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Time to kick the Hornets nest!

ThoughtEx. said:
You have citeable sources as credible as those in the video to back these claims up?
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That Burger was not a Reagan Appointee?
that the second amendment was seen as an individual right before FDR-

are you serious?

or that the DEMOCRAT party is responsible for

1934 NFA and its later revisions
1968 GCA
1986 Hughes Amendment
the 1993 Brady Bill
the 1994 "Assault weapon ban"
the Lautenberg amendment
 
TurtleDude said:
That Burger was not a Reagan Appointee?
that the second amendment was seen as an individual right before FDR-

are you serious?

or that the DEMOCRAT party is responsible for

1934 NFA and its later revisions
1968 GCA
1986 Hughes Amendment
the 1993 Brady Bill
the 1994 "Assault weapon ban"
the Lautenberg amendment
Click to expand...

Do you read my responses, I said I knew he was off on Berger already. And I will always make the point that the right to bear arms was seen as an individual right myself.

Now about your views on the Democrats, please expand on that and how it relates to the video. Please cite sources and explain your reasoning behind each case. And then move on to the next part of the video. YOu still have quite a bit to go to change my mind about the NRA. Which is the topic of the discussion. Not the 2a.
 
ThoughtEx. said:
Do you read my responses, I said I knew he was off on Berger already. And I will always make the point that the right to bear arms was seen as an individual right myself.

Now about your views on the Democrats, please expand on that and how it relates to the video. Please cite sources and explain your reasoning behind each case. And then move on to the next part of the video. YOu still have quite a bit to go to change my mind about the NRA. Which is the topic of the discussion. Not the 2a.
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You haven't entirely explained why you have issues with the NRA... some don't want to watch the whole video, why don't you use your own words to sum up, as a pro-gun person, why you see the NRA as a problem for pro-gun people.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Trying to point out to the Left that their **** stinks is always a lost cause of course, but so often I cant help myself either...

I feel you Turtle...

We gotta try.
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its hilarious this guy claims to be pro gun and posts crap that the hard core bannerrhoid movement has posted for years.

BTW what is the credentials of the guy in the video? I did a little research about the Cracked.com and it appears this recent submission is consistent with May 2013, and July 2015 attacks on the NRA and this latest one is nothing more than butthurt rants based on Trump winning. Google the Cracked . com hatred of the NRA and you will see plenty of people taking about this consistently ANTI gun rights propaganda center apart.
 
Goshin said:
You haven't entirely explained why you have issues with the NRA... some don't want to watch the whole video, why don't you use your own words to sum up, as a pro-gun person, why you see the NRA as a problem for pro-gun people.
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more importantly, why would anyone even bother to continue with a video that starts off with two obvious lies. and does anyone think that a site that has spewed several attacks on the NRA is something a PRO GUN RIGHTS poster would trumpet?
 
TurtleDude said:
more importantly, why would anyone even bother to continue with a video that starts off with two obvious lies. and does anyone think that a site that has spewed several attacks on the NRA is something a PRO GUN RIGHTS poster would trumpet?
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I'm being polite and giving him the benefit of the doubt at this point.
 
ThoughtEx. said:
Do you read my responses, I said I knew he was off on Berger already. And I will always make the point that the right to bear arms was seen as an individual right myself.

Now about your views on the Democrats, please expand on that and how it relates to the video. Please cite sources and explain your reasoning behind each case. And then move on to the next part of the video. YOu still have quite a bit to go to change my mind about the NRA. Which is the topic of the discussion. Not the 2a.
Click to expand...

well given you have claimed to be pro gun yet you trumpet biased anti gun nonsense-its hard to figure out what mind needs changing

you cannot attack the NRA without understanding the environment the DNC created with its use of gun control to first pander to hand wringing ninnies, then to stave off nixon's attack on Democrats being weak on crime and then finally the DEms trying to counter attack the NRA
 
Goshin said:
You haven't entirely explained why you have issues with the NRA... some don't want to watch the whole video, why don't you use your own words to sum up, as a pro-gun person, why you see the NRA as a problem for pro-gun people.
Click to expand...

Gladly. I grew up reading my grandfather's NRA publications from long ago. I learned alot from them. And the biggest thing I learned from them is, gun education is the best way to ensure the safety of me and my neighbors. I grew up around guns, I love guns. And after awhile, as I kept reading NRA materials, they became more and more extreme. Now I am liberal in many ways. I speak to alot of liberals. And not a one expresses any concern about gun ownership rights. They are concerned about gun safety. And they are tired of being shouted over by the NRA, who constantly attack them putting words in their mouth. Straw manning their argument away from, how can this be safer. To we want to take your guns. And I feel most gun bans are coming from a place of opposing the NRA, in an us vs them mentality war. And not because anyone truly feels afraid of their neighbor buying an AR15. Which is a victim of it's own excellent advertising.

I love American History, and pride myself on absorbing as much of it as I can. And through the years, I have gotten the sense that the founding fathers left us the 2a, as a safeguard against govt tyranny. They felt that citizen militia's were the most effective fighting force in the world and wanted us to both have the right to form them, and arm them. Right now, in one state at least it is illegal to form a militia. That is a real 2a violation. But the NRA has hijacked the 2a and made it about personal gun ownership and nothing else. Using misinformation, Straw man tacitics, and straight up intimidation.

And I feel the NRA's bottom line is more about protecting their investors, than gun rights. Which I wholeheartedly believe are covered by the 9th amendment in the way that most believe the 2nd does. They are forcing us into a discussion that could conceivably go against gun rights. When we don't have to have it all. Common sense practices concerning guns, are all we need. They worked for hundreds of years. But all of a sudden, now they don't for some reason?

And as the video is the topic of discussion, why would they participate in the thread if they did not want to watch it.
 
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ThoughtEx. said:
Now about your views on the Democrats, please expand on that and how it relates to the video. Please cite sources and explain your reasoning behind each case. And then move on to the next part of the video. YOu still have quite a bit to go to change my mind about the NRA. Which is the topic of the discussion. Not the 2a.
Click to expand...

Why should anyone care if you change your mind? They don't need your dues or your support.
 
ThoughtEx. said:
Gladly. I grew up reading my grandfather's NRA publications from long ago. I learned alot from them. And the biggest thing I learned from them is, gun education is the best way to ensure the safety of me and my neighbors. I grew up around guns, I love guns. And after awhile, as I kept reading NRA materials, they became more and more extreme. Now I am liberal in many ways. I speak to alot of liberals. And not a one expresses any concern about gun ownership rights. They are concerned about gun safety. And they are tired of being shouted over by the NRA, who constantly attack them putting words in their mouth. Straw manning their argument away from, how can this be safer. To we want to take your guns. And I feel most gun bans are coming from a place of opposing the NRA, in an us vs them mentality war. And not because anyone truly feels afraid of their neighbor buying an AR15. Which is a victim of it's own excellent advertising.

I love American History, and pride myself on absorbing as much of it as I can. And through the years, I have gotten the sense that the founding fathers left us the 2a, as a safeguard against govt tyranny. They felt that citizen militia's were the most effective fighting force in the world and wanted us to both have the right to form them, and arm them. Right now, in one state at least it is illegal to form a militia. That is a real 2a violation. But the NRA has hijacked the 2a and made it about personal gun ownership and nothing else. Using misinformation, Straw man tacitics, and straight up intimidation.

And I feel the NRA's bottom line is more about protecting their investors, than gun rights. Which I wholeheartedly believe are covered by the 9th amendment in the way that most believe the 2nd does. They are forcing us into a discussion that could conceivably go against gun rights. When we don't have to have it all. Common sense practices concerning guns, are all we need. They worked for hundreds of years. But all of a sudden, now they don't for some reason?
Click to expand...

so what you really are saying is that you don't believe there is an individual right to KBA and somehow the NRA pushing that correct interpretation jeopardizes a right you claim doesn't really exist at all? We didn't have ANY federal gun restrictions until 1934 and that was based on lies and a claim that the commerce clause was actually intended to allow congress to regulate what PRIVATE citizens in their own states could do.

You claim to be a student of history and you completely prove you don't understand constitutional history or the history of gun control at all.

BTW supporting the individual rights position does not undercut "militias" but supporting the collective rights position undercuts both our rights and the ability to actually have a militia
 
Rucker61 said:
Why should anyone care if you change your mind? They don't need your dues or your support.
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I love his logic that he doesn't believe that there is an individual right to KBA and attacks the NRA for pushing that. How can you have a militia that would oppose a tyrannical government if only those in government approved bodies could own arms? If you don't have a right to KBA before you join a government controlled militia-then what good could that militia be for the reason he claims he supports the second amendment?

this is nothing more than someone who is a gun restrictionist trying to pretend he's pro gun ownership.
 
TurtleDude said:
so what you really are saying is that you don't believe there is an individual right to KBA and somehow the NRA pushing that correct interpretation jeopardizes a right you claim doesn't really exist at all? We didn't have ANY federal gun restrictions until 1934 and that was based on lies and a claim that the commerce clause was actually intended to allow congress to regulate what PRIVATE citizens in their own states could do.

You claim to be a student of history and you completely prove you don't understand constitutional history or the history of gun control at all.

BTW supporting the individual rights position does not undercut "militias" but supporting the collective rights position undercuts both our rights and the ability to actually have a militia
Click to expand...

I didn't say any of that. Now let's get back to you debunking this video. AS it and the NRA are the topics of this thread.
 
ThoughtEx. said:
I didn't say any of that. Now let's get back to you debunking this video. AS it and the NRA are the topics of this thread.
Click to expand...

it was debunked the second the guy said that the anti gun CJ was a Reagan appointee.

But now I am attacking your idiotic claims that the second amendment is not a guarantee of an individual right

BTW how does a "militia" that would oppose the GOVERNMENT get arms if the right is not individual?

do you even understand that a militia is something created to deal with an emergency and the members have to be armed prior to formation.

lets see, there is a tyrannical government in place-Do you think AFTER that happens people intent on overthrowing it are going to suddenly be able to obtain arms?

NO-

I want to examine your claims that you are pro gun but yet you post anti gun nonsense and claim the NRA is wrong for actually saying that the second amendment is something individuals can exercise
 
TurtleDude said:
it was debunked the second the guy said that the anti gun CJ was a Reagan appointee.

But now I am attacking your idiotic claims that the second amendment is not a guarantee of an individual right

BTW how does a "militia" that would oppose the GOVERNMENT get arms if the right is not individual?

do you even understand that a militia is something created to deal with an emergency and the members have to be armed prior to formation.

lets see, there is a tyrannical government in place-Do you think AFTER that happens people intent on overthrowing it are going to suddenly be able to obtain arms?

NO-

I want to examine your claims that you are pro gun but yet you post anti gun nonsense and claim the NRA is wrong for actually saying that the second amendment is something individuals can exercise
Click to expand...

You are making this personal. I am unable to do anything about it at this time, because of reasons. But, I just want to point out you are hijacking this thread and making it about me. You have been doing it this entire time. And I am asking you to stop using these tactics. If you don't want to discuss the topic, go elsewhere.
 
ThoughtEx. said:
I didn't say any of that. Now let's get back to you debunking this video. AS it and the NRA are the topics of this thread.
Click to expand...

this is part of your earlier comment
ThoughtEx. said:
Right now, in one state at least it is illegal to form a militia. That is a real 2a violation. But the NRA has hijacked the 2a and made it about personal gun ownership and nothing else. Using misinformation, Straw man tacitics, and straight up intimidation.

And I feel the NRA's bottom line is more about protecting their investors, than gun rights. .
Click to expand...

you are not being truthful, You are claiming that pushing the correct individual rights interpretation is exclusive of forming a militia which is inaccurate. BTW how can you form a militia unless the members are armed prior to the fact.

who are these "investors" other than us members? where do you get that nonsense.
 
TurtleDude said:
this is part of your earlier comment


you are not being truthful, You are claiming that pushing the correct individual rights interpretation is exclusive of forming a militia which is inaccurate. BTW how can you form a militia unless the members are armed prior to the fact.

who are these "investors" other than us members? where do you get that nonsense.
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The subject of the thread is the video and it's claims against the NRA. You are making this about me. I responded to a question asked in a polite way. And now you are using it to derail this thread. With impugnity I might add. I am asking you to stop. Calling me dishonest, and every other insult you have sent my way is not proving anything other than you are a bully.
 
ThoughtEx. said:
Oh, I listened, and I knew he was off on Berger. That's not the part I agreed with. Give us some more of your views on the content of the video. Get into the specifics. I want you to debunk every claim made against the NRA. That's what I want to see from you. It's why I posted this. For you. To see if you could. ;) And remember, it's the NRA on trial, not the 2a.
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If you knew that then maybe you would have thought, "This guy doesn't know his stuff so I won't use this idiot to prove a point." And yet you used the video made by a guy that doesn't know what he is talking about. Either you are lying about knowing that he was wrong about Berger or you just don't care about the accuracy of the garbage you present. I don't really care which. I just find it interesting.

The desire to want someone to debunk everything in the video is lazy on your part. If you want a point debunked at least have the courtesy to offer a point to debunk rather than say "debunk the whole video."

So what we have learned thus far is that you present inaccurate garbage or don't know what you are talking about and were to lazy to cite the points that you want "debunked". I learned all this and I haven't even watched the video. If I sound condescending it is only that I am reflecting the attitude of your post.
 
:lamo

Ummm...you realize the source of the video is CRACKED MAGAZINE???
 
ThoughtEx. said:
Gladly. I grew up reading my grandfather's NRA publications from long ago. I learned alot from them. And the biggest thing I learned from them is, gun education is the best way to ensure the safety of me and my neighbors. I grew up around guns, I love guns. And after awhile, as I kept reading NRA materials, they became more and more extreme.
Click to expand...


Could you provide examples of what you consider extreme?



Now I am liberal in many ways. I speak to alot of liberals. And not a one expresses any concern about gun ownership rights. They are concerned about gun safety. And they are tired of being shouted over by the NRA, who constantly attack them putting words in their mouth. Straw manning their argument away from, how can this be safer. To we want to take your guns. And I feel most gun bans are coming from a place of opposing the NRA, in an us vs them mentality war. And not because anyone truly feels afraid of their neighbor buying an AR15. Which is a victim of it's own excellent advertising.
Click to expand...


I don't know what liberals you've been talking to but I don't think this is an accurate representation of the situation. "Gun safety" is simply a buzzword used in place of "gun control" but meaning the exact same thing... more gun laws. While there are pro-gun liberals, by far most gun control proposals come from the Left, and they have co-opted the term "common sense gun safety" to mean "whatever gun control laws we're trying to pass at the moment".

Pelosi's massive and vast-reaching AWB effort a couple years ago was a prime example of Democrats trying to ban guns, and it is hardly just "in reaction to the NRA". No, there are plenty on the Left who think no American should be allowed to own an AR15.







I love American History, and pride myself on absorbing as much of it as I can. And through the years, I have gotten the sense that the founding fathers left us the 2a, as a safeguard against govt tyranny. They felt that citizen militia's were the most effective fighting force in the world and wanted us to both have the right to form them, and arm them. Right now, in one state at least it is illegal to form a militia. That is a real 2a violation. But the NRA has hijacked the 2a and made it about personal gun ownership and nothing else. Using misinformation, Straw man tacitics, and straight up intimidation.

And I feel the NRA's bottom line is more about protecting their investors, than gun rights. Which I wholeheartedly believe are covered by the 9th amendment in the way that most believe the 2nd does. They are forcing us into a discussion that could conceivably go against gun rights. When we don't have to have it all. Common sense practices concerning guns, are all we need. They worked for hundreds of years. But all of a sudden, now they don't for some reason?

And as the video is the topic of discussion, why would they participate in the thread if they did not want to watch it.
Click to expand...


As for the NRA and the 2a, I think the Founders were quite clear on their intent, that the 2A recognized the individual RKBA. If we ever lose the 2A argument, fine we'll argue the 9a. As it stands, I don't see where this is really a problem.

"Common sense practices", prior to Heller, included Chicago and DC making it nearly impossible for residents to own handguns or carry them... you ok with that?

As for the video, some don't like to watch them or have slow internet... or after the first two big mistakes don't trust the rest or feel like bothering.
 
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