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Businesses Banning guns in CC States...

MaggieD said:
Oh, stop it. Cheap shot. Makes no sense. And I know that because I've taken them myself. :lol:
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No, now 'cmon Maggie. My comment is rational and really speaks to the condition of our society; an influence that I think controls you in some manner. Maybe direct experience, but I can't speak to THAT as I don't know. You carry a gun because you are in fear of your safety. THAT is an irrational thought were no direct threat is part of your every day experience. You say you live in the Chicago area, which indicates a suburb; you're not in South Side in other words. So you are either, politically motivated, suffering form some earlier experience, or you live in a bad neighborhood. The rates in the Chicago area run from .05 to .1 per thousand, so your chances of being accosted are slim at at best. So my argument is completely sound. I'm not anti gun, I'm anti you getting hurt. Where you are concerned here, martial arts would probably serve you much better than a gun.
 
Goshin said:
In SC, when we first got CWP permits, a lot of businesses posted against carry. A lot of carriers said they'd not patronize such places.

Now, very very few post against carry. I imagine the reasons are familiarity, and over time seeing that CWP is rarely ever a problem (and sometimes a benefit), and some revenue loss from posting have persuaded most to stop posting.


Not to mention large numbers of women getting CWPs these days, and women being the big shoppers for the most part probably contributed.

SC now has very specific rules about signage and how it must be posted, and if a biz doesn't conform to those stringent requirements it is not considered legally posted against CWP permit holders.


Personally I think that businesses that are normally open to the public should not be permitted to post against carry unless they put up metal detectors and armed guards to enforce it. If they fail to do so make them liable for any criminal harm patrons suffer while in their establishment or pkg lot[.
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Now YOU want to violate the rights of others...
 
RetiredNSmilin said:
Not only noted, I admit it. NOTE away...need a pen?
I am 100% hypocritical about immigration.
Remember my thread where i hired four illegals to build the railroad tie backstop in my backyard.

Hell yes, I am hypocritical about it.

I hire illegals to do work I cannot, and i carry concealed without a license......DEAL WITH IT.
I prefer my open honesty about it rather than puffed up fake self-righteousness.
Can you wrap your head around this?
I have no problem with it....I really LOVE my wall, and like knowing I can save a life if possible.

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I'm quite happy you admit it so when you and your ilk get self righteous i know that your comments are full of ****. Your comments show lack of integrity. Thank you again for showing that most cons are hypocrites and not to be trusted with anything.
 
jet57 said:
No, now 'cmon Maggie. My comment is rational and really speaks to the condition of our society; an influence that I think controls you in some manner. Maybe direct experience, but I can't speak to THAT as I don't know. You carry a gun because you are in fear of your safety. THAT is an irrational thought were no direct threat is part of your every day experience. You say you live in the Chicago area, which indicates a suburb; you're not in South Side in other words. So you are either, politically motivated, suffering form some earlier experience, or you live in a bad neighborhood. The rates in the Chicago area run from .05 to .1 per thousand, so your chances of being accosted are slim at at best. So my argument is completely sound. I'm not anti gun, I'm anti you getting hurt. Where you are concerned here, martial arts would probably serve you much better than a gun.
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You've made one huge and incorrect assumption. I've never CC'd. I exercised my right to do so out of principle, taking the 16-hour required course. I go to the gun range for fun at least once a month, but I don't carry.

Several reasons for this in case you wonder... #1, Illinois doesn't protect a lawful shooter from civil liability, and I don't trust insurance policies that claim to protect you. #2, I don't like the idea of leaving my gun in the car when a place I'm going doesn't allow them. #3, I am quite confident there are much better shooters than I who ARE carrying weapons. I gladly leave those decisions to others more confident than I. ;)

Before you yell at me, I concede my post was misleading. You're right. Suburban Chicago. Extremely low crime rate.
 
Ikari said:
Their property, their choice. If I don't like it, I can find someplace else to spend my money.
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Unless they are checking everyone that walks through they will never know who is packing and who isn't that is the entire point of CC
 
ludin said:
Unless they are checking everyone that walks through they will never know who is packing and who isn't that is the entire point of CC
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I don't think that is the entire point, but yes, unless they have some way of checking everyone there is no way to know for sure and someone could bring a gun into the store regardless.
 
jet57 said:
Now YOU want to violate the rights of others...
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No sir. I want them held accountable for putting me at risk while failing to provide proper security after forcing me to disarm.


Let's understand something.... truly private, private property, is not normally open to the general public. That's your house, your yard.

Commercial property that IS open to the general public, like a store, is a different sort of "private" property. The public is not only invited but encouraged to enter, indeed their viability as a biz depends on it.

Yet some of them wish to impede my right to life by impeding my ability to defend myself in their building or pkg lot while failing to ensure that criminals don't enter armed.




Signs ONLY disarm the law-abiding. It is well to remember this. Posting signs without enforcing same with metal detectors and armed guards is nothing more than a Victim Disarmament Zone and criminal happy hunting ground.


It is sheer folly in most cases. It endangers the public needlessly while encouraging criminals. It SHOULD be discouraged by making such a biz liable for criminal harm to visitors they require to disarm (while not seeing to the disarming of criminals!).



(This never happens...)
gunfreezonecartoon.jpg




Just as we would hold a biz accountable and liable if a customer fell through an unsafe floor, we should hold a biz accountable for disarming lawful customers while not providing security against criminals who OBVIOUSLY won't respect a mere sign.
 
I need to go get mine.
I just don't have time right now.

I have a hunting license but I guess I will take the course again.
I think I found the gun I want to get.

The sw shield seems to be the perfect gun.
For concealed carry.

Or the ruger lcp2
 
jet57 said:
No, now 'cmon Maggie. My comment is rational and really speaks to the condition of our society; an influence that I think controls you in some manner. Maybe direct experience, but I can't speak to THAT as I don't know. You carry a gun because you are in fear of your safety. THAT is an irrational thought were no direct threat is part of your every day experience. You say you live in the Chicago area, which indicates a suburb; you're not in South Side in other words. So you are either, politically motivated, suffering form some earlier experience, or you live in a bad neighborhood. The rates in the Chicago area run from .05 to .1 per thousand, so your chances of being accosted are slim at at best. So my argument is completely sound. I'm not anti gun, I'm anti you getting hurt. Where you are concerned here, martial arts would probably serve you much better than a gun.
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It is not irrational. It is entirely rational.


Yes, the odds a given individual will face armed criminals and be in need of a weapon is typically a small chance in most places.




However, this must be balanced against the CONSEQUENCES of finding yourself in such a situation without being prepared and well-equipped to deal with it. Those consequences can be extremely severe. EXTREMELY severe.


It is insurance against an even which is unlikely but whose consequences could be catastrophic... like a major house fire.


Also some studies indicate that while your day-to-day odds of being the subject of a violent crime might be low, your lifetime odds of it happening are actually fairly high.


It is every bit as rational as having a fire extinguisher and insurance on your home; as having a medkit and first-aid training; and it doesn't increase your odds of getting hurt unless you're a druggie, criminal or idiot.


Your advice to study martial arts instead (rather than as an accompaniment) is ludicrous. Stats show resisting with a firearm to be far more effective at preventing serious victim injury. Not to mention expecting a 120 lb woman with typically 3 weeks to 6 mos training to fight a 200 lb man who might also have some training isn't a very good plan overall.
 
Unless it is a place specifically codified in law, like schools or government buildings, I ignore the sign. Obviously if I am asked to leave I leave but it has never happened.
 
Goshin said:
No sir. I want them held accountable for putting me at risk while failing to provide proper security after forcing me to disarm.


Let's understand something.... truly private, private property, is not normally open to the general public. That's your house, your yard.

Commercial property that IS open to the general public, like a store, is a different sort of "private" property. The public is not only invited but encouraged to enter, indeed their viability as a biz depends on it.

Yet some of them wish to impede my right to life by impeding my ability to defend myself in their building or pkg lot while failing to ensure that criminals don't enter armed.




Signs ONLY disarm the law-abiding. It is well to remember this. Posting signs without enforcing same with metal detectors and armed guards is nothing more than a Victim Disarmament Zone and criminal happy hunting ground.


It is sheer folly in most cases. It endangers the public needlessly while encouraging criminals. It SHOULD be discouraged by making such a biz liable for criminal harm to visitors they require to disarm (while not seeing to the disarming of criminals!).



(This never happens...)
View attachment 67211713




Just as we would hold a biz accountable and liable if a customer fell through an unsafe floor, we should hold a biz accountable for disarming lawful customers while not providing security against criminals who OBVIOUSLY won't respect a mere sign.
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Are you forced to shop there? No. So it is YOUR choice to enter the store knowing they don't allow firearms. Don't like it don't shop there.

Your as bad as the Lady that spilt hot coffee on her and blamed McDonald's.
 
Praxas said:
Are you forced to shop there? No. So it is YOUR choice to enter the store knowing they don't allow firearms. Don't like it don't shop there.
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Ah, so easy to say.

"If they don't like working here they can get a job somewhere else!" is comparable.

"If my hoes don't like the way I treat them they can find them another pimp!" not far off. :roll:



So what if it is ALL stores in town? Or if that store is the only one in town with something you have to have?



Even if it isn't why should they be allowed to discriminate against me for exercising my Constitutional rights any more than cake bakers and gay weddings? Hint the former right is EXPLICITLY in the BoR.... the latter not so much.
 
Goshin said:
Ah, so easy to say.

"If they don't like working here they can get a job somewhere else!" is comparable.

"If my hoes don't like the way I treat them they can find them another pimp!" not far off. :roll:



So what if it is ALL stores in town? Or if that store is the only one in town with something you have to have?



Even if it isn't why should they be allowed to discriminate against me for exercising my Constitutional rights any more than cake bakers and gay weddings? Hint the former right is EXPLICITLY in the BoR.... the latter not so much.
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It's THEIR constitutional right to not allow firearms on THEIR private property.
 
MaggieD said:
Why do businesses bother to ban guns in a state that allows concealed carry? What's the point? If I'm carrying a weapon, you're not going to know about it anyway. I don't understand the logic, and why should I leave my gun in my car trunk to come into your store? If you're not searching me or using metal detectors, I'm not obliged to incriminate myself...

i find myself resenting businesses who post these signs. Are THEY going to keep me safe? Are THEY making sure bad guys don't come in with weapons? If they abridge my Constitutional right to protect myself on their property, should they then be liable for the bad acts of others? I think they should be...

You?
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While agree they ARE stupid, they have the right to be stupid. Of course, I see it as a form of discrimination based on a constitutional right and on those grounds, I have a serious problem with it.
 
Praxas said:
Are you forced to shop there? No. So it is YOUR choice to enter the store knowing they don't allow firearms. Don't like it don't shop there.

Your as bad as the Lady that spilt hot coffee on her and blamed McDonald's.
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Interesting. The right to keep and bear arms is a Constitutionally protected right. So...as I understand you correctly you are fine with individual business owners denying service to people, even when it concerns Constitutionally protected rights. Is that a correct assessment? I mean...I personally agree...just want to make sure we are all on the same page. They can still exercise their rights...just in someone elses store. Right?
 
Goshin said:
No sir. I want them held accountable for putting me at risk while failing to provide proper security after forcing me to disarm.


Let's understand something.... truly private, private property, is not normally open to the general public. That's your house, your yard.

Commercial property that IS open to the general public, like a store, is a different sort of "private" property. The public is not only invited but encouraged to enter, indeed their viability as a biz depends on it.

Yet some of them wish to impede my right to life by impeding my ability to defend myself in their building or pkg lot while failing to ensure that criminals don't enter armed.




Signs ONLY disarm the law-abiding. It is well to remember this. Posting signs without enforcing same with metal detectors and armed guards is nothing more than a Victim Disarmament Zone and criminal happy hunting ground.


It is sheer folly in most cases. It endangers the public needlessly while encouraging criminals. It SHOULD be discouraged by making such a biz liable for criminal harm to visitors they require to disarm (while not seeing to the disarming of criminals!).



(This never happens...)
View attachment 67211713




Just as we would hold a biz accountable and liable if a customer fell through an unsafe floor, we should hold a biz accountable for disarming lawful customers while not providing security against criminals who OBVIOUSLY won't respect a mere sign.
Click to expand...

An excellent post. And a perfect distinction between personal private property and open-to-the-public business private property. In fact, if a strange and scarey guy came to my front door and asked to come in, I don't have to let him in. If I own a bakery and don't let him in, he can sue me for discrimination. Completely different.
 
I just don't get this whole thing. Why are people so afraid to go out in public unarmed? If you just exercise some basic common sense, the odds of you being in a situation where you needed to defend yourself at all (especially with a firearm) are so ridiculously low that it isn't worth spending time worrying about it. Are we just becoming a nation of frightened little ******s? I just don't get it.
 
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VanceMack said:
Interesting. The right to keep and bear arms is a Constitutionally protected right. So...as I understand you correctly you are fine with individual business owners denying service to people, even when it concerns Constitutionally protected rights. Is that a correct assessment? I mean...I personally agree...just want to make sure we are all on the same page. They can still exercise their rights...just in someone elses store. Right?
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I am 100% for a business to decide on their own they want a gun free zone. I am for an individual to carry (concealed or open) in public and I am against the government making gunfree zones forced on individual owners. The grey area for me is federal and state buildings having gun free zones. I can understand the need for gun free zones in those areas especially in court rooms given that officials are easy targets.
 
MaggieD said:
Why do businesses bother to ban guns in a state that allows concealed carry? What's the point? If I'm carrying a weapon, you're not going to know about it anyway. I don't understand the logic, and why should I leave my gun in my car trunk to come into your store? If you're not searching me or using metal detectors, I'm not obliged to incriminate myself...

i find myself resenting businesses who post these signs. Are THEY going to keep me safe? Are THEY making sure bad guys don't come in with weapons? If they abridge my Constitutional right to protect myself on their property, should they then be liable for the bad acts of others? I think they should be...

You?
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Likely, insurance.
 
heartfixer said:
I just don't get this whole thing. Why are people so afraid to go out in public unarmed? If you just exercise some basic common sense, the odds of you being in a situation where you needed to defend yourself at all (especially with a firearm) are so ridiculously low that it isn't worth spending time worrying about it. Are we just becoming a nation of frightened little ******s? I just don't get it.
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Welcome to DP, Heartfixer.
 
MaggieD said:
Why do businesses bother to ban guns in a state that allows concealed carry? What's the point? If I'm carrying a weapon, you're not going to know about it anyway. I don't understand the logic, and why should I leave my gun in my car trunk to come into your store? If you're not searching me or using metal detectors, I'm not obliged to incriminate myself...

i find myself resenting businesses who post these signs. Are THEY going to keep me safe? Are THEY making sure bad guys don't come in with weapons? If they abridge my Constitutional right to protect myself on their property, should they then be liable for the bad acts of others? I think they should be...

You?
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In many states, a "no guns" policy on business property has no force of law. The most they can do is ask you to leave if they somehow determine you have a firearm. So I carry anyway knowing they don't know I am carrying. Mind you, that varies state by state so check first. But regardless of how I feel about it, I support their right to do it. However, I don't see why they would not be responsible for your safety in the event something were to happen...
 
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heartfixer said:
I just don't get this whole thing. Why are people so afraid to go out in public unarmed? If you just exercise some basic common sense, the odds of you being in a situation where you needed to defend yourself at all (especially with a firearm) are so ridiculously low that it isn't worth spending time worrying about it. Are we just becoming a nation of frightened little ******s? I just don't get it.
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Pretty ignorant argument you bring to the forum. It is even less likely to be injured by a legal CCW holder. So who are the bigger frightened little ******s? The CCW holders or the ******s whining about CCW holders being ******s??? My body, my choice after all.:roll:
 
MaggieD said:
Why do businesses bother to ban guns in a state that allows concealed carry? What's the point?
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Consider this.

You're in a hardware store. There's a few dozen people around. Spread out though multiple isles.

A robbery goes down at the cash register.

How many guns get pulled? How many shots get fired? What kind of chain-reaction goes off after the first shot?
How do the armed people in the store identify the criminal, and more importantly, how do they identify the innocent?
You're in isle 7. Shots get fired. You pull you gun and run around the corner to find one guy standing over another guy with a gun pointed at him.
Who's the hero, and who's the criminal? What happens when the guy standing wheels around and points gun at you because you're now pointing a gun at him?

Vigilante justice could go horribly wrong for many innocent bystanders, as well as the employees.

I'm guessing that's the thought process.
 
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