• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Define terms

ecofarm said:
I don't even know what that means. I'm a commando alright, certified. I ain't no remf shooting at airplanes. And I know what an assault weapon is. It's not "a scary looking rifle".
Click to expand...

One last chance.....EIB or CIB? Heard of those?
 
Casper said:
That is why I added my wooden Ruger Ranch rifle to the collection, it is a "Friendly" color, all nice and soft and woody, (left that door wide open didn't I, opps), not like his evil brothers, all Black and Scary. But not sure where that leaves my Green M1A, but counselling might be required to make them feel loved.
Boo!
Click to expand...
Would this be the Ruger mini 14? (?)
 
ecofarm said:
So you got your wings from Ft. Benning (whatever unit runs the school), not the 82nd, right? I figured it's possible the 82nd ran a school in country.
Click to expand...

I have no idea what on earth you are babbling about. Care to be coherent in your responses?
 
Casper said:
I have no idea what on earth you are babbling about. Care to be coherent in your responses?
Click to expand...

You didn't get your wings from the 82nd unless the 82nd set up a school during deployment (which I doubt ever happened, but I suppose it's possible).

Jump school is at Ft. Benning and is run by whatever unit runs the jump school. The 82nd is at Ft. Bragg and does not run a jump school.

So, claiming you got your wings from the 82nd doesn't make sense, unless the 82nd set up a school that I've never heard of somewhere.
 
Casper said:
Why, yes it would, doesn't look scary at all, unless you change stocks. Fine rifle.
Click to expand...
Ah, a fine carbine, if only I was not limited to BP. Now I remember, they called it a "Ranch Hand" I lusted over that gun in the pawn shop, also any carbine with a revolver action. I really dig a carbine that can chamber a pistol round.
 
faithful_servant said:
Black and scary-looking.
Click to expand...

It's a sexy-looking fashion statement that will get you grinned at if you run into me or my friends in the bush.
Guns are tools and weapons for most people but fashion accessories for some.
 
ecofarm said:
You didn't get your wings from the 82nd unless the 82nd set up a school during deployment (which I doubt ever happened, but I suppose it's possible).

Jump school is at Ft. Benning and is run by whatever unit runs the jump school. The 82nd is at Ft. Bragg and does not run a jump school.

So, claiming you got your wings from the 82nd doesn't make sense, unless the 82nd set up a school that I've never heard of somewhere.
Click to expand...

Oh good Fing grief, I did not wear the 82nd patch, never said I did, we just went to jump school at Benning which is 82nd turf. If you are looking to play some dumbarse game here then go off and play with someone that is interested. What was your MOS, REMF is my guess at this point.
 
Casper said:
Oh good Fing grief, I did not wear the 82nd patch, never said I did, we just went to jump school at Benning which is 82nd turf.
Click to expand...

Benning is not 82nd turf. Bragg is.

You did not get your wings from the 82nd. You got them from whatever unit runs the jump school at Benning. The 82nd does not run a jump school.

If you are looking to play some dumbarse game here then go off and play with someone that is interested. What was your MOS, REMF is my guess at this point.
Click to expand...

11H(a)

I already said, Delta company, 3rd Bat. of the 505th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 82nd. You're the remf.
 
ecofarm said:
Benning is not 82nd turf. Bragg is.

You did not get your wings from the 82nd. You got them from whatever unit runs the jump school at Benning. The 82nd does not run a jump school.



11H(a)

I already said, Delta company, 3rd Bat. of the 505th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 82nd. You're the remf.
Click to expand...

So, who's dick is longer? Enquiring minds want to know.
 
Casper said:
Sorry, but Wrong. Take if from me, a semi auto "sporting rifle" can very well be used to assault a position, in fact most good shooters can shoot a semi auto riffle as fast as a full auto, especially since a smart shooter using a select fire (full auto) weapon does not simply hold the trigger until they run out of bullets they use bursts. The only times full auto is even useful is when clearing a building or used as covering fire to either provide cover for an egress or others attacking a strong point, any other time it is a waste of ammo. Maybe you are thinking something more along the lines of a belt fed firearm and even then there is a limit. Rarely is the spray and pray method more useful, good marksmanship almost always wins out.
Click to expand...

you are missing the point he was making. The assault rifle concept was developed to create an individual infantry weapon that could serve several roles-as a battle rifle, an SMG and to allow several soldiers to provide suppressive fire on a fixed position when a crew served machine gun was not available-which was often the case in the fast moving street fighting in Stalingrad etc.
 
Rexedgar said:
One last chance.....EIB or CIB? Heard of those?
Click to expand...

why the waste of bandwidth, Eco's credentials are pretty well known here and no one disputes them
 
TurtleDude said:
you are missing the point he was making. The assault rifle concept was developed to create an individual infantry weapon that could serve several roles-as a battle rifle, an SMG and to allow several soldiers to provide suppressive fire on a fixed position when a crew served machine gun was not available-which was often the case in the fast moving street fighting in Stalingrad etc.
Click to expand...

I was not arguing that a select fire rifle does not have it's place, it is a very good option in the right situations, which are actually fairly rare. My point is that being select fire is not what defines an assault rifle, if there really is any such thing to begin with, and we both know that AR does not actually stand for Assault Rifle. Oh and SMG's are not Rifles, that is another category of firearms all together.
 
Casper said:
I was not arguing that a select fire rifle does not have it's place, it is a very good option in the right situations, which are actually fairly rare. My point is that being select fire is not what defines an assault rifle, if there really is any such thing to begin with, and we both know that AR does not actually stand for Assault Rifle. Oh and SMG's are not Rifles, that is another category of firearms all together.
Click to expand...

actually, what defines an assault rifle are three characteristics

1) select fire capability

2) carbine size

3)intermediate cartridge
 
Casper said:
I was not arguing that a select fire rifle does not have it's place, it is a very good option in the right situations, which are actually fairly rare. My point is that being select fire is not what defines an assault rifle, if there really is any such thing to begin with,
Click to expand...

You should have this discussion with Robert Trifiletti, former Chief of the Army’s Light Armament Division at Picatinny Arsenal.
"Part of the memorandum received from the Army’s Trifiletti stated: “SUBJECT: Freedom of Information Jay H. Greenblatt & Associates “Assault Rifle”.

1. This office researched the definition of the term “assault rifle” by identifying and locating official Department of Defense (DOD) and Department of Army (DA) publications on ordinance technical terminology, DOD/DA technical small arms publications or definitions of military terms.
2. The definition of an “assault rifle” is “Assault rifles are short, compact, select-fire (i.e. both semiautomatic and full-automatic) weapons that fire a cartridge intermediate in power between submachinegun and rifle cartridges.

Since 1944, military firearms that fit this general description and general design have sometimes been labeled as an “assault rifle. Some civilian versions of military look-alike rifle have been erroneously labeled as “assault rifles” because they generally fit the description, however, since the civilian rifles have been modified internally to eliminate the selective fire capability, they are not “assault rifles”.


http://www.tulprpc.org/attachments/File/Army_Gives_Definition_Of_Assault_Rifle.pdf
 
TurtleDude said:
actually, what defines an assault rifle are three characteristics

1) select fire capability

2) carbine size

3)intermediate cartridge
Click to expand...

So per those criteria:
An M1A is or any semi auto AR 10 or 15 not an "assault rifle", not select fire

A M16 with a 20" barrel is not a "assault rifle", too long

An M4 with a .223/5.56 cartridge is not a "assault rifle", too small, so maybe a 7.62 would better fit the term, if short (carbine length, 16" or less) and has select fire, I think an AK would be one of the few that fit bill and even then I think we are making it up as we go.

Ok...................

Always get tricky when anyone tries actually defining down to the detail what defines an assault rifle. Funny thing, they did not even use, nor had we heard, the term assault rifle used back in my day, me thinks it is a made up term for the ignorant to label something as supposedly a "military" weapon, then take them away under some BS law. I must say that I do like the new term, modern sporting rifle far better and those that have the extra option of select fire as simply an upgrade, looking at it that way then we should be able to own them without paying Uncle Sam his extortion fee.
 
Casper said:
So per those criteria:
An M1A is or any semi auto AR 10 or 15 not an "assault rifle", not select fire

A M16 with a 20" barrel is not a "assault rifle", too long

An M4 with a .223/5.56 cartridge is not a "assault rifle", too small, so maybe a 7.62 would better fit the term, if short (carbine length, 16" or less) and has select fire, I think an AK would be one of the few that fit bill and even then I think we are making it up as we go.

Ok...................

Always get tricky when anyone tries actually defining down to the detail what defines an assault rifle. Funny thing, they did not even use, nor had we heard, the term assault rifle used back in my day, me thinks it is a made up term for the ignorant to label something as supposedly a "military" weapon, then take them away under some BS law. I must say that I do like the new term, modern sporting rifle far better and those that have the extra option of select fire as simply an upgrade, looking at it that way then we should be able to own them without paying Uncle Sam his extortion fee.
Click to expand...

if it doesn't have the giggle switch its not an assault rifle

applying "assault" to any semi auto rifle, pistol or shotgun is nothing more than the bannerrhoid movement attempts to demonize such firearms by getting the slow witted to think that those firearms are intended to be used for "criminal assault"
 
Casper said:
So per those criteria:
An M1A is or any semi auto AR 10 or 15 not an "assault rifle", not select fire
Click to expand...

Correct

A M16 with a 20" barrel is not a "assault rifle", too long
Click to expand...

The previous three infantry rifles for the US military had barrels of 24", 24" and 22", respectively. The 20" M16 barrel is shorter. I would say "typically" shorter, just to account for the odd exception.

An M4 with a .223/5.56 cartridge is not a "assault rifle", too small
Click to expand...
Why is 5.56mm "too small"? It's certainly intermediate between the .30ish caliber round used in previous infantry rifles, and more powerful than the pistol rounds typically used in SMGs.

, so maybe a 7.62 would better fit the term, if short (carbine length, 16" or less) and has select fire, I think an AK would be one of the few that fit bill and even then I think we are making it up as we go.


Always get tricky when anyone tries actually defining down to the detail what defines an assault rifle. Funny thing, they did not even use, nor had we heard, the term assault rifle used back in my day, me thinks it is a made up term for the ignorant to label something as supposedly a "military" weapon, then take them away under some BS law.
Click to expand...

I'd say it was made up, by the Germans in WWII, but not to label something ignorantly. That would be the term "assault weapon".

I must say that I do like the new term, modern sporting rifle far better and those that have the extra option of select fire as simply an upgrade, looking at it that way then we should be able to own them without paying Uncle Sam his extortion fee.
Click to expand...

If Miller was truly enforced, then yes, we should have access to selective fire rifles. Personally, I've no need or desire for one, but I'd be happy if the NFA went away in its entirety.
 
Rucker61 said:
You should have this discussion with Robert Trifiletti, former Chief of the Army’s Light Armament Division at Picatinny Arsenal.
"Part of the memorandum received from the Army’s Trifiletti stated: “SUBJECT: Freedom of Information Jay H. Greenblatt & Associates “Assault Rifle”.

1. This office researched the definition of the term “assault rifle” by identifying and locating official Department of Defense (DOD) and Department of Army (DA) publications on ordinance technical terminology, DOD/DA technical small arms publications or definitions of military terms.
2. The definition of an “assault rifle” is “Assault rifles are short, compact, select-fire (i.e. both semiautomatic and full-automatic) weapons that fire a cartridge intermediate in power between submachinegun and rifle cartridges.

Since 1944, military firearms that fit this general description and general design have sometimes been labeled as an “assault rifle. Some civilian versions of military look-alike rifle have been erroneously labeled as “assault rifles” because they generally fit the description, however, s ince the civilian rifles have been modified internally to eliminate the selective fire capability, they are not “assault rifles”.


http://www.tulprpc.org/attachments/File/Army_Gives_Definition_Of_Assault_Rifle.pdf
Click to expand...
Not arguing that they are assault rifles. Sorry I never heard the term used in 8 years in the Army, just was never used, either officially or in causal conversation. A .223/5.56 is a glorified .22, hence not an intermediate caliber, also why so many dislike the M16/M4, too small in their opinions, even though I agree with it's effectiveness, hence why I own both 5.56mm and 7.62 NATO firearms.
I personally think it comes down more to a descriptor of use of the firearm than the caliber, barrel length, or ability to fire in a select fire mode, if I rush a position firing the whole way it is called an assault, if I use the same weapon to fire at individual targets of opportunity it is not an assault. Anyway, as I said to me the term is fairly meaningless, and if I was going to assault a position I would far rather have an M60 or another link fed weapon, something with actual kick butt capability.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom