fight. The shooter got his ass beat and sought revenge by bringing a gun to the hospital where my buddy's brother was getting a knife wound stitched up. No gun, no way he even tries exacting revenge in a hospital, much less manages to shoot the guy dead.

The last killing was a burglary gone bad. Two mopes enter my friend's home late at night looking for money and/or prescription drugs. He's asleep. They are armed. He wakes up. One of the mopes shoots him dead as he tries dialing 911. A neighbor hears the commotion. She makes the mistake to letting her presence be known. One of the mopes chases her down, shoots her dead in her apartment after kicking in the door. No gun, no one gets killed.

I am 54 years old. Ex military and ex LEO. I know personally one person killed or murdered with a gun. I know one person who was stabbed and lived. This begs the question...

Where the **** do you live to be around that many murders, stabbings etc??? I lived in the ghetto's of Chicago and we did not see that level of violence.

I am going to say right now I really don't believe it as that is ridicules for a civilian. On top of that your anecdotal evidence as I have said before means nothing. It can't be proved or disproved.

Then to top it off you you open with "I am not against guns." and close with "No gun, no one gets killed."

Now considering your history on this issue here at DP, do you really expect anyone to take that seriously?
 
No Bret, I am pointing out you have no argument and are resorting to fallacy arguments. My argument has not changed and yours is still invalid and backed up by nothing. Even your own source as I have pointed out at least twice now, supports my conclusion rather than your own. None of the evidence shows severity of punishment has anything other than a minuscule effect as a deterrent. Which renders your argument moot.

So with no evidence supporting your argument, I reject it out of hand and will go with the data presented.

Studies on incarceration as crime deterrence, rather than simply punishment, show that the effect isn't cut and dried:



"The economists take advantage of an Italian policy reform in 2006, where more than a third of the Italian prison population was released. Their get-out-of-jail-free card came with one caveat: if they were caught breaking the law again, their unserved sentence would be automatically added to the new one. This was a boon for the economists, as it meant that otherwise very similar people faced gentler or harsher sentences for future crimes, depending on how much time they had left on their existing sentence (i.e. when they had committed their original crime). The economists combined this with information on reoffending rates, to see if people with harsher sentences were less likely to reoffend.

They found that the convicts did seem to respond to the harsher sentences. They estimated that previously convicted criminals discount the future at a rate of 0.74: in other words, they care about events in one year’s time around three quarters as much as events today. This compares to discount rates of around 0.95 more common in the population at large. The economists compare different groups; the highly educated are most sensitive to heftier sentences, while immigrants and drug-offenders are least sensitive. "

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2016/03/criminal-justice

"1. The certainty of being caught is a vastly more powerful deterrent than the punishment.
Research shows clearly that the chance of being caught is a vastly more effective deterrent than even draconian punishment."

https://nij.gov/five-things/pages/deterrence.aspx

Given the abysmal crime clearance rates below, how do we better our enforcement of laws to have effective crime deterrence?

2004_UCR_crime_clearance.jpg
 
Studies on incarceration as crime deterrence, rather than simply punishment, show that the effect isn't cut and dried:



"The economists take advantage of an Italian policy reform in 2006, where more than a third of the Italian prison population was released. Their get-out-of-jail-free card came with one caveat: if they were caught breaking the law again, their unserved sentence would be automatically added to the new one. This was a boon for the economists, as it meant that otherwise very similar people faced gentler or harsher sentences for future crimes, depending on how much time they had left on their existing sentence (i.e. when they had committed their original crime). The economists combined this with information on reoffending rates, to see if people with harsher sentences were less likely to reoffend.

They found that the convicts did seem to respond to the harsher sentences. They estimated that previously convicted criminals discount the future at a rate of 0.74: in other words, they care about events in one year’s time around three quarters as much as events today. This compares to discount rates of around 0.95 more common in the population at large. The economists compare different groups; the highly educated are most sensitive to heftier sentences, while immigrants and drug-offenders are least sensitive. "

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2016/03/criminal-justice

"1. The certainty of being caught is a vastly more powerful deterrent than the punishment.
Research shows clearly that the chance of being caught is a vastly more effective deterrent than even draconian punishment."

https://nij.gov/five-things/pages/deterrence.aspx

Given the abysmal crime clearance rates below, how do we better our enforcement of laws to have effective crime deterrence?

View attachment 67218960

And you just again made my point for me...

"1. The certainty of being caught is a vastly more powerful deterrent than the punishment.
Research shows clearly that the chance of being caught is a vastly more effective deterrent than even draconian punishment.
"

So again, I will go with the evidence. I never said anything about it being the only deterrent or not effective at all. I said it's effect on crime is minimal as all of the evidence presented so far suggests.

I don't know, but severe sentencing is not much of a deterrent. Most gun crime are crimes of passion, so thought of consequences has almost nothing to do with it.
 
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And you just again made my point for me...

"1. The certainty of being caught is a vastly more powerful deterrent than the punishment.
Research shows clearly that the chance of being caught is a vastly more effective deterrent than even draconian punishment.
"

So again, I will go with the evidence. I never said anything about it being the only deterrent or not effective at all. I said it's effect on crime is minimal as all of the evidence presented so far suggests.

I wasn't trying to counter the point about the effect of incarceration on deterrence. However, the Italian study did indicate more than a minuscule effect on deterrence for those previously incarcerated. That was an interesting experiment. Likewise the point that after age 35 sentence length correlates to a higher effectiveness of deterrence against crime.
 
I wasn't trying to counter the point about the effect of incarceration on deterrence. However, the Italian study did indicate more than a minuscule effect on deterrence for those previously incarcerated. That was an interesting experiment. Likewise the point that after age 35 sentence length correlates to a higher effectiveness of deterrence against crime.

I am going to disagree again. It is minuscule, but yes it is interesting. Look here...

They found that the convicts did seem to respond to the harsher sentences. They estimated that previously convicted criminals discount the future at a rate of 0.74: in other words, they care about events in one year’s time around three quarters as much as events today. This compares to discount rates of around 0.95 more common in the population at large. The economists compare different groups; the highly educated are most sensitive to heftier sentences, while immigrants and drug-offenders are least sensitive. "

The majority of gun crime is in the inner cities. How many gang members are well educated? How many are not drug users? Then we are talking about what seems to be a 0.95 in the prison population? Less than one percent, and you think that is not minuscule, lol.
 
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