• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Take Race Into Account, and the Case for Gun Control Falls Apart

Status
Not open for further replies.

phattonez

Catholic
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
30,870
Reaction score
4,246
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Random Critical Analysis said:
The states with high gun ownership and/or high gun deaths differ in more than just gun policy or attitudes towards guns. State gun policy and, perhaps more importantly, individual gun ownership rates are hardly exogenous; it says something about the people in those states/households. Changing West Virginia’s guns laws, whatever they happen to be, likely won’t make West Virginians behave like Minnesotans and (my guess) would have a much lesser effect on homicide rates than some might presume based on naive interpretations of simple correlations.


https://randomcriticalanalysis.wordpress.com/2015/06/21/a-quick-post-on-gun-related-homicides/

When you look at gun homicides by race, there's actual not much of a correlation at all. In fact, it's demographics that's lurking behind the murders.
 
[/FONT][/COLOR]https://randomcriticalanalysis.wordpress.com/2015/06/21/a-quick-post-on-gun-related-homicides/

When you look at gun homicides by race, there's actual not much of a correlation at all. In fact, it's demographics that's lurking behind the murders.

And digging even deeper, we see it's really linked to poverty, and to go one more, urban poverty leads to an uptick in gang violence... which is the end result of the demographic argument.
 
[/FONT][/COLOR]https://randomcriticalanalysis.wordpress.com/2015/06/21/a-quick-post-on-gun-related-homicides/
When you look at gun homicides by race, there's actual not much of a correlation at all. In fact, it's demographics that's lurking behind the murders.
What?
Asked and Answered:
'Gun Problem'?

The article doesn't show that at all. It's more a 'State' analysis.
Blacks are NOT half the country's poor, but they are half the Murderers.

I've posted the actual stats scores of times.
And it's true Not just in the USA, but Worldwide.

1. Blacks are 13% of the USA population.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide
Homicide

According to the US Department of Justice, blacks accounted for 52.5% of homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with whites 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for Blacks was almost 8 times higher than whites (per 100,000), and the victim rate 6 times higher (per 100,000).
[.......]
Robbery

According to the National Crime Victimization Survey in 2002, the black arrest rate for robbery was 8.55 times Higher than whites,and blacks were 16 times more likely to be incarcerated for robbery than non-Hispanic whites. Robberies with White victims and Black offenders were more than 12 Times more common than the reverse.[38][39]​

There are Other poverty stricken groups in the USA and UK, but one group is exponentially more likely to commit Violent crime.
ie
In Chinatown - NYC and elsewhere - (where residents are oft packed 5 in a room and work for nothing), You'd be hard pressed to get shot/robbed, as East Asians commit crime at 1/4 the White Rate, whereas Blacks commit violent crime at 5-10 times that rate.

2. How about, ie, London? No Slavery.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_Kingdom#Race_and_crime_in_London

Race and crime in London

Figures from the Office for National Statistics showed that in 2007 an estimated 10.6% of London's population of 7,556,900 were Black.[23]
[.......]
In June 2010 The Sunday Telegraph, through a Freedom of Information Act request, obtained statistics on accusations of crime broken down by race from the Metropolitan Police Service.[2] The figures showed that the Majority of males who were accused of Violent crimes in 2009–10 were Black.
Of the recorded 18,091 such accusations against males, 54% accused of street crimes were black; for robbery, 59%; and for gun crimes, 67%.[25] Robbery, drug use, and gang violence have been associated with black people since the 1960s.[26] In the 1980s and 1990s, the police associated robbery with black people. In 1995, the Metropolitan Police commissioner Paul Condon said that the majority of robberies in London were committed by black people.[27]
[......]
In London in 2006, 75% of the victims of Gun crime and 79% of the suspects were "from the African/Caribbean community."[31]​

Breathtaking, but not Unprecedented.
Nearly 80% of Gun crimes in London are committed by Black Englishmen!
Who would have guessed!
Who would tell you the truth even if they knew, or looked? Not many here.
 
Last edited:
[/FONT][/COLOR]https://randomcriticalanalysis.wordpress.com/2015/06/21/a-quick-post-on-gun-related-homicides/
When you look at gun homicides by race, there's actual not much of a correlation at all. In fact, it's demographics that's lurking behind the murders.
Part 2

1. 89% of all Crime in NYC Nonwhite
March 4, 2016 - by A.N. Wyatte
89% of all Crime in NYC Nonwhite - The New Observer

Nonwhites commit 89% of all crime in New York City, including 97.7% of all shootings, 96% of all robberies, 94.2% of all Murders, 94.9% of all Juvenile Felony and Misdemeanor crimes, and 90.6% of all rapes.

These figures are contained in the New York City Police Department’s latest “Crime and Enforcement Activity in New York City” report, which covers the dates January 1 to December 31, 2015. It can be found on the New York Government website here (PDF).
NYPD Report - Crime and Enforcement Activity in New York City

The report is almost Unique in present-day America because it Openly presents statistics on race and crime compiled from the New York City Police Department’s records management system—statistics that are most often Suppressed by other police departments.

In addition, the NYPD breaks down the racial categories correctly, listing “Hispanic” separately instead of grouping it together with “white,” which is what most of the US government does (thereby artificially inflating the “white” crime levels).​


2. 'Color of Crime' update/summary excerpts
The Color of Crime | American Renaissance

Crime rates

There are dramatic race differences in crime rates. Asians have the Lowest rates, followed by whites, and then Hispanics. Blacks have notably high crime rates. This pattern holds true for virtually all crime categories and for virtually all age groups. In 2013, a black was Six times more likely than a non-black to commit murder, and 12 times more likely to murder someone of another race than to be murdered by someone of another race.
......
Urban centers

In 2014 in New York City, a black was 31 times more likely than a white to be arrested for Murder, and a Hispanic was 12.4 times more likely. For the crime of “shooting”—defined as firing a Bullet that hits someone—a black was 98.4 times more likely than a white to be arrested, and a Hispanic was 23.6 times more likely.

If New York City were all white, the Murder rate would drop by 91%, the robbery rate by 81%, and the Shootings rate by 97%.

In an all-white Chicago, Murder would decline 90%, rape by 81%, and robbery by 90%.
.....​
 
Last edited:
Young black males are about seven percent of the general population and they kill about 43% of the cops that are killed and they commit over half of all murders committed in the U.S.

Keep in mind that about a third of that seven percent are in prison and thus out of the statistical race.

Young black males are clearly the most dangerous creatures in existence.

What do we do to solve this problem? Give them jobs? It's been tried. They get fired.

Building more prisons seems to be the only current possibility.

:2usflag:
 
3 posts in and we get borderline racist. Great job!

So it's racist to argue against a point that someone brought up? I just have to agree that poverty is the cause, even though the data don't support that, or else I'm racist? That's not really intellectual.
 
Part 2

1. 89% of all Crime in NYC Nonwhite
March 4, 2016 - by A.N. Wyatte
89% of all Crime in NYC Nonwhite - The New Observer

Nonwhites commit 89% of all crime in New York City, including 97.7% of all shootings, 96% of all robberies, 94.2% of all Murders, 94.9% of all Juvenile Felony and Misdemeanor crimes, and 90.6% of all rapes.

These figures are contained in the New York City Police Department’s latest “Crime and Enforcement Activity in New York City” report, which covers the dates January 1 to December 31, 2015. It can be found on the New York Government website here (PDF).
NYPD Report - Crime and Enforcement Activity in New York City

The report is almost Unique in present-day America because it Openly presents statistics on race and crime compiled from the New York City Police Department’s records management system—statistics that are most often Suppressed by other police departments.

In addition, the NYPD breaks down the racial categories correctly, listing “Hispanic” separately instead of grouping it together with “white,” which is what most of the US government does (thereby artificially inflating the “white” crime levels).​


2. 'Color of Crime' update/summary excerpts
The Color of Crime | American Renaissance

Crime rates

There are dramatic race differences in crime rates. Asians have the Lowest rates, followed by whites, and then Hispanics. Blacks have notably high crime rates. This pattern holds true for virtually all crime categories and for virtually all age groups. In 2013, a black was Six times more likely than a non-black to commit murder, and 12 times more likely to murder someone of another race than to be murdered by someone of another race.
......
Urban centers

In 2014 in New York City, a black was 31 times more likely than a white to be arrested for Murder, and a Hispanic was 12.4 times more likely. For the crime of “shooting”—defined as firing a Bullet that hits someone—a black was 98.4 times more likely than a white to be arrested, and a Hispanic was 23.6 times more likely.

If New York City were all white, the Murder rate would drop by 91%, the robbery rate by 81%, and the Shootings rate by 97%.

In an all-white Chicago, Murder would decline 90%, rape by 81%, and robbery by 90%.
.....​

Oh boy. Did you seriously just go there?

This fantasy that if we just ethnically cleanse the cities crime will go away is laughable.

Does Al Capone ring any bells? John Dillinger? The Barkers? Bonnie and Clyde? Machine Gun Kelly? Bugs Moran? Frank Nitti and Jack McGurn? The Gusenbergs?
 
Last edited:
Oh boy. Did you seriously just go there?
This fantasy that if we just ethnically cleanse the cities crime will go away is laughable.
Does Al Capone ring any bells? John Dillinger? The Barkers? Bonnie and Clyde? Machine Gun Kelly? Bugs Moran? Frank Nitti and Jack McGurn? The Gusenbergs?
Yep, I went there. (tho Not suggesting 'ethnic cleansing', only showing the isolated/lopsided stats)
"there" being the Truth.
Two posts full, and more available.

You foisted silly 'debate by Anecdote' instead of statistical truth.
And pathetically, you had to go back near a century even to fabricate that silly anecdote.
Nothing post-1950.
Blacks probably couldn't even buy a gun until the 1970s.
But with freedom came weapons, and lotsa fatherless kids that use them.
 
Last edited:
Oh boy. Did you seriously just go there?

This fantasy that if we just ethnically cleanse the cities crime will go away is laughable.

Does Al Capone ring any bells? John Dillinger? The Barkers? Bonnie and Clyde? Machine Gun Kelly? Bugs Moran? Frank Nitti and Jack McGurn? The Gusenbergs?

Go where? To the facts?
 
Yep, I went there. (ooooh!)
"there" being the Truth.
You foisted silly 'debate by Anecdote' instead of statistical truth.
And pathetically, you had to go back near a century even to fabricate that silly anecdote.
You got anyone post-1950?
Blacks probably couldn't even buy a gun until the 1970s.

Fabricate? Buddy, I hate to break it to you, but all these guys were real. The point was that even if your dream of an all white Chicago or New York came true, crime wouldn't go away.

Pathetically, you are so desperate to further your agenda you missed the big picture.

As for your other question.....I've got plenty, but I'd hate to waste a chance to get you to take off that Klan hood and educate yourself.

Seriously pal, your insinuation that there haven't been white crime lords or famous gangsters in almost a hundred years is hilarious.

Here are some to get you started.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitey_Bulger

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vito_Genovese

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Giancana

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Lucchese

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Greene

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Licata_(mobster)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_Spillane_(mobster)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosko_Radonjich

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyacheslav_Ivankov

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Gigante

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D'Amato

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Corallo
 
Fabricate? Buddy, I hate to break it to you, but all these guys were real. The point was that even if your dream of an all white Chicago or New York came true, crime wouldn't go away.
Pathetically, you are so desperate to further your agenda you missed the big picture.
As for your other question.....I've got plenty, but I'd hate to waste a chance to get you to take off that Klan hood and educate yourself.

Seriously pal, your insinuation that there haven't been white crime lords or famous gangsters in almost a hundred years is hilarious.
Here are some to get you started.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitey_Bulger
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vito_Genovese
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Giancana
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Lucchese
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Greene
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Licata_(mobster)
...
LOL
You still have a big Logic Problem.
Posting Famous white Criminals/Mobsters does NOT change the stats....and even humoring your fallacious BS, is still NOT current. None of those people shot anyone in the last 20 years, except 'Bosko'.
WTF is that?
An [Unlinked] Google/Wiki search for 'Mobster'?
That supposedly 'refutes' a statistical truth.. and who is in half our jail cells?
Oooph!
 
Last edited:
LOL
You still have a big Logic Problem.
Posting Famous white Criminals/Mobsters does NOT change the stats. (and even humoring your fallacious BS, is still NOT current.)

And you still are attempting to dodge the fact that even if we implemented your ethnic cleansing scheme(and then pretending that you are "just presenting the facts") crime would not go away.
 
And you still are attempting to dodge the fact that even if we implemented your ethnic cleansing scheme(and then pretending that you are "just presenting the facts") crime would not go away.
1. I posted NO ethnic cleansing scheme. I posted isolated stats.
2. I did, unfortunately, have to give you a lesson in debate, or rather, in simple common sense.
Posting [mainly] famous 1920-1980 Italian mobsters does Not change the outsized crime stats/violent crime RATE of Blacks, 5-8 times higher than that of Whites, and 20x-30x that of Asians, rich or poor.

Even posting the names of 1000, or 10,000, famous white mobsters/murderers wouldn't change those rates/truths.
Understand yet?
 
Last edited:
1. I posted NO ethnic cleansing scheme. I posted isolated stats.
2. I did, unfortunately, have to give you a lesson in debate, or rather, in simple common sense.
Posting [mainly] famous 1920-1980 Italian mobsters does Not change the outsized crime stats/violent crime RATE of Blacks, 5-8 times higher than that of Whites, and 20x-30x that of Asians, rich or poor.

Even posting the names of 1000, or 10,000, famous white mobsters/murderers wouldn't change those rates/truths.
Understand yet?

Bull****, buddy. There's no such thing as "isolated stats". You knew full well what you were advocating. That's why you posted about how in an "all white Chicago" crime would supposedly decrease by 90% or some bull****. Just because you aren't willing to admit what you mean in the light of day doesn't mean we can't read between the lines. Nobody is fooled by your claim that it's "just statistics".

And I'll give you a hint. You were whining that my list of a few of the more notorious crime lords of the Caucasian persuasion still wasn't "current" because they "hadn't shot anybody in the head in twenty years". Which, of course, shows a fundamental lack of understanding as to how crime families work. The boss orders hits; he doesn't personally conduct them. It's why he's the boss.

All you've gone is torpedo your own credibility, and the more you cling to your ethnic cleansing scheme, the less likely it is people' are going to listen to your fantasies.

So. Figure it out yet?

I'll spell it out for you.

Even if Chicago was all white, there'd still be a ****-ton of violent crime, because there are a lot of white criminals.
 
Can you quantify this?

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

Over roughly a fifteen year period, 729 people were murdered. Now, some of those weren't related to organized crime, but that's a far cry from the minimal crime the "all white Chicago" enthuasist seems to have in mind.

Keep in mind as well that murder doesn't make up the majority of the number of crimes committed. For every murder, there were probably a good dozen other cases of criminal activity, whether it was robbery, arson, assault, extortion, etc.
 
SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

Over roughly a fifteen year period, 729 people were murdered. Now, some of those weren't related to organized crime, but that's a far cry from the minimal crime the "all white Chicago" enthuasist seems to have in mind.

This is a study from last century. mbig seems to have an agenda, but I don't think that ethnic cleansing is part of it. What about, hypothetically, if the current violent crime rate in Chicago from black neighborhoods was reduced to that of the white neighborhoods? What would this "all-white" version of Chicago look like for a rate of violence?

Keep in mind as well that murder doesn't make up the majority of the number of crimes committed. For every murder, there were probably a good dozen other cases of criminal activity, whether it was robbery, arson, assault, extortion, etc.

True. The FBI has data for all of those, too.

In 2015, 69.7 percent of all individuals arrested were White, 26.6 percent were Black or African American, and 3.6 percent were of other races.
Of arrestees for whom ethnicity was reported, 18.4 percent were Hispanic.
Of all juveniles (persons under the age of 18) arrested in 2015, 62.9 percent were White, 33.9 percent were Black or African American, and 3.1 percent were of other races.
Of juvenile arrestees for whom ethnicity was reported, 22.8 percent were Hispanic.
Of all adults arrested in 2015, 70.4 percent were White, 26.0 percent were Black or African American, and 3.7 percent were of other races.
Of adult arrestees for whom ethnicity was reported, 18.0 were Hispanic.
White individuals were arrested more often for violent crimes than individuals of any other race and accounted for 60.1 percent of those arrests.
Of adults arrested for murder, 50.4 percent were Black or African American, 46.5 percent were White, and 3.1 percent were of other races.
Black or African American juveniles comprised 50.8 percent of all juveniles arrested for violent crimes. White juveniles accounted for 59.1 percent of all juveniles arrested for property crimes.
Of juveniles arrested for drug abuse violations, 75.0 percent were White.
White juveniles comprised 55.7 percent of juveniles arrested for aggravated assault and 60.5 percent of juveniles arrested for larceny-theft.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/table-43
 
Fabricate? Buddy, I hate to break it to you, but all these guys were real. The point was that even if your dream of an all white Chicago or New York came true, crime wouldn't go away.

Pathetically, you are so desperate to further your agenda you missed the big picture.

As for your other question.....I've got plenty, but I'd hate to waste a chance to get you to take off that Klan hood and educate yourself.

Seriously pal, your insinuation that there haven't been white crime lords or famous gangsters in almost a hundred years is hilarious.

Here are some to get you started.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitey_Bulger

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vito_Genovese

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Giancana

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Lucchese

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Greene

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Licata_(mobster)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_Spillane_(mobster)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosko_Radonjich

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyacheslav_Ivankov

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Gigante

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D'Amato

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Corallo

FYI, Micky Spillane was an author who wrote about a fictional detective named Mike Hammer.

BUT here some are some up to date stats from Chicago:

http://heyjackass.com/

And I want to draw your attention to the police shootings: In 2017, YTD is four killed, 3 wounded. So this BS about cops shooting blacks willy-nilly is a bunch of media hype.

BTW, do read "The Party Crashers" article...
 
This is a study from last century. mbig seems to have an agenda, but I don't think that ethnic cleansing is part of it. What about, hypothetically, if the current violent crime rate in Chicago from black neighborhoods was reduced to that of the white neighborhoods? What would this "all-white" version of Chicago look like for a rate of violence?



True. The FBI has data for all of those, too.

In 2015, 69.7 percent of all individuals arrested were White, 26.6 percent were Black or African American, and 3.6 percent were of other races.
Of arrestees for whom ethnicity was reported, 18.4 percent were Hispanic.
Of all juveniles (persons under the age of 18) arrested in 2015, 62.9 percent were White, 33.9 percent were Black or African American, and 3.1 percent were of other races.
Of juvenile arrestees for whom ethnicity was reported, 22.8 percent were Hispanic.
Of all adults arrested in 2015, 70.4 percent were White, 26.0 percent were Black or African American, and 3.7 percent were of other races.
Of adult arrestees for whom ethnicity was reported, 18.0 were Hispanic.
White individuals were arrested more often for violent crimes than individuals of any other race and accounted for 60.1 percent of those arrests.
Of adults arrested for murder, 50.4 percent were Black or African American, 46.5 percent were White, and 3.1 percent were of other races.
Black or African American juveniles comprised 50.8 percent of all juveniles arrested for violent crimes. White juveniles accounted for 59.1 percent of all juveniles arrested for property crimes.
Of juveniles arrested for drug abuse violations, 75.0 percent were White.
White juveniles comprised 55.7 percent of juveniles arrested for aggravated assault and 60.5 percent of juveniles arrested for larceny-theft.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/table-43

Well, yes. That's what I was talking about previously. mbig was talking about an all white Chicago, so I pointed out that even when the city didn't have very large populations of African Americans, at least comparatively to today's standards (there were some--- 40,000 in 1910, and an increasing amount after that) there was a still an high rate of crime.

And all of those stats help my point as well. Even if there was an "all white Chicago" crime would not go away.
 
FYI, Micky Spillane was an author who wrote about a fictional detective named Mike Hammer.

BUT here some are some up to date stats from Chicago:

2017 Stats | Chicago Murder, Crime & Mayhem | HeyJackass!

And I want to draw your attention to the police shootings: In 2017, YTD is four killed, 3 wounded. So this BS about cops shooting blacks willy-nilly is a bunch of media hype.

BTW, do read "The Party Crashers" article...

You do realize there's more than one Mickey Spillane out there, right? There was an author named Mickey Spillane and a gangster named Mickey Spillane.

Sounds like Warren shoudn't have been allowed to have a gun.

And I didn't say anything about police shootings. Of course, the 1920s wasn't exactly the Chicago Police Department's Finest Hour.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom