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Gun Control advocates...

Some really bad reporting in there, but she should have been sentenced to the maximum sentence allowable by law. One is a 'maybe'. Three...well...thats no coincidence.
 
I don't normally reply to stupid, dishonest arguments, but since you asked.

You never supplied any explanation for why gun control laws are not enforced in Chicago.

Because that had nothing to do with anything I said. You said and I quote "This is absolutely ****ing hilarious. You think this is gun control advocates fault? Lol! It's the pro-gun lies and rhetoric influencing courts, judges, and sentencing." I pointed out this happened in Chicago, and it had absolutely nothing to do with "gun control advocates"

It is clearly not that the laws were not passed, as the laws must exist in order to be under enforced.

The laws do exist, they need to be enforced. What part of that are you not getting? Oh wait I know. You don't reply when you have nothing but a stupid argument that amounts to a red herring.

So your entire case is built on dishonesty and delusion about the depth of pro-gun dishonesty. Ironic!!

You mean your argument is lacking and you need to make general statements that mean nothing.
 
You think sending people to prison for non-violent crimes sends a good message? Imprisoning people for just selling illegal things is one of the biggest issues with the War on Drugs, and you want to extend that ridiculous and stupid mentality to guns as well.

Yep, what else do you propose as a deterrent to forgery, identity theft, nonpayment of child support (or other court judgements), DUI/DWI or burglary/theft? Crimes are made into felonies precisely because they deserve jail/prison time. The best idea for non-violent offenders is a work release program where they stay locked up (indefinitely except to work) until they repay the state for their court/jail costs and their known victims for their losses.
 
They aren't enforced on the federal level in the nation as a whole:

FBI denials referred to ATF DENI Branch 76,142
DENI Branch referrals to ATF field divisions 4,732
Not referred to field, overturned, or canceled 71,410
Cases declined by ATF 4,184
Charges referred for prosecution 62
2010 charges that resulted in guilty pleas 13

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/bjs/grants/239272.pdf

They aren't prosecuted by the city of Chicago/Cook County:

"From January 2006 through August 2013, thousands of cases involving a weapons violation were thrown out in Cook County’s criminal courts, The Chicago Reporter found. More than 13,000 cases that included a gun violation have been dismissed during that period, shows the Reporter’s analysis of records maintained by the Clerk of the Circuit Court of Cook County. In fact, more felony cases involving a gun--from illegal possession to unlawful sale to a felon--have been thrown out than cases with any other type of charge."

Thousands of felony gun cases are being dismissed in Cook County criminal courts | Chicago Reporter

"Since 1982, when the city tightened its gun ordinances to include the handgun ban, there have been just 2,201 convictions under the laws, according to data obtained by the Chicago News Cooperative from the office of the Cook County Circuit Court clerk. That works out to an average of about 79 convictions a year."

City’s Restrictive Gun Laws Are Rarely Enforced - The New York Times

Of course, it isn't just gun control laws that aren't enforced. In 2015, just 26% of murders committed that year were solved, with an overall clearance rate of 48%, 14 points below the national average.

https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/201...-solved-just-26-percent-of-472-homicides-2015

They have fewer resources to solve crimes:

"The number of detectives on the Chicago police force has dropped to 922 [in 2015] from 1,252 in 2008". That's a 26% reduction.

Chicago's detective force dwindles as murder rate soars | Reuters

That really just undermines your case against gun control. When the pro-gun side cries that gun control isn't effective, the explanation is simple: these laws aren't being enforced.
 
Because that had nothing to do with anything I said. You said and I quote "This is absolutely ****ing hilarious. You think this is gun control advocates fault? Lol! It's the pro-gun lies and rhetoric influencing courts, judges, and sentencing." I pointed out this happened in Chicago, and it had absolutely nothing to do with "gun control advocates"



The laws do exist, they need to be enforced. What part of that are you not getting? Oh wait I know. You don't reply when you have nothing but a stupid argument that amounts to a red herring.



You mean your argument is lacking and you need to make general statements that mean nothing.

Great, so how do you get them to do their jobs and enforce the law?
 
That really just undermines your case against gun control. When the pro-gun side cries that gun control isn't effective, the explanation is simple: these laws aren't being enforced.

So enforce those laws before creating new ones, especially ones that we know would be unenforceable.
 
So enforce those laws before creating new ones, especially ones that we know would be unenforceable.

They're extremely enforceable. The problem is rather obviously the culture that marginalizes gun crimes.
 
They're extremely enforceable.

Which laws are extremely enforceable?

The problem is rather obviously the culture that marginalizes gun crimes.

What culture is that?

From the public defender for Cook County:

"A war on guns that focuses solely on punishment sounds like an easy fix, but it will fail just as did the war on drugs. Increasing prison terms while failing to address the causes of gun violence will serve only to, once again, demonize and incarcerate another generation of mostly young African-American and Latino men. An old adage states that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Following the same failed path will have the same failed results.

In Illinois, killing someone with a firearm carries a minimum 45 years in prison, with no possible early release. A 20-year-old convicted of shooting someone to death will see freedom, at the earliest, when he is 65. This minimum 45-year punishment has been in effect since 2000. Did it prevent 90 people from being killed in August? Did it stop the nearly 500 homicides so far this year?

Possession of a firearm by a felon carries a sentence of up to seven years in prison. Depending on the felon's criminal background, the penalty after conviction can increase to either 14 or 30 years in prison. Have these prison terms prevented the nearly 3,000 shootings in Chicago this year?

Some suggest that mandatory prison terms are needed in order to strip judges of discretion at sentencing. But locking up everyone without consideration of his or her background or the facts of each case is fundamentally unfair. Discretion is necessary, since every person is different, as are the facts underlying every charged offense. Serving time in prison, in fact, often exacerbates the problem. Instead of rehabilitating, it often hardens individuals and sets them further back when they re-enter society.

Despite the inflammatory rhetoric, no one grows up wanting to shoot or kill. People from distressed communities have often endured horrific trauma in their lives, and make bad choices. Increasing minimum sentences will not stop violence; it will merely incarcerate one generation while another generation steps up and continues the violence.

Punishment occurs after the fact, after the violence has happened. The solution that all parties should be seeking is how to reduce or prevent the violence from ever occurring. Gun violence stems from inadequate education, lack of economic opportunity, an unstable home environment, mental health problems, untreated anger, segregation, lack of recreational outlets and poverty. It affects families, friends and communities.


A culture where there is no hope for employment and family is self-destructive. We see the results on the street every day. Advocating only punishment for those who see no hope will solve nothing. We need to collaborate and help our youth gain vision and hope, not pigeonhole entire classes or generations of people to prison.

I ask only that we see everyone at risk as someone deserving of dignity, to give him or her a chance before the violent act is taken, before the gun is picked up. We will not stop violence by launching a punitive war on guns and locking up another generation of young men; we will stop it through thoughtful action, assistance and recognition that something better can be achieved.

Amy P. Campanelli is the public defender for Cook County.

A 'war on guns' won't stop Chicago's violence - Chicago Tribune
 
Please feel free to address this...

Mousheh was arrested last September and charged with four felonies after an investigation by the Chicago Police Firearm Investigation Team concluded she had bought handguns through the benefit of her state-issued Firearms Owners Identification card and then illegally resold them. - Straw purchaser with 4 felony gun charges will not get jail time

So why do we need more gun laws when we don't even enforce the laws we have. 4 gun felonies in Chicago no less and she gets probation???

Don't talk to me about gun control ever. You lose.

So, the problem really is whites selling guns to blacks. No surprise there.
 
So, the problem really is whites selling guns to blacks. No surprise there.

Nice. Went right over your head. No surprise here, lol.

Now please come out from under that bridge. I am not going to get involved in that silliness.
 
It is an EXAMPlE of the stupidity of a system wanting more useless gun control laws while not enforcing the laws on the books.
This woman broke the law and she was caught, charged and convicted. Just because some people reading a brief news report of the case don't think the sentence was harsh enough doesn't mean the law wasn't enforced.

Yes it does as an EXAMPLE. Now please feel free to tell us what gun laws you think should not be enforced, and what new ones we need?
What would be the point? You've declared that any proposed gun law should be unconditionally dismissed.

As it happens, I'm not arguing for greater gun control anyway, I'm arguing for better and more honest debating.
 
It is an EXAMPlE of the stupidity of a system wanting more useless gun control laws while not enforcing the laws on the books.



Yes it does as an EXAMPLE. Now please feel free to tell us what gun laws you think should not be enforced, and what new ones we need?

the purpose of gun control laws is to

1) allow those who pass them to pander to the slow witted who demand something be done every time there is a shooting that gets publicity

2) to harass honest people who follow the laws
 
Nice. Went right over your head. No surprise here, lol.

Now please come out from under that bridge. I am not going to get involved in that silliness.

Looks more like a fact than "silliness" to me.
 
Which laws are extremely enforceable?



What culture is that?

From the public defender for Cook County:

"A war on guns that focuses solely on punishment sounds like an easy fix, but it will fail just as did the war on drugs. Increasing prison terms while failing to address the causes of gun violence will serve only to, once again, demonize and incarcerate another generation of mostly young African-American and Latino men. An old adage states that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Following the same failed path will have the same failed results.

In Illinois, killing someone with a firearm carries a minimum 45 years in prison, with no possible early release. A 20-year-old convicted of shooting someone to death will see freedom, at the earliest, when he is 65. This minimum 45-year punishment has been in effect since 2000. Did it prevent 90 people from being killed in August? Did it stop the nearly 500 homicides so far this year?

Possession of a firearm by a felon carries a sentence of up to seven years in prison. Depending on the felon's criminal background, the penalty after conviction can increase to either 14 or 30 years in prison. Have these prison terms prevented the nearly 3,000 shootings in Chicago this year?

Some suggest that mandatory prison terms are needed in order to strip judges of discretion at sentencing. But locking up everyone without consideration of his or her background or the facts of each case is fundamentally unfair. Discretion is necessary, since every person is different, as are the facts underlying every charged offense. Serving time in prison, in fact, often exacerbates the problem. Instead of rehabilitating, it often hardens individuals and sets them further back when they re-enter society.

Despite the inflammatory rhetoric, no one grows up wanting to shoot or kill. People from distressed communities have often endured horrific trauma in their lives, and make bad choices. Increasing minimum sentences will not stop violence; it will merely incarcerate one generation while another generation steps up and continues the violence.

Punishment occurs after the fact, after the violence has happened. The solution that all parties should be seeking is how to reduce or prevent the violence from ever occurring. Gun violence stems from inadequate education, lack of economic opportunity, an unstable home environment, mental health problems, untreated anger, segregation, lack of recreational outlets and poverty. It affects families, friends and communities.


A culture where there is no hope for employment and family is self-destructive. We see the results on the street every day. Advocating only punishment for those who see no hope will solve nothing. We need to collaborate and help our youth gain vision and hope, not pigeonhole entire classes or generations of people to prison.

I ask only that we see everyone at risk as someone deserving of dignity, to give him or her a chance before the violent act is taken, before the gun is picked up. We will not stop violence by launching a punitive war on guns and locking up another generation of young men; we will stop it through thoughtful action, assistance and recognition that something better can be achieved.

Amy P. Campanelli is the public defender for Cook County.

A 'war on guns' won't stop Chicago's violence - Chicago Tribune

Gun control laws.

We don't enforce them why? Your long winded rambling above didn't even try to address that question.

If someone can be proven to have broken the law, the law should be enforced. That last step isn't taken why?

(Because gun culture poisoned the criminal justice system)
 
Gun control laws.

We don't enforce them why? Your long winded rambling above didn't even try to address that question.

If someone can be proven to have broken the law, the law should be enforced. That last step isn't taken why?

(Because gun culture poisoned the criminal justice system)
wrong-the purpose of gun control laws is not to punish criminals but to pander to the slow witted voters and to harass honest gun owners

liberals aren't often interested in really hammering those who cause most of the crime with firearms-inner city blacks. why-because a major constituency of the leftwing politicians in this country are black voters and many black voters see any politician calling for a "crack down on violent crime" as anti black. and there is some validity to that fear
 
Either he's blaming gun control, or he's not blaming gun control. It should be obvious that he can't do both at the same time. You can't claim this is a statement claiming gun control is ineffective, this seems to argue it's not even implemented.

This is not a surprise for me. Pro gun advocates are often highly motivated and hypersensitive to the mere suggestion of a limitation. They obstruct any amount of responsibility on the part of gun owners as aggressively as possible.

All over the place on this on aren't you....How is he blaming anyone? And how is this removing any amount of responsibility from anyone other than the courts? What exactly is being obstructed by the OP? Would love to figure out what the heck you are thinking....
 
Gun control laws.

We don't enforce them why? Your long winded rambling above didn't even try to address that question.

If someone can be proven to have broken the law, the law should be enforced. That last step isn't taken why?

(Because gun culture poisoned the criminal justice system)

Easy to say but perhaps you can explain how gun culture poisoned the justice system. That is some pretty vacuous reasoning there.
 
Gun control laws.

We don't enforce them why? Your long winded rambling above didn't even try to address that question.

If someone can be proven to have broken the law, the law should be enforced. That last step isn't taken why?

(Because gun culture poisoned the criminal justice system)

Please elaborate.
 
wrong-the purpose of gun control laws is not to punish criminals but to pander to the slow witted voters and to harass honest gun owners

liberals aren't often interested in really hammering those who cause most of the crime with firearms-inner city blacks. why-because a major constituency of the leftwing politicians in this country are black voters and many black voters see any politician calling for a "crack down on violent crime" as anti black. and there is some validity to that fear

Rahm Emanuel gun bill blocked by black lawmakers - tribunedigital-chicagotribune
 
You think sending people to prison for non-violent crimes sends a good message? Imprisoning people for just selling illegal things is one of the biggest issues with the War on Drugs, and you want to extend that ridiculous and stupid mentality to guns as well.

So selling guns to a gang banger or known violent offender is non violent???? Seriously?
 
All over the place on this on aren't you....How is he blaming anyone? And how is this removing any amount of responsibility from anyone other than the courts? What exactly is being obstructed by the OP? Would love to figure out what the heck you are thinking....

Did you miss the thread title?

The OP is ignorantly taunting that gun control is ineffective because the people we hire to enforce the law are neglecting to do their job. The obvious problem there is that you can't gauge the effectiveness of a policy that isn't really implemented. If the criminal justice system is too cowardly or incompetent to take gun control seriously, that just underscores the need for more laws.
 
Easy to say but perhaps you can explain how gun culture poisoned the justice system. That is some pretty vacuous reasoning there.

Are you serious right now? I explained this. There is a double standard in this country because pro-gun fanatics treat guns as sacrosanct.
 
Are you serious right now? I explained this. There is a double standard in this country because pro-gun fanatics treat guns as sacrosanct.

How did it poison the well in Cook County, Illinois? How did it poison the well in California?
 
Please elaborate.

If uniformed police, prosecutors, etc. are insubordinate with respect to gun control laws, avoiding gun control isn't a solution.

There is no actual connection here to the efficacy of gun control. It's just using ignorance to jump to a desired conclusion.
 
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