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Gun geeks flip out over suspension of preschooler

Slyfox696 said:
Did you read the article where the school said it wasn't just about the casing?
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Yeah...sounded like a school trying to save face.
 
Slyfox696 said:
And you seem to have no valid response to my position that the school is only acting "dumbly" if you blindly believe the word of the parents, without hearing the side of the school who is likely legally prohibited from speaking about the child.

And given the fact I've seen similar situations such as this (not gun related, but the same basic concepts) on several occasions, all of which came about because of a lie from the parents, I'm going to believe it's far more likely to school is telling the truth when they say the suspension is not just about the casing.
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While I agree, the casing should be a non-issue regardless other disciplinary issues. If the child somehow had "2 disciplinary strikes" against him this does not rise to the level of a 3rd.
 
This is a tricky one for me... I believe in strong gun regulations (I mean, I am a Canadian progressive, after all), but have also had a lot of enjoyment from target shooting, even from a young age (never hunted, but only because we moved from the rural area I grew up in before I was of an age to do so). Because of our gun laws, we don't see the same level of mass shootings, so while I think the casing would have been confiscated here, I doubt there would have been a knee jerk suspension. I know I brought a spent casing from the first large calibre rifle I fired to show my buddies in high school, and showed a couple teachers as well, and it was no big deal - it was just part of a story I was telling about my weekend, and there was no freak out (this was about 20 years ago, perhaps things have changed).

However, despite thinking, even as a Liberal, that this response is ludicrous, being Canadian I enjoy sensible gun regulations that spare us from the same level of terrifying school shootings that America has had to suffer through (while still allowing Canadian gun owners to enjoy their hobby safely), so it's tough for me to comment on unreasonable knee jerk responses driven by reasonable concerns. Seems like this is one of those things that could be sorted out if both sides of the debate came to the table willing to compromise, but since the American default currently appears to be extreme polarization and tribalism, it's not likely that will happen, so.....

I definitely feel for this kid, though...
 
Why are we telling kids it's wrong to do something that endangers no body and breaks no laws? Sounds like brain washing to me.


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Fishking said:
Yeah...sounded like a school trying to save face.
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The school wrote in a letter before the story was out that they repeatedly informed the child's parents about policy violation "to save face"???

Tell me...why do you believe the parents of the problem child over the school, when much of the evidence suggests the school is in the right and the parents aren't telling the truth?
BretJ said:
While I agree, the casing should be a non-issue regardless other disciplinary issues.
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Unless...

"The letter says they’d repeatedly been reminded about Hunter using other toys as make believe guns, in violation of school policy"

In other words, it sounds like the suspension was more about repeated insubordination, not for the casing. Let's put it another way. We can both agree schools have no problem with students talking to each other, unless they do it inappropriately/at the wrong time. So if I have a student in class and he's talking while he's jogging, that's fine. But if I'm lecturing before the activity and the student is talking, and I tell him to stop talking multiple times and he still doesn't stop, then further punishment is warranted.

That's what it sounds like happened in this case. It sounds like the child was repeatedly told his behavior was incorrect and the student persisted in the incorrect behavior. The letter clearly states the school has contacted the child's parents on multiple occasions, so that tells me this was not a one time event. It seems to me the parents aren't telling the whole truth and that the child wasn't suspended for bringing a casing to school, but rather repeated violations of school policy.

If the child somehow had "2 disciplinary strikes" against him this does not rise to the level of a 3rd.
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It does if it is repeated insubordination. Again, if I warn a child twice to stop talking and the child continues to talk, then the third time he's out of my class and gets an F for the day. Fairly common procedure in life, not just in school, but in life.
 
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Slyfox696 said:
The school wrote in a letter before the story was out that they repeatedly informed the child's parents about policy violation "to save face"???

Tell me...why do you believe the parents of the problem child over the school, when much of the evidence suggests the school is in the right and the parents aren't telling the truth?
Unless...

"The letter says they’d repeatedly been reminded about Hunter using other toys as make believe guns, in violation of school policy"

In other words, it sounds like the suspension was more about repeated insubordination, not for the casing. Let's put it another way. We can both agree schools have no problem with students talking to each other, unless they do it inappropriately/at the wrong time. So if I have a student in class and he's talking while he's jogging, that's fine. But if I'm lecturing before the activity and the student is talking, and I tell him to stop talking multiple times and he still doesn't stop, then further punishment is warranted.

That's what it sounds like happened in this case. It sounds like the child was repeatedly told his behavior was incorrect and the student persisted in the incorrect behavior. The letter clearly states the school has contacted the child's parents on multiple occasions, so that tells me this was not a one time event. It seems to me the parents aren't telling the whole truth and that the child wasn't suspended for bringing a casing to school, but rather repeated violations of school policy.

It does if it is repeated insubordination. Again, if I warn a child twice to stop talking and the child continues to talk, then the third time he's out of my class and gets an F for the day. Fairly common procedure in life, not just in school, but in life.
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Ok, but the kid is 4. If a 4 year old is that disruptive as to be considered an outlier among other 4 year olds, I would imagine that there was a different / better way to help the kid out than a 7 day suspension. It's not that I don't understand that rules are rules, and it's not that I don't sympathize with the concerns that created those rules, but......if you'll forgive the inappropriate pun, it's a little like hunting for ground hogs with hand grenades.
 
RickJames3000 said:
Just like the outrage of the gun lobby in response to this pre-school following its own policies.
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It's only policies of irrational fear instilled but the irrational left that has no grasp on reality. So much so that kids can get suspended for chewing a poptart into a gun shape. The inmates are truly running the asylum.
 
Fishking said:
It's only policies of irrational fear instilled but the irrational left that has no grasp on reality. So much so that kids can get suspended for chewing a poptart into a gun shape. The inmates are truly running the asylum.
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You don't like the policies, then don't send your kids there.
That's a lot more effective than whining about them.
 
Fishking said:
It's only policies of irrational fear instilled but the irrational left that has no grasp on reality. So much so that kids can get suspended for chewing a poptart into a gun shape. The inmates are truly running the asylum.
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Did you not read what I've posted? How can you jump to partisan attacks like "irrational left" when all the evidence supports the idea the parents weren't telling the truth?
OlNate said:
Ok, but the kid is 4.
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All the more reason to teach boundaries. Allow me to quote The Andy Griffith Show:


David Browne: Well, Sheriff, maybe I do look at things differently than other people. Is that wrong? I live by my wits. I'm not above bending the law now and then to keep clothes on my back or food in my stomach. I live the kind of life that other people would just love to live if they only had the courage. Who's to say that the boy would be happier your way or mine? Why not let him decide?

Andy Taylor: Nah, I'm afraid it don't work that way. You can't let a young 'un decide for himself. He'll grab at the first flashy thing with shiny ribbons on it, then when he finds out there's a hook in it, it's too late. The wrong ideas come packaged with so much glitter it's hard to convince him that other things might be better in the long run. And all a parent can do is say, "Wait. Trust me," and try to keep temptation away.
​

If a 4 year old is that disruptive as to be considered an outlier among other 4 year olds, I would imagine that there was a different / better way to help the kid out than a 7 day suspension.
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But you don't know all the methods the school took. Perhaps they've already taken many steps to better the kid and the kid continues to be a disruption. Again, that comes back to the school and privacy laws.

It's not that I don't understand that rules are rules, and it's not that I don't sympathize with the concerns that created those rules
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Understood.
if you'll forgive the inappropriate pun, it's a little like hunting for ground hogs with hand grenades.
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Only if you assume the school jumped to this punishment. But I have a very strong suspicion there have been MANY disciplinary steps along the way and it finally progressed to this point.
 
Slyfox696 said:
The school wrote in a letter before the story was out that they repeatedly informed the child's parents about policy violation "to save face"???

Tell me...why do you believe the parents of the problem child over the school, when much of the evidence suggests the school is in the right and the parents aren't telling the truth?
Unless...

"The letter says they’d repeatedly been reminded about Hunter using other toys as make believe guns, in violation of school policy"

In other words, it sounds like the suspension was more about repeated insubordination, not for the casing. Let's put it another way. We can both agree schools have no problem with students talking to each other, unless they do it inappropriately/at the wrong time. So if I have a student in class and he's talking while he's jogging, that's fine. But if I'm lecturing before the activity and the student is talking, and I tell him to stop talking multiple times and he still doesn't stop, then further punishment is warranted.

That's what it sounds like happened in this case. It sounds like the child was repeatedly told his behavior was incorrect and the student persisted in the incorrect behavior. The letter clearly states the school has contacted the child's parents on multiple occasions, so that tells me this was not a one time event. It seems to me the parents aren't telling the whole truth and that the child wasn't suspended for bringing a casing to school, but rather repeated violations of school policy.

It does if it is repeated insubordination. Again, if I warn a child twice to stop talking and the child continues to talk, then the third time he's out of my class and gets an F for the day. Fairly common procedure in life, not just in school, but in life.
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Why is a 4 year old who pretends that a toy is a gun a discipline problem? That sure seems like normal kid behavior to me.
 
It was a empty casing that a 4 year old brought to school. The child is still stupid. The punishment is extreme. It's depressing that we live in such a age that fear dominates everything.
 
Lutherf said:
Why is a 4 year old who pretends that a toy is a gun a discipline problem?
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The problem is the child continually violates the rules. I think that's been made fairly clear.

If you're asking why it is a rule that a kid not pretend he has a gun, then I'd say because that kid likely doesn't pretend he has a gun and isn't shooting it. And if a kid has a pretend gun and is "shooting" it at other children, then that's a real problem, especially in today's educational climate.

Kids rarely pretend other toys are guns for reasons other than to pretend shoot them.
 
Slyfox696 said:
The problem is the child continually violates the rules. I think that's been made fairly clear.

If you're asking why it is a rule that a kid not pretend he has a gun, then I'd say because that kid likely doesn't pretend he has a gun and isn't shooting it. And if a kid has a pretend gun and is "shooting" it at other children, then that's a real problem, especially in today's educational climate.

Kids rarely pretend other toys are guns for reasons other than to pretend shoot them.
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I'd suggest that maybe the problem is adults who keep telling kids that pretend stuff is real and/or dangerous. Even a four year old knows he's not going to blow someone's head off with his finger. When you tell him that kind of thing is dangerous and he should be punished for doing it you're telling him that grown ups are ****ing idiots who probably shouldn't be obeyed because the stuff that comes out of their mouth is insane.
 
People over react these days. When I was in elementary school, it was common to turn in live ammunition and knives in to teachers under amnesty. The thing is teachers never threw a fit, because jonny was hunting with his 3006 rifle and forgot he left a mag full of it in his jacket pocket, he turns it in teacher just held it until the parents came to get it.


Now if he forgot about it in his jacket pocket and came to school on monday, and turned it in, man he would be facing a world of hurt, it is sad people can not ration and simply go into hyper ventilate mode over everything.
 
Fearandloathing said:
That wouldn't even happen in Canada where we hate guns
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I don't know canada has about 30 guns per capita, and is among the highest in the world for gun users, as well as one of the least restrictive.

You should have changed that to no one in canada would be caught with a .22lr shell, cuz they need bigger rifles to fight off grizzley and polar bears in rural canada.


to bring it up to point, per 100 people there are 30.8 guns in canada, while there is over 100 per 100 people in america, so america has more guns than people but canada can not say they hate guns when one in 3 is armed.
 
Lutherf said:
Why is a 4 year old who pretends that a toy is a gun a discipline problem? That sure seems like normal kid behavior to me.
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The anti gun left wants to stamp out any semblance of people wanting firearms. They want kids to be terrified of having ANYTHING TO DO WITH FIREARMS
 
beerftw said:
People over react these days. When I was in elementary school, it was common to turn in live ammunition and knives in to teachers under amnesty. The thing is teachers never threw a fit, because jonny was hunting with his 3006 rifle and forgot he left a mag full of it in his jacket pocket, he turns it in teacher just held it until the parents came to get it.


Now if he forgot about it in his jacket pocket and came to school on monday, and turned it in, man he would be facing a world of hurt, it is sad people can not ration and simply go into hyper ventilate mode over everything.
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I graduated HS in 77. Next to the HS was a country club with a skeet range. 3 miles down the road was the Gun club that any member of the village in which the school was located, could join without any waiting period (those who didn't live in the village-such as my family-were welcome to join but it might involve waiting for an opening)/ about half the kids either were members of one or both of the two clubs. Those of us old enough to drive often had shotguns or rifles in our trunks for use at the ranges. NO ONE ever got shot. Lots of boys carried knives-usually Swiss army style but more than a few of us had Buck style hunting knives. One day, in a class, the teacher was looking for a scissors to cut the bands that held "blue books" (the paper we used for writing exams) and asked if anyone had a knife. One of my classmates-from one of the wealthiest families in Southern Ohio pulled out an Italian Stiletto he had purchased on a spring break trip skiing in Europe and handed it to the teacher who knew exactly how to open a switchblade. After the teacher opened the package he threw the knife into a cork board and noted that the student should learn how to keep such a knife sharp. Yeah the knife stuck-apparently this rather rotund spanish teacher from England had seen some action in service to her Majesty.

BTW no one ever got knifed either. there were plenty of fistfights-indeed, if you got into a fight, the AD would take you and the other student down to the wrestling matt and the person who did not start the fight had a choice of fist fighting or wrestling. after the AD or another teacher thought enough was enough, that was it. and that seemed to keep a serious damper on violence because the first of the few fights I got into as a new student and a seventh grader I managed to win because I knew how to box and after the other kid had enough, the AD made us shake hands and noted if we got into it again-we were going to have to box him-and he was about 225 and 6-2 and Played football at Ohio State. seems to be a far better way of handling things than the wimpified hysterical nonsense that goes on today
 
Lutherf said:
I'd suggest that maybe the problem is adults who keep telling kids that pretend stuff is real and/or dangerous.
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I doubt that would hold up much if a child did bring a gun to school and started shooting. Then everyone would ask "why did no one do anything before?". Not speaking of this child in particular, speaking in general terms.

When you tell him that kind of thing is dangerous
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Who told him it was dangerous? They just said it was against the rules. Please don't make up stuff to fit your agenda.
 
AtlantaAdonis said:
Boy suspended for taking shell casing to preschool, mom's Facebook post goes viral | Fox News

And of course there is the predictable chorus of "OMG stoopid lib'rals that's not a shotgun bullet it's a child-killer 4000 bullet!".

Honestly, who cares?

It is highly irresponsible for these parents to allow their kids to bring gun crap to a preschool. If you don't know that the kid has a bullet in his backpack odds are he could sneak a gun into the preschool. Kudos to this preschool for removing their kid. I wouldn't ever send my kid to a place with irresponsible gun owners like that.
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That's ignorant as hell. A gun is much larger.

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Fishking said:
Yes...we are going to say, "OMG stoopid lib'rals" because they are indeed stupid. This is a shell casing from a spent shell. This means there is no bullet, no charge, nothing. It's less dangerous than a pencil or stairs.

It's not irresponsible at all to let a child that is old enough to know not to put something in their mouth and choke on it to have one.
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WTF? DCFS was called also?

4-year-old suspended for bringing a shell casing to preschool daycare, goes viral on Facebook

The school's vice-president e-mailed her that he was notifying the Illinois Department of Children and Family Services (DCFS). He confirmed that to Fox 2 but said since A Place 2 Grow was licensed by DCFS, DCFS needed to be notified.
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This school is a joke. Just because you get a license from a governmental office does not mean that you are supposed to "inform" them of every little thing.

And it was a spent .22 shell. Not a shotgun shell. Not a live bullet. A spent .22 shell. Harmless.
 
Slyfox696 said:
The school wrote in a letter before the story was out that they repeatedly informed the child's parents about policy violation
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From what I understand each time the "discipline" happened it was about playing with other toys like they were a fake gun. Hardly anything to write home about...much less discipline any child over.

You can find the link for what I said about the discipline here in post 73. It was written in the letter that was given to the mom when they suspended her son.
 
Slyfox696 said:
The school wrote in a letter before the story was out that they repeatedly informed the child's parents about policy violation "to save face"???

Tell me...why do you believe the parents of the problem child over the school, when much of the evidence suggests the school is in the right and the parents aren't telling the truth?
Unless...

"The letter says they’d repeatedly been reminded about Hunter using other toys as make believe guns, in violation of school policy"

In other words, it sounds like the suspension was more about repeated insubordination, not for the casing. Let's put it another way. We can both agree schools have no problem with students talking to each other, unless they do it inappropriately/at the wrong time. So if I have a student in class and he's talking while he's jogging, that's fine. But if I'm lecturing before the activity and the student is talking, and I tell him to stop talking multiple times and he still doesn't stop, then further punishment is warranted.

That's what it sounds like happened in this case. It sounds like the child was repeatedly told his behavior was incorrect and the student persisted in the incorrect behavior. The letter clearly states the school has contacted the child's parents on multiple occasions, so that tells me this was not a one time event. It seems to me the parents aren't telling the whole truth and that the child wasn't suspended for bringing a casing to school, but rather repeated violations of school policy.

It does if it is repeated insubordination. Again, if I warn a child twice to stop talking and the child continues to talk, then the third time he's out of my class and gets an F for the day. Fairly common procedure in life, not just in school, but in life.
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Was the child warned about bringing anything to school? What was the context in this situation? What was violated?
 
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