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Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?[W:150]

Re: Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?

Nickyjo said:
Sorry for the delay in responding, and forgive me if I repeat a message previously sent... My computer froze up...

1- You can google the question about the NRA opposition to studies... My search turned up that the CDC is prevented from doing so since an amendment passed in '96, the assumption apparently that the CDC would be biased... Don't know why Congress couldn't have commissioned another party to study it... The National Institute of health has apparently been able to do so...
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Like the DOJ? See studies and reports like "Summary of Select Firearms Violence Prevention Strategies" and "Victimization During Household Burglary", both published in 2010. See "First Reports Evaluating the Effectiveness of Strategies for Preventing Violence: Firearms Laws" from the CDC, published 2003.

https://www.cdc.gov/Mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm

See "Elevated Rates of Urban Firearm Violence and Opportunities for Prevention", CDC, 2015

CDC Delaware Final Report 110315
 
Re: Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?

soylentgreen said:
I see it as nothing more than a red herring by the pro gun group.
It should be easily recognised that laws are not created to stop criminal actions. There is no such thing as a criminal deciding not to do something just because a law is made to ban doing something.
All the law is there for is to recognise what is considered legal and what is not.
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The law is also there to allow the state to punish those who violate it, which hopefully serves a dual purpose: it takes a criminal out of society, preventing him/her from committing a crime for some period, and it should use that threat of punish to dissuade those for whom what is legal or not doesn't matter from committing a crime.
 
Re: Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?

Rucker61 said:
The law is also there to allow the state to punish those who violate it, which hopefully serves a dual purpose: it takes a criminal out of society, preventing him/her from committing a crime for some period, and it should use that threat of punish to dissuade those for whom what is legal or not doesn't matter from committing a crime.
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Unfortunately as a threat it does not do much more than make criminals more sneaky about how they commit crime.

The red herring of the argument here is that the pro gun are trying to falsely say that any laws enacted will be ignored by criminals so therefor why bother with laws. Which anyone with any ability to think something through should be able to figure out for themselves and ignore the false conclusion.
 
Re: Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?

soylentgreen said:
Unfortunately as a threat it does not do much more than make criminals more sneaky about how they commit crime.

The red herring of the argument here is that the pro gun are trying to falsely say that any laws enacted will be ignored by criminals so therefor why bother with laws. Which anyone with any ability to think something through should be able to figure out for themselves and ignore the false conclusion.
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Well, any new laws designed to reduce violence should be Constitutional, enforceable, effective, passable and necessary.
 
Re: Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?

soylentgreen said:
Unfortunately as a threat it does not do much more than make criminals more sneaky about how they commit crime.

The red herring of the argument here is that the pro gun are trying to falsely say that any laws enacted will be ignored by criminals so therefor why bother with laws. Which anyone with any ability to think something through should be able to figure out for themselves and ignore the false conclusion.
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its already illegal for someone with a record to even touch a firearm

its illegal to buy a gun for the purpose of using it in a crime even if you can pass a check

so who is impacted by

1) waiting periods

2) limits on how many guns you can buy a month or own

3) "semi auto bans"

4) magazine limits

5) bans on legal machine guns made after a certain date

ANSWER-only people who can own firearms. All the anti gun schemes are designed to harass honest people. those laws don't change anything for real criminals
 
Re: Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?

Rucker61 said:
Well, any new laws designed to reduce violence should be Constitutional, enforceable, effective, passable and necessary.
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Rucker61 said:
Well, any new laws designed to reduce violence should be Constitutional, enforceable, effective, passable and necessary.
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Laws do not reduce crime, they only tell us what is legal and what is not. No one who gets his kicks from being violent will stop just because someone created a new law they will only behave in a manner that is less likely to get them caught.

To stop violence you need to work on a cultural shift such as strong advertising that family violence is unacceptable.
 
Re: Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?

TurtleDude said:
its already illegal for someone with a record to even touch a firearm

its illegal to buy a gun for the purpose of using it in a crime even if you can pass a check

so who is impacted by

1) waiting periods

2) limits on how many guns you can buy a month or own

3) "semi auto bans"

4) magazine limits

5) bans on legal machine guns made after a certain date

ANSWER-only people who can own firearms. All the anti gun schemes are designed to harass honest people. those laws don't change anything for real criminals
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These laws are about the guns that is why they are dumb. It is an attitude of the gun is the problem rather than the people who weld guns. Which of course is wrong.

The laws need to be about the people themselves who use the gun, not the gun itself.

I keep going back to safety laws such as not storing guns and ammo in the same place because if a kid can get in then he access to it all.
 
Re: Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?

blackjack50 said:
This is something I am wondering about. Does anyone actually believe this? Can you support your argument? Does it by extension go to something like knives and martial arts needing to be banned?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Who are these "bad people" and what clearly denotes them as such?
 
Re: Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?

Phys251 said:
Who are these "bad people" and what clearly denotes them as such?
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well 80% or MORE of homicides committed by armed individuals =and 80% or more of armed robbery or armed assault are perpetrated by people with felony records. since juvenile records are not discoverable many young gang bangers aren't listed as felons

bottom line most gun crime is committed by people who cannot legally own firearms. Those are the bad people
 
Re: Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?

TurtleDude said:
well 80% or MORE of homicides committed by armed individuals =and 80% or more of armed robbery or armed assault are perpetrated by people with felony records. since juvenile records are not discoverable many young gang bangers aren't listed as felons

bottom line most gun crime is committed by people who cannot legally own firearms. Those are the bad people
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I was with you until the last sentence. Do you realize you are suggesting that the dividing line between "good" and "bad" is whether or not someone is a felon?
 
Re: Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?

Phys251 said:
I was with you until the last sentence. Do you realize you are suggesting that the dividing line between "good" and "bad" is whether or not someone is a felon?
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I don't think short of due process and a trial by jury, you can strip people of their rights

now I will say that there are other factors that the law states that I don't have much issue with

1-those adjudicated mentally incompetent
2-those who are fugitives, illegal aliens, under indictment for a felony or have renounced their citizenship
3) and I don't agree with those convicted of violent misdemeanors that are domestic in nature

other delineations are too subjective.
 
Re: Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?

Phys251 said:
I was with you until the last sentence. Do you realize you are suggesting that the dividing line between "good" and "bad" is whether or not someone is a felon?
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When they have served their sentence what are they? Citizens with all the rights of a citizen? Please tell me you disagree with this.
 
Re: Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?

soylentgreen said:
Laws do not reduce crime, they only tell us what is legal and what is not. No one who gets his kicks from being violent will stop just because someone created a new law they will only behave in a manner that is less likely to get them caught.

To stop violence you need to work on a cultural shift such as strong advertising that family violence is unacceptable.
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First all criminologists recognise that laws have some deterrent effect. The more swift the arrest and punishment the better it is. Cesare Bacceria 1764

You cannot change human behaviour without attending to the causes. Advertising the behaviour is unacceptable is not attending to the causes.

We know those causes they are all social problems. Overcrowding, unemployment, poverty, disparity between rich and poor, break down of the family unit, drug abuse (symptom), alcohol abuse (symptom) , education, housing, loss of dignity......

Gun control fixes not one of those. What it does do is waste billions that could be better spent thanks to the uncaring paranoid gun control advocates. That is how gun control increases crime. Removing the money that should be spent on solving the social problems.
 
Re: Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?

TurtleDude said:
well 80% or MORE of homicides committed by armed individuals =and 80% or more of armed robbery or armed assault are perpetrated by people with felony records. since juvenile records are not discoverable many young gang bangers aren't listed as felons

bottom line most gun crime is committed by people who cannot legally own firearms. Those are the bad people
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Bottom line is there is nothing anyone can do with bad people UNTIL they break the law. Denying them guns will make absolutely no difference. Which criminal is stupid enough to use a legally purchased firearm in a crime? I imagine in the delusional world of gun control advocates a legal firearm is criminals only source......
 
Re: Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?

Crimefree said:
First all criminologists recognise that laws have some deterrent effect. The more swift the arrest and punishment the better it is. Cesare Bacceria 1764

You cannot change human behaviour without attending to the causes. Advertising the behaviour is unacceptable is not attending to the causes.

We know those causes they are all social problems. Overcrowding, unemployment, poverty, disparity between rich and poor, break down of the family unit, drug abuse (symptom), alcohol abuse (symptom) , education, housing, loss of dignity......

Gun control fixes not one of those. What it does do is waste billions that could be better spent thanks to the uncaring paranoid gun control advocates. That is how gun control increases crime. Removing the money that should be spent on solving the social problems.
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Agreed so it is just another red herring buy the gun pro to keep insisting that this has anything to do with crime.
 
Re: Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?

soylentgreen said:
Agreed so it is just another red herring buy the gun pro to keep insisting that this has anything to do with crime.
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Red herring???? That is totally crazy. It is a statement of fact to gun controls red herring of guns cause crime and need laws to control gun to reduce crime.

Now if anything that is a red herring and a complete waste of time money and resources. It is gun control that defects the legislation, government, money and resources not firearm owners.

Guns do not cause crime. Insisting they do is just another that gun control uses.
 
Re: Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?

The title is sort of a non starter for me.

Guns don't really stop the bad guys, as they will always be out there looking for victims.

A gun does give the "average Joe" a means for protection against a bad guy.
 
Re: Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?

TurtleDude said:
well 80% or MORE of homicides committed by armed individuals =and 80% or more of armed robbery or armed assault are perpetrated by people with felony records. since juvenile records are not discoverable many young gang bangers aren't listed as felons

bottom line most gun crime is committed by people who cannot legally own firearms. Those are the bad people
Click to expand...

then it appears you do agree with gun control
the disallowing of felons to bear arms

Originally Posted by TurtleDude
... use restrictions that are the least restrictive means of preventing harm do not violate the right to keep and bear arms
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...
 
Re: Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?

justabubba said:
then it appears you do agree with gun control
the disallowing of felons to bear arms

...
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there are all sorts of "gun control" I believe in except its criminal control not gun control

gun control are laws that impede, harass or prevent honest citizens from owning guns, buying guns, carrying guns etc

criminal control are laws that punish harmful behavior.
 
Re: Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?

TurtleDude said:
there are all sorts of "gun control" I believe in except its criminal control not gun control

gun control are laws that impede, harass or prevent honest citizens from owning guns, buying guns, carrying guns etc

criminal control are laws that punish harmful behavior.
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Significantly, denying felons the ability to bear arms IS gun control
Glad to see you acknowledge your embrace of reasonable gun control
 
Re: Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?

Rucker61 said:
Like the DOJ? See studies and reports like "Summary of Select Firearms Violence Prevention Strategies" and "Victimization During Household Burglary", both published in 2010. See "First Reports Evaluating the Effectiveness of Strategies for Preventing Violence: Firearms Laws" from the CDC, published 2003.

https://www.cdc.gov/Mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm

See "Elevated Rates of Urban Firearm Violence and Opportunities for Prevention", CDC, 2015

CDC Delaware Final Report 110315
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My point was that the NRA opposed the studies... And they also apparently supported a law saying that doctors should not discuss gun safety with their parents, which is like prohibiting them from telling parents not to leave household poisons near toddlers. Don't know how the CDC got around the ban I spoke of originally. My larger point is that looking around the world, fewer guns tend to mean fewer gun deaths... Friend of mine has been in a wheelchair as a quad for 30 plus years after being shot... Being armed would have done him no good, but if his assailant had more difficulty getting a gun, maybe... I am sure you could counter with a story of how gun possession saved a life... As I have said, the battle for what I advocate has been lost... The US is an outlier in the developed world, much as we are on health care, another juicy topic... (Down the road, we will have some form of single-payer like we already do for old folks like me... the pendulum may swing even later on guns, after all, the NRA used to support gun control.) The only strategy for my side is to work around the edges and hopefully save a few lives and bodies. After all, we've succeeded in controlling machine guns... Tomorrow the world, comrades! :)
 
Re: Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?

Crimefree said:
Red herring???? That is totally crazy. It is a statement of fact to gun controls red herring of guns cause crime and need laws to control gun to reduce crime.

Now if anything that is a red herring and a complete waste of time money and resources. It is gun control that defects the legislation, government, money and resources not firearm owners.

Guns do not cause crime. Insisting they do is just another that gun control uses.
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It is an amusement that we both agree it is a false argument but disagree on who is making the argument.

To me it is just a well used ploy by the pro gun to set up a false argument of what the other side are saying so that they can have an easy time knocking down a bad argument and therefor not have to spend time arguing against the actual good arguments for safety with guns. It is an avoidance issue by the pro gun.

To be fair the weak minded who only seek simple minded solutions like banning guns do exist as well. But the pro gun do themselves no favours by continuously dwelling on them and ignoring the better ideas. If this is to progress at all it will not be done by pandering to these false arguments. But then there are the weak minded on the pro gun side that argue they need to be locked and loaded every time they walk into a mall.

The whole guns are needed for crime is not an argument it is a merry go round that goes nowhere, and deliberately so.

i still suspect that this is because americans have two problems with rights. They mistake freedom of speech for talking **** and for some they actually believe stupidity is a right and they are determined to exercise that right.
 
Re: Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?

soylentgreen said:
To me it is just a well used ploy by the pro gun to set up a false argument of what the other side are saying so that they can have an easy time knocking down a bad argument...
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We don't have to make up bad arguments for the anti-gun side. They are perfectly capable of doing so themselves.

and therefor not have to spend time arguing against the actual good arguments for safety with guns. It is an avoidance issue by the pro gun.
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We're all about safety with guns. What "good arguments" are you presenting?

To be fair the weak minded who only seek simple minded solutions like banning guns do exist as well. But the pro gun do themselves no favours by continuously dwelling on them and ignoring the better ideas.
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Which better ideas?

If this is to progress at all it will not be done by pandering to these false arguments. But then there are the weak minded on the pro gun side that argue they need to be locked and loaded every time they walk into a mall.
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The only time gun owners need a gun is when a crime is happening against them. Let us know ahead of time when that's going to happen and we'll only carry a gun at that time. What is wrong with concealed carry in public?

The whole guns are needed for crime is not an argument it is a merry go round that goes nowhere, and deliberately so.
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Not sure what you mean by this. Is it that guns aren't needed to prevent crime?

i still suspect that this is because americans have two problems with rights. They mistake freedom of speech for talking **** and for some they actually believe stupidity is a right and they are determined to exercise that right.
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This isn't limited to Americans.
 
Re: Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?

Rucker61 said:
We don't have to make up bad arguments for the anti-gun side. They are perfectly capable of doing so themselves.
.
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No, you do not need to make up these fake arguments. But it is a good way of stopping any intelligent argument from occurring by wasting every bodies time with the weak argument.

We're all about safety with guns. What "good arguments" are you presenting?
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Your all about safety but not lawfully about safety. Your safety rules are mere suggestions that are unenforceable.
Which better ideas?
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See above
The only time gun owners need a gun is when a crime is happening against them. Let us know ahead of time when that's going to happen and we'll only carry a gun at that time. What is wrong with concealed carry in public?
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Why do you need to carry at all would be the real question.
Not sure what you mean by this. Is it that guns aren't needed to prevent crime?
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No, it is that the argument is not needed to have a gun.
This isn't limited to Americans
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True but americans are better at it.
 
Re: Do you believe gun control will stop bad people? Banning guns?

soylentgreen said:
Your all about safety but not lawfully about safety. Your safety rules are mere suggestions that are unenforceable.
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Explain. I can infer what you're suggesting, but I'd prefer not to risk an incorrect inference.

Why do you need to carry at all would be the real question.
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For self defense against criminals? How is this even a question?

No, it is that the argument is not needed to have a gun.
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How do you know that it is not (I infer) ever necessary to have a gun?
 
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