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ATF White Paper on Gun Law Changes[W:106]
- Thread starter Rucker61
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Re: ATF White Paper on Gun Law Changes
Yes, something about needing a travel ban to supposedly protect American citizens while allowing paranoid schizophrenics to purchase assault weapons and unlimited ammo not making a whole lot of sense.
Yes, something about needing a travel ban to supposedly protect American citizens while allowing paranoid schizophrenics to purchase assault weapons and unlimited ammo not making a whole lot of sense.
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Re: ATF White Paper on Gun Law Changes
it proves what I have been saying for decades. Crime control is not the real motivation for the liberals desire for such regulation
it proves what I have been saying for decades. Crime control is not the real motivation for the liberals desire for such regulation
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Re: ATF White Paper on Gun Law Changes
what stupid nonsense. if someone has been adjudicated mentally incompetent they cannot buy or own weapons. what else do you left-wingers want?
what stupid nonsense. if someone has been adjudicated mentally incompetent they cannot buy or own weapons. what else do you left-wingers want?
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Re: ATF White Paper on Gun Law Changes
BWhahaahahaha.
You can't purchase an actual 'assault weapon' without a Class III license. While it might be theoretically possible for a paranoid-schitz to get a Class III, it isn't likely.
And anyone can already purchase unlimited ammo.
Neither of these things you're whining about would be changed under the white paper recommendations. I'm guessing you didn't read it.
BWhahaahahaha.
You can't purchase an actual 'assault weapon' without a Class III license. While it might be theoretically possible for a paranoid-schitz to get a Class III, it isn't likely.
And anyone can already purchase unlimited ammo.
Neither of these things you're whining about would be changed under the white paper recommendations. I'm guessing you didn't read it.
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Re: ATF White Paper on Gun Law Changes
The EO from Obama protected no one, as everyone that would have been affected was already a prohibited person, which means that the Congressional didn't put us anymore at risk.
The EO from Obama protected no one, as everyone that would have been affected was already a prohibited person, which means that the Congressional didn't put us anymore at risk.
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Re: ATF White Paper on Gun Law Changes
It sort of appeared to be a pavlovian attack on gun owners and had nothing to do with the topic
It sort of appeared to be a pavlovian attack on gun owners and had nothing to do with the topic
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Re: ATF White Paper on Gun Law Changes
We want the rule that includes that information in background check results that House Republicans rolled back several days ago with Trump's support. That information is not otherwise independently available to dealers - which is why insane people can and have easily acquired the weapons they've used to commit homicide.
We want the rule that includes that information in background check results that House Republicans rolled back several days ago with Trump's support. That information is not otherwise independently available to dealers - which is why insane people can and have easily acquired the weapons they've used to commit homicide.
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Re: ATF White Paper on Gun Law Changes
Actually they did because now we're going back to relying on mentally deranged people attempting to purchase a weapon with the intent of using it in the commission of a crime to be honest and tell the dealer they are a prohibited person themselves rather than providing dealers that information in the background check results. The rule was implemented precisely because mentally deranged people were lying (surprise!) and able to purchase guns that were used to commit murder because they otherwise passed their background checks.
Actually they did because now we're going back to relying on mentally deranged people attempting to purchase a weapon with the intent of using it in the commission of a crime to be honest and tell the dealer they are a prohibited person themselves rather than providing dealers that information in the background check results. The rule was implemented precisely because mentally deranged people were lying (surprise!) and able to purchase guns that were used to commit murder because they otherwise passed their background checks.
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Re: ATF White Paper on Gun Law Changes
Um, bud, that whole thing apparently wasn't working worth a darn already....
Um, bud, that whole thing apparently wasn't working worth a darn already....
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Re: ATF White Paper on Gun Law Changes
It was just finalized in December and prepped for implementation last month.
It was just finalized in December and prepped for implementation last month.
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Re: ATF White Paper on Gun Law Changes
That "rule" was very limited: it required the SSA to report to NICS all recipients of SSID and SSI funds who had a representative payee assigned to them due to mental incompetence. According to the SSA, anyone who is assigned a representative payee due to mental incompetence had to have been declared mentally incompetent by a court, and under 18 USC 922, that makes them a prohibited person. That's already the law. The courts and/or attending physicians have the obligation to report that name to NICS.
What the President is not supposed to do is issue EO's that change the law - to whit, 18 USC 922 is a law passed by Congress specifying exactly what classes of people are prohibited persons. Should that list be expanded or narrowed, it would have to go through Congress.
Lastly, someone's court declared mental incompetence is a record protected by HIPAA. The president can't legally order that protected information to be shared between two government agencies.
Addendum: Here's a list of those mental health groups who opposed the rule:
ADAPT, which “urged Congress to use the Congressional Rule Act to repeal this rule“; from the American Association of People with Disabilities, which pressed Congress “to support a Congressional Review Act (CRA) resolution to disapprove the Final Rule issued by the Social Security Administration (SSA)”; from the ACLU, which pushed “members of the House of Representatives to support the resolution disapproving the final rule of the Social Security Administration”; from The Arc of the United States, which asked “Congress to act, through the CRA process, to disapprove this new rule”; from the Association of Mature American Citizens, which exhorted “Congress to quickly pass this Joint Resolution and restore the basic Second Amendment rights this rule has abridged”; from the Autistic Self-Advocacy Network, which implored “Congress to act, through the CRA process, to disapprove this new rule and prevent the damage that it inflicts on the disability community”; and, in addition, from the Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law, the Consortium for Citizens with Disabilities, the Disability Law Center of Alaska, the National Alliance on Mental Illness, the National Association of County Behavioral Health and Developmental Disability Directors, the National Association for Rights Protection and Advocacy, the National Association for Rural Mental Health, the National Council on Disability, the National Council of Independent Living, the National Coalition of Mental Health Recovery, the National Disability Leadership Alliance, the National Disability Rights Network, the New York Association of Psychiatric Rehabilitation Services, and Safari Club International. All of them — every single one — urged that the rule be killed.
Read more at: No, the GOP Did Not Just Repeal the Background Check System or Give Guns to the Mentally Il | National Review
That "rule" was very limited: it required the SSA to report to NICS all recipients of SSID and SSI funds who had a representative payee assigned to them due to mental incompetence. According to the SSA, anyone who is assigned a representative payee due to mental incompetence had to have been declared mentally incompetent by a court, and under 18 USC 922, that makes them a prohibited person. That's already the law. The courts and/or attending physicians have the obligation to report that name to NICS.
What the President is not supposed to do is issue EO's that change the law - to whit, 18 USC 922 is a law passed by Congress specifying exactly what classes of people are prohibited persons. Should that list be expanded or narrowed, it would have to go through Congress.
Lastly, someone's court declared mental incompetence is a record protected by HIPAA. The president can't legally order that protected information to be shared between two government agencies.
Addendum: Here's a list of those mental health groups who opposed the rule:
ADAPT, which “urged Congress to use the Congressional Rule Act to repeal this rule“; from the American Association of People with Disabilities, which pressed Congress “to support a Congressional Review Act (CRA) resolution to disapprove the Final Rule issued by the Social Security Administration (SSA)”; from the ACLU, which pushed “members of the House of Representatives to support the resolution disapproving the final rule of the Social Security Administration”; from The Arc of the United States, which asked “Congress to act, through the CRA process, to disapprove this new rule”; from the Association of Mature American Citizens, which exhorted “Congress to quickly pass this Joint Resolution and restore the basic Second Amendment rights this rule has abridged”; from the Autistic Self-Advocacy Network, which implored “Congress to act, through the CRA process, to disapprove this new rule and prevent the damage that it inflicts on the disability community”; and, in addition, from the Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law, the Consortium for Citizens with Disabilities, the Disability Law Center of Alaska, the National Alliance on Mental Illness, the National Association of County Behavioral Health and Developmental Disability Directors, the National Association for Rights Protection and Advocacy, the National Association for Rural Mental Health, the National Council on Disability, the National Council of Independent Living, the National Coalition of Mental Health Recovery, the National Disability Leadership Alliance, the National Disability Rights Network, the New York Association of Psychiatric Rehabilitation Services, and Safari Club International. All of them — every single one — urged that the rule be killed.
Read more at: No, the GOP Did Not Just Repeal the Background Check System or Give Guns to the Mentally Il | National Review
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Re: ATF White Paper on Gun Law Changes
The rule only affect SSID and SSI recipients with designated payees due to court-declared mental incompetence.
The rule only affect SSID and SSI recipients with designated payees due to court-declared mental incompetence.
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Re: ATF White Paper on Gun Law Changes
Yes, which is huge step in the right direction. Unless you actually believe that we should just trust mentally deranged people intent on committing homicide to self-report their prohibited person status to dealers instead of notifying dealers that they are a prohibited person through the background check system.
Yes, which is huge step in the right direction. Unless you actually believe that we should just trust mentally deranged people intent on committing homicide to self-report their prohibited person status to dealers instead of notifying dealers that they are a prohibited person through the background check system.
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Re: ATF White Paper on Gun Law Changes
Did you miss the part where anyone on the list had to have been already declared mentally incompetent and thus a prohibited person? They would have already been reported to NICS.
Here's the funny part: https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.NSF/lnx/0200502020
It only assigns representative payees to those who can't manage their finances due to mental incompetence. Nothing in there says that a schizophrenic, sadist, manic/depressive or other mentally ill people aren't capable of managing their own SSID and SSI funding. This "rule" wouldn't actually catch anyone capable of using a gun.
Did you miss the part where anyone on the list had to have been already declared mentally incompetent and thus a prohibited person? They would have already been reported to NICS.
Here's the funny part: https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.NSF/lnx/0200502020
It only assigns representative payees to those who can't manage their finances due to mental incompetence. Nothing in there says that a schizophrenic, sadist, manic/depressive or other mentally ill people aren't capable of managing their own SSID and SSI funding. This "rule" wouldn't actually catch anyone capable of using a gun.
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Re: ATF White Paper on Gun Law Changes
It would catch people such as Colby Delana, a paranoid schizophrenic who purchased a gun with money from her social security disability checks and was able to do so because she otherwise passed the background check. She used it to murder her father before attempting suicide with it.
It would catch people such as Colby Delana, a paranoid schizophrenic who purchased a gun with money from her social security disability checks and was able to do so because she otherwise passed the background check. She used it to murder her father before attempting suicide with it.
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Re: ATF White Paper on Gun Law Changes
You mean you want to violate patient-doctor privilege and allow people to be barred of their constitutional rights with something less than due process and a court adjudication?
You mean you want to violate patient-doctor privilege and allow people to be barred of their constitutional rights with something less than due process and a court adjudication?
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Re: ATF White Paper on Gun Law Changes
was she adjudicated mentally incompetent? what level of mental illness and burden of proof should be required before someone is stripped of their rights.
was she adjudicated mentally incompetent? what level of mental illness and burden of proof should be required before someone is stripped of their rights.
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Re: ATF White Paper on Gun Law Changes
Based on her story, Colby Delana had not been assigned a representative payee, such as her mom, who would have been the one who received the check rather than Colby. If she had been taken to court and declared mentally incompetent by her parents, her name would have been placed into the NICS database and therefore unable to buy a gun from the FFL.
Of course, you ignore that over half of all suicides are through non-firearm means, and that hanging/suffocation suicide rate for females has grown by 191% since 1990, according to CDC WISQARS data. In fact, non-firearm suicides occur at almost 2.5 times the rate of firearm suicides, meaning she could have very easily found another way.
Edit: 31% of women murders used a knife to kill their victim, including in one of the rare homicides in my town, where the women simply walked up to her live-in partner and cut his throat with a butcher knife.
https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/wo.pdf
Based on her story, Colby Delana had not been assigned a representative payee, such as her mom, who would have been the one who received the check rather than Colby. If she had been taken to court and declared mentally incompetent by her parents, her name would have been placed into the NICS database and therefore unable to buy a gun from the FFL.
Of course, you ignore that over half of all suicides are through non-firearm means, and that hanging/suffocation suicide rate for females has grown by 191% since 1990, according to CDC WISQARS data. In fact, non-firearm suicides occur at almost 2.5 times the rate of firearm suicides, meaning she could have very easily found another way.
Edit: 31% of women murders used a knife to kill their victim, including in one of the rare homicides in my town, where the women simply walked up to her live-in partner and cut his throat with a butcher knife.
https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/wo.pdf
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Re: ATF White Paper on Gun Law Changes
1) There is no violation of doctor-patient privilege. The person in question or their legal guardian voluntarily reveals that information to the government when they apply for social security disability benefits and the rule does not reveal the reason for the prohibited person status in the background check results. NICS is provided only with a name, dob, sex, and social security number in these cases.
2) No constitutional right is open-ended and rule requires the impacted persons to be notified and they are entitled to appeal with adjudication. Due process is satisfied.
1) There is no violation of doctor-patient privilege. The person in question or their legal guardian voluntarily reveals that information to the government when they apply for social security disability benefits and the rule does not reveal the reason for the prohibited person status in the background check results. NICS is provided only with a name, dob, sex, and social security number in these cases.
2) No constitutional right is open-ended and rule requires the impacted persons to be notified and they are entitled to appeal with adjudication. Due process is satisfied.
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Re: ATF White Paper on Gun Law Changes
the question I ask is what level of mental illness should be required to strip someone of their rights. and some forms of mental illness DO NOT increase any propensity for violence. Seems to me what is happening is those who don't want legal gun ownership are using any means available to strip people of their ability to own firearms
the question I ask is what level of mental illness should be required to strip someone of their rights. and some forms of mental illness DO NOT increase any propensity for violence. Seems to me what is happening is those who don't want legal gun ownership are using any means available to strip people of their ability to own firearms
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Re: ATF White Paper on Gun Law Changes
If the name comes from the SSA, are they reporting felons on their list, or domestic violence offenders?
Why aren't you getting that to even get on the SSA's list to be reported to NICS they would have to have been adjudicated mentally incompetent by a court and already reported to NICS, legally?
If the name comes from the SSA, are they reporting felons on their list, or domestic violence offenders?
Why aren't you getting that to even get on the SSA's list to be reported to NICS they would have to have been adjudicated mentally incompetent by a court and already reported to NICS, legally?
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Re: ATF White Paper on Gun Law Changes
I'm not going down the rabbit hole you're trying to create. We aren't discussing who should or should not be a prohibited person - as I understand it the people we're discussing are prohibited persons under the law. The issue we are discussing is how the dealer is supposed to know that and the best method of notifying a dealer of that information when the choice as it was before the rule and is now that the rule has been rolled back is between relying on the mentally deranged to self-report or notifying the dealer through the background check system.
I'm not going down the rabbit hole you're trying to create. We aren't discussing who should or should not be a prohibited person - as I understand it the people we're discussing are prohibited persons under the law. The issue we are discussing is how the dealer is supposed to know that and the best method of notifying a dealer of that information when the choice as it was before the rule and is now that the rule has been rolled back is between relying on the mentally deranged to self-report or notifying the dealer through the background check system.
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Re: ATF White Paper on Gun Law Changes
Whether or not these people should already be in NICS is irrelevant - we know for a fact there are gaps in reporting because the State laws for reporting mental health history are a patchwork of differing requirements and standards on what is voluntary and what isn't. This has led to several high profile cases of mentally unstable people who would not be qualified under federal law because of their mental history but passed background checks anyway and committed murder with legally purchased firearms because the information was never reported. This rule solved for some of those gaps.
Whether or not these people should already be in NICS is irrelevant - we know for a fact there are gaps in reporting because the State laws for reporting mental health history are a patchwork of differing requirements and standards on what is voluntary and what isn't. This has led to several high profile cases of mentally unstable people who would not be qualified under federal law because of their mental history but passed background checks anyway and committed murder with legally purchased firearms because the information was never reported. This rule solved for some of those gaps.