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Congress Says, Let the Mentally Ill Buy Guns [W:100]

Re: Congress Says, Let the Mentally Ill Buy Guns

Why do you think the mentally ill should be arbitrarily stripped of their rights?

To own a gun...yes of course. For their safety as much as others.
 
Re: Congress Says, Let the Mentally Ill Buy Guns

No. People are still the problem. In this case the poorly worded and ill conceived bill these people put together.

Crazy people are huge part of the problem.
 
Re: Congress Says, Let the Mentally Ill Buy Guns

No. People are still the problem. In this case the poorly worded and ill conceived bill these people put together.

Not if schizos can buy guns: now guns are the problem.

The right didn't think it was poorly worded when they introduced it.
 
Re: Congress Says, Let the Mentally Ill Buy Guns

Crazy people are huge part of the problem.
Yes they are but that damned due process thingy keeps getting in the way. This bill, as I understand it, went around due process for a Constitutional right. If it can happen to one right, it can happen to any.
 
Re: Congress Says, Let the Mentally Ill Buy Guns

To own a gun...yes of course. For their safety as much as others.

Do it in a constitutional manner, then. The President doesn't have the authority to strip citizens of their rights.
 
Re: Congress Says, Let the Mentally Ill Buy Guns

To own a gun...yes of course. For their safety as much as others.

Oh good, as long as it's for their own safety. :roll: These are people who already have someone else controlling their financial affairs, so they're not gonna be buying guns anyway. And here you think it's a good idea to further strip them of autonomy and dignity by denying them a right without due process. What if someone with severe schizophrenia says something that endangers themselves, should their free speech be stripped without due process as well?
 
Re: Congress Says, Let the Mentally Ill Buy Guns

Not if schizos can buy guns: now guns are the problem.

The right didn't think it was poorly worded when they introduced it.

The right didn't introduce it, Obama did. If schizos have a gun it is still a 'people' problem - a schizo with a gun. The gun cannot do anything on it's own.
 
Re: Congress Says, Let the Mentally Ill Buy Guns

Crazy people are huge part of the problem.

How many shootings have been committed by mentally ill individuals whose financial arrangements are in the care of a trustee?
 
Re: Congress Says, Let the Mentally Ill Buy Guns

The right didn't introduce it, Obama did. If schizos have a gun it is still a 'people' problem - a schizo with a gun. The gun cannot do anything on it's own.

Nooo, it's a gun problem dude: no gun - no problem.
 
Re: Congress Says, Let the Mentally Ill Buy Guns

No, the GOP Did Not Just Repeal the Background Check System or Give Guns to the Mentally Il | National Review

There were a host of reasons to object to this measure. On separation-of-powers grounds, the prospect of the Social Security Administration playing judge, jury, and executioner is flatly intolerable. On due process grounds, there was nothing to recommend the measure (as the ACLU made abundantly clear in its opposition letter). On statutory grounds, it seems clear that the SSA was acting ultra vires. And, as political matter, the vacillation of the Obama administration — which insisted simultaneously that “incidents of violence continue to highlight a crisis in America’s mental health system” and that it was “not attempting to imply a connection between mental illness and a propensity for violence, particularly gun violence” — was downright embarrassing. But one does not have to agree with me on process or in outlook to see that as a matter of positive policy, the idea was a terrible one. As Yale’s Dr. Mark Rosen observed when the rule was first adumbrated, ​the link between financial acumen and mental illness is extraordinarily weak: “Someone can be incapable of managing their funds but not be dangerous, violent or unsafe,” said Dr. Marc Rosen, a Yale psychiatrist who has studied how veterans with mental health problems manage their money. “They are very different determinations."

It is for this lattermost reason — not from any great fidelity to the Second Amendment — that so many organizations urged the GOP to act. As the House Ways and Means Committee was sure to make clear, letters of support were received from ADAPT, which “urged Congress to use the Congressional Rule Act to repeal this rule“; from the American Association of People with Disabilities, which pressed Congress “to support a Congressional Review Act (CRA) resolution to disapprove the Final Rule issued by the Social Security Administration (SSA)”; from the ACLU, which pushed “members of the House of Representatives to support the resolution disapproving the final rule of the Social Security Administration”; from The Arc of the United States, which asked “Congress to act, through the CRA process, to disapprove this new rule”; from the Association of Mature American Citizens, which exhorted “Congress to quickly pass this Joint Resolution and restore the basic Second Amendment rights this rule has abridged”; from the Autistic Self-Advocacy Network, which implored “Congress to act, through the CRA process, to disapprove this new rule and prevent the damage that it inflicts on the disability community”; and, in addition, from the Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law, the Consortium for Citizens with Disabilities, the Disability Law Center of Alaska, the National Alliance on Mental Illness, the National Association of County Behavioral Health and Developmental Disability Directors, the National Association for Rights Protection and Advocacy, the National Association for Rural Mental Health, the National Council on Disability, the National Council of Independent Living, the National Coalition of Mental Health Recovery, the National Disability Leadership Alliance, the National Disability Rights Network, the New York Association of Psychiatric Rehabilitation Services, and Safari Club International. All of them — every single one — urged that the rule be killed.

Wow, even ACLU?
 
Re: Congress Says, Let the Mentally Ill Buy Guns

How many shootings have been committed by mentally ill individuals whose financial arrangements are in the care of a trustee?

...only for SSID or SSI funds provided the Social Security Administration, the only government agency named in the rule.
 
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Re: Congress Says, Let the Mentally Ill Buy Guns

Are you saying that "These individuals suffer schizophrenia, psychotic disorders and other problems to such an extent that they are unable to manage their financial affairs and other basic tasks without help." is not true? Perhaps so, but I've not seen that reported. I saw this before when the House passed it. Can you enlighten us on the actual situation?


bannerrhoid politicians want to disbar as many people as possible, for as specious reasons imaginable from owning guns. Under the GCA of 68, someone who has been ADJUDICATED mentally incompetent cannot own firearms and cannot buy them. Democrats wanted to expand that to cases where there has not been an adjudication and no opportunity to be heard. what burden of PROOF do you think needs to be met to strip someone of their rights?

or are you just a gun banner who doesn't think people should be able to own a firearm?
 
Re: Congress Says, Let the Mentally Ill Buy Guns

How many shootings have been committed by mentally ill individuals whose financial arrangements are in the care of a trustee?

about the number of people who died after being sodomized by escaped Rhinos from the zoo
 
Re: Congress Says, Let the Mentally Ill Buy Guns

Oh good, as long as it's for their own safety. :roll: These are people who already have someone else controlling their financial affairs, so they're not gonna be buying guns anyway. And here you think it's a good idea to further strip them of autonomy and dignity by denying them a right without due process. What if someone with severe schizophrenia says something that endangers themselves, should their free speech be stripped without due process as well?

Please don't deny the high incidence of suicides by gun by the mentally unstable, it makes you sound like a troll. The mere presence of a gun in the home raises the risk of suicide tremendously. And in the worst case scenario you get Sandy Hook.
 
Re: Congress Says, Let the Mentally Ill Buy Guns

Please don't deny the high incidence of suicides by gun by the mentally unstable, it makes you sound like a troll. The mere presence of a gun in the home raises the risk of suicide tremendously. And in the worst case scenario you get Sandy Hook.

I call complete BS on that nonsense and there is no proof of that. furthermore, there are many areas in the world that have higher rates of suicide than the USA does and No legal gun ownership.
 
Re: Congress Says, Let the Mentally Ill Buy Guns

Please don't deny the high incidence of suicides by gun by the mentally unstable, it makes you sound like a troll. The mere presence of a gun in the home raises the risk of suicide tremendously. And in the worst case scenario you get Sandy Hook.


Does the mere presence of ropes, ties and sheets raise the risk of suicide by hanging and suffocation?

Did you even read my post and see why this rule was a bad idea, and which organizations opposed it? ACLU and ARC, for two.
 
Re: Congress Says, Let the Mentally Ill Buy Guns

Does the mere presence of ropes, ties and sheets raise the risk of suicide by hanging and suffocation?

Did you even read my post and see why this rule was a bad idea, and which organizations opposed it? ACLU and ARC, for two.

No. Only the presence of a gun has shown the increased risk and it is massive especially if a young teen is in residence. To some a gun is like asking them to commit suicide. It is a home weapons most common "use".
If this "rule" was bad then write a new one that prevents the mentally ill from getting a gun. It is ridiculous beyond words. I have never seen such dysfunction.
 
Re: Congress Says, Let the Mentally Ill Buy Guns

No. Only the presence of a gun has shown the increased risk and it is massive especially if a young teen is in residence.
If this "rule" was bad then write a new one that prevents the mentally ill from getting a gun. It is ridiculous beyond words. I have never seen such dysfunction.

the vast majority of people who commit suicide-whether by gun or other means-have not been adjudicated mentally ill or even diagnosed as mentally ill
 
Re: Congress Says, Let the Mentally Ill Buy Guns

the vast majority of people who commit suicide-whether by gun or other means-have not been adjudicated mentally ill or even diagnosed as mentally ill

Only the majority? Well I guess that shows the state of our mental health system then. How many preventable deaths are acceptable do you think? I know the profits of the gun makers is the bottom line but I wonder if there is a limit.
 
Re: Congress Says, Let the Mentally Ill Buy Guns

Only the majority? Well I guess that shows the state of our mental health system then. How many preventable deaths are acceptable do you think? I know the profits of the gun makers is the bottom line but I wonder if there is a limit.

why don't you tell us what threshold you want to deny people their constitutional rights? that is what we are talking about and sorry, I don't believe in having my rights restricted just because someone else kills themselves

the fact is, your posting history is one of anti gun owner and when I see anti gun owners clamoring for any restrictions, Its almost always because they want to harass gun ownership
 
Re: Congress Says, Let the Mentally Ill Buy Guns

Please don't deny the high incidence of suicides by gun by the mentally unstable, it makes you sound like a troll. The mere presence of a gun in the home raises the risk of suicide tremendously. And in the worst case scenario you get Sandy Hook.

Do you have any sort of evidence that those who are most likely to commit suicide are those whose financial arrangements are in the care of a trustee? And why shouldn't those who are so invalidated by a mental illness have the same option that you believe those with a physical illness should have? Adam Lanza wouldn't have been disqualified from gun ownership under the legislation, so that's not really a valid point, is it?
 
Re: Congress Says, Let the Mentally Ill Buy Guns

why don't you tell us what threshold you want to deny people their constitutional rights? that is what we are talking about and sorry, I don't believe in having my rights restricted just because someone else kills themselves

the fact is, your posting history is one of anti gun owner and when I see anti gun owners clamoring for any restrictions, Its almost always because they want to harass gun ownership

Since the constitution clearly says WELL REGULATED why are you fighting so hard against the constitutionally required regulations?
 
Re: Congress Says, Let the Mentally Ill Buy Guns

Meanwhile, courts are completely clogged due to constant underfunding and 8 years of Republican obstructionism of appointees. I'm sure they have plenty of room to have trial proceedings over whether someone can get a gun permit.



I know some worship guns, but I do have to point out that in just about every other instance involving issuance of a license, it's on the person denied the license to bring it to court. Not always fair, but it's insane to expect every single permit to be adjudicated in court. I'm not sure why, but people seem to expect full due process on the cheap. Doesn't work like that.
Mental health adjudication is done at lower and state court levels. The process takes all of about 5 minutes once the judge is presented with paperwork signed by medical professionals.

Included on the list of 'reasons' to deny someone their Constitutional rights are things like depression and anxiety, regardless of treatment. Are you comfortable with denying an individual their Constitutional rights based on such a diagnosis? And do you similarly agree that if someone Constitutional rights have been denied them then it must be because they represent a threat to themselves or others?
 
Re: Congress Says, Let the Mentally Ill Buy Guns

To own a gun...yes of course. For their safety as much as others.
Ah! So its 'safety' you are concerned about. You believe they represent a threat to themselves or others. Right? So of course you would also strip away their access to vehicles, deadly chemicals, and of course children. You MUST agree they shouldnt be allowed to have custody of children. Essentially, you want to see those people locked up in secure facilities until they are deemed no longer a threat to themselves or others.

Right?
 
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