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When Carrying Goes Wrong

Absentglare said:
This is the inhuman defense.

You manufacture an excuse for why this could never happen to an ordinary person. Well guess what, this guy isn't a different brand of human.

You better believe that the average gun carrier would sooner shoot a professional athlete like this coward did than get into a ****ing fist fight, or even a knife fight, with a professional athlete.
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That's pure conjecture. While criminals who carry weapons are more prone to use them in criminal acts (imagine that!) your average LAWFUL carrier is 5-15 times LESS likely to engage in a criminal act - Gun Facts | Gun Control Facts Concerning Concealed Carry
 
Rucker61 said:
Hard to fist fight someone who never gets out of the car or chases down someone. Since there are over 11 million CCW holders in the US, and so few shootings by CCW, it's presumed that most CCW aren't as hotheaded as the shooter. There are lots of everyone who aren't as hotheaded as the shooter and don't get into fistfights.
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And yet

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I can already tell you that about 100% of people who shoot someone with a gun were, in fact, carrying a gun.
 
calamity said:
Would you go up to a professional football player and start a fight if you were unarmed?

Yeah. The gun made that dude think he was 10-feet tall.
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Plenty of times have I seen people start fights with folks they obviously shouldn't. Stupid is as stupid does. A gun doesn;t make a person any more or less stupid.

The facts are what they are Calamity. If carrying a gun made you more likely to "think you are 10 feet tall" and more likely to be aggressive.. then Concealed weapons permit holders would be the most dangerous demographic. but studies show they are the most law abiding.

Sorry.. but now you are ignoring facts and operating on pure conjecture and emotion.
 
Lutherf said:
That's pure conjecture. While criminals who carry weapons are more prone to use them in criminal acts (imagine that!) your average LAWFUL carrier is 5-15 times LESS likely to engage in a criminal act - Gun Facts | Gun Control Facts Concerning Concealed Carry
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I said gun carriers, not "LAWFUL carrier," whatever the **** that means- it's a circular definition, the average person who never commits a crime has a lower crime rate than the general population. Gee, ya think?
 
Absentglare said:
And yet

89264cc54d609e7271cc97b0bf9234db.jpg


I can already tell you that about 100% of people who shoot someone with a gun were, in fact, carrying a gun.
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very true absentglare... everyone in a bike accident was probably riding a bike.. Riding in a car increases your chance of being in a car accident.

So?
 
Absentglare said:
I said gun carriers, not "LAWFUL carrier," whatever the **** that means- it's a circular definition, the average person who never commits a crime has a lower crime rate than the general population. Gee, ya think?
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You don't understand the difference between lawful carry and unlawful carry but still feel a need to pass judgement? Figures.

Lawful carry means that the person carrying the firearm is in compliance with state and federal laws while doing so. Unlawful carry is when a prohibited person (such as a convicted felon or drug user) is carrying. The latter group is where we tend to get the road rage shootings, drive bys and police shootings from.
 
Absentglare said:
And yet

89264cc54d609e7271cc97b0bf9234db.jpg


I can already tell you that about 100% of people who shoot someone with a gun were, in fact, carrying a gun.
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By far and away the vast majority who murder with a gun were not carrying legally... most murders are committed by previous felons.


CCW'er crimes are relatively rare.
 
Absentglare said:
I can already tell you that about 100% of people who shoot someone with a gun were, in fact, carrying a gun.
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So? Unless you're talking about confiscating all guns, your data isn't pertinent.
 
Absentglare said:
I can already tell you that about 100% of people who shoot someone with a gun were, in fact, carrying a gun.
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And in many cases, that's a good thing.
 
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jaeger19 said:
very true absentglare... everyone in a bike accident was probably riding a bike.. Riding in a car increases your chance of being in a car accident.

So?
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If more people carry guns, it stands to reason that more collateral damage will result.

Basic cause and effect.
 
Absentglare said:
If more people carry guns, it stands to reason that more collateral damage will result.

Basic cause and effect.
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And more people will be protected. States with more cars see more car deaths.
 
Lutherf said:
You don't understand the difference between lawful carry and unlawful carry but still feel a need to pass judgement? Figures.

Lawful carry means that the person carrying the firearm is in compliance with state and federal laws while doing so. Unlawful carry is when a prohibited person (such as a convicted felon or drug user) is carrying. The latter group is where we tend to get the road rage shootings, drive bys and police shootings from.
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It's not about understanding the difference. It's about your shifting the goalposts from what i said to your strawman.
 
Rucker61 said:
So? Unless you're talking about confiscating all guns, your data isn't pertinent.
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I'm just explaining that there's meaningful societal risk with indiscriminate, widespread firearm access.
 
Absentglare said:
If more people carry guns, it stands to reason that more collateral damage will result.

Basic cause and effect.
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Legal CCWers have an excellent record so far of rarely committing gun crimes, rarely shooting wrongfully, or hitting the wrong person, according to such statistics as are available.


In a nation of 300 million people there will always be exceptions here and there, but statistically speaking these are rare aberrations, almost Black Swan events.


If you're not a criminal and you don't go around starting fights for stupid reasons, you shouldn't fear legal CCWers. Your chances of being shot by a CCWer given the previous stipulation is about the same as being bitten by a shark if you don't swim in the ocean.
 
Absentglare said:
It's not about understanding the difference. It's about your shifting the goalposts from what i said to your strawman.
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There's no strawman. Carrying a weapon does not make a person more prone to violence. It merely makes a violent person more effective.
 
Goshin said:
By far and away the vast majority who murder with a gun were not carrying legally... most murders are committed by previous felons.


CCW'er crimes are relatively rare.
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That's irrelevant because the group of people carrying firearms is not limited to CCWers.

"The findings do not support the hypothesis that higher population firearm ownership rates reduce firearm-associated criminal perpetration. On the contrary, evidence shows that states with higher levels of firearm ownership have an increased risk for violent crimes perpetrated with a firearm."

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Firearm-Ownership-and-Violent-Crime.pdf
 
Absentglare said:
That's irrelevant because the group of people carrying firearms is not limited to CCWers.

"The findings do not support the hypothesis that higher population firearm ownership rates reduce firearm-associated criminal perpetration. On the contrary, evidence shows that states with higher levels of firearm ownership have an increased risk for violent crimes perpetrated with a firearm."

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Firearm-Ownership-and-Violent-Crime.pdf
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Let's make a law making concealed carry without a license or felons owning gun illegal.
 
CCW training in my state is 8 hours, including shooting on the range.


Both the legals and the shooting are fairly basic but they do serve the intended purpose pretty well. The latter is to see if you can shoot reasonably straight without doing something idiotic with your firearm. The former is officially to teach you about the legalities, but really the message conveyed is this: "You do NOT want to shoot your firearm at someone unless you absolutely HAVE to."


Per available stats this seems to be working fine, aside from the rare aberration.
 
Lutherf said:
There's no strawman. Carrying a weapon does not make a person more prone to violence. It merely makes a violent person more effective.
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Again, you cannot simply recategorize the "bad" people to ignore the problem. It isn't simply about an individual being "bad" ("person more prone to violence" or "violent person"). It's about an individual making a bad decision. Individuals make all sorts of bad decisions.

For that matter, is there any aspect of CCW acquisition that filters applicants on the basis that they are a "violent person" or what?
 
Absentglare said:
That's irrelevant because the group of people carrying firearms is not limited to CCWers.

"The findings do not support the hypothesis that higher population firearm ownership rates reduce firearm-associated criminal perpetration. On the contrary, evidence shows that states with higher levels of firearm ownership have an increased risk for violent crimes perpetrated with a firearm."

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Firearm-Ownership-and-Violent-Crime.pdf
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Making CCW illegal or banning it from your building has no effect on illegal carry, because... surprise... felons and terrorists with ill intent don't obey the law... and they're the ones that should mostly worry you, not us.
 
calamity said:
There is a reason I don't carry. And, this would be it.

Cardell Hayes found guilty of manslaughter in Will Smith shooting

It's just too easy to take a little squabble to the next level, and once it begins to escalate, staring at a 40-year prison term becomes all too much of a reality.

I bet Cardell wishes he wasn't carrying that night.
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I wouldn't use an incident unrelated to myself to determine my carry.

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http://www.freshfromflorida.com/content/download/7499/118851/cw_monthly.pdf

Most people make the right decision. Our statistics say so. It is up to YOU to keep yourself from doing something stupid. But if you don't think you can handle the responsibility, you don't want the responsibility, or you know yourself well enough? Good for you for making the right call. I have family with the license. They don't carry. They buy guns without the waiting period.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Absentglare said:
Again, you cannot simply recategorize the "bad" people to ignore the problem. It isn't simply about an individual being "bad" ("person more prone to violence" or "violent person"). It's about an individual making a bad decision. Individuals make all sorts of bad decisions.

For that matter, is there any aspect of CCW acquisition that filters applicants on the basis that they are a "violent person" or what?
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On the contrary, barring the rare poor decision, most shootings are perpetrated by criminals in the process of committing a criminal act. Even the domestic disputes that result in a shooting usually involve criminals.
 
calamity said:
It's becoming more common. Unfortunately.

IMO, a lot of people become a bit too bold when they know they have a loaded gun in their possession. It's probably human nature.
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really-most states have had shall carry laws around for at least a DECADE and there is no evidence of such shootings increasing even though the number of citizens legally carrying has increased dramatically in the last ten years
 
Rucker61 said:
Wow, your hindsight is 20/20, isn't it?
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Jet won't ever deal with the fact that CCW licenses are increasing but there is no evidence wrongful shootings are increasing. What we do get is that California, where Jet lives, is one of those backward states where shall carry is not the law and I assume (based on his posts) Jet can not get a CCW license and thus is upset that others, like me, can. The fact is, CCW holders are rarely involved in improper shootings. I know, I shot a mope with a licensed CW.
 
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