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Gunsmiths vs Manufacturers

justabubba said:
mitigating the likelihood that weapons will be modified to do things the law prohibits
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None of the changes are considered a risk to society. The law doesn't prohibit any of the changes - it just makes them more expensive.
 
braindrain said:
Can a gun drive down the highway or crawl over rocks after being at a gunsmith.


What exactly do you think a gunsmith can do to a gun. Because a speed shop can change the function of a car way more then a gunsmith can change the function of a weapon.

Why does a mechanic have to completely change the function of a car to be a manufacturer but if a gunsmith threads a barrel to allow a muzzle break to be attached some how that's being a manufacturer.

It is a complete double standard and it's why your argument is crap.
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you have answered your own question
the difference is the mechanic is unable to cause the vehicle to do something it could not do before the mechanic's processes upon it whereas the gunsmith can cause the firearm to do something it could not previously do prior to his added processing. the very difference between a manuacturer and a non-manufacturer
 
braindrain said:
A lot more then a gun can do after a gunsmith gets gets done with a gun. Either you are just grasping at straws or you have no idea what a gunsmith actually does
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i believe it is you who has no understanding about what constitutes a manufacturer from a non-manufacturer
 
braindrain said:
And speed shops do things to cars all the time so that they can do something that's against regulation. You really have no argument and are just making yourself look silly.
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what do the speed shops do to the car than allows it to do something it could not do before the shop's added processes?
making it shineyer or faster or brake better are not functions the car could not do before. it could already go fast, be shiney, and brake
you illustrate a lack of understanding about what constitutes being a manufacturer. just as many have the same misunderstanding as presented in the OP about why a gunsmith is treated as a manufacturer
 
TurtleDude said:
that's just plain idiotic. that's like saying if you put bigger wheels on a truck you are a truck manufacturer. Your post suggests a desire to try to defend the idiocy of Obama but you don't really have much of an argument.
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placing larger wheels on a vehicle does not cause it to be able to do something it was not previously able to do prior to the application of the different wheels hence, that is NOT manufacturing
your nephew modifying a firearm to do what it could not previously do DOES constitute manufacturing
 
TurtleDude said:
and how does a 2500 dollar license change that-you are just arguing for the sake of arguing without any rational position
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thank saint ronnie reagan for instituting the practice of 'user fees'. since your nephew will have to be more regulated he will have to incur some of the costs of that enhanced monitoring
 
Rucker61 said:
None of the actions are prohibited by law - you just have to buy a more expensive license. This rule in no way adds to the "greater good".
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modifying a legal firearm to function in a manner prohibited by law is prohibited
preventing such activities serves the public's greater good
 
justabubba said:
they know which manufacturers/gunsmiths to monitor

that person with gunsmith skills who does it on the side, without hanging a public shingle, can do the same work, and it is still illegal. however, being without a store front, he will be expected to have much less traffic. he will be more difficult to monitor, but having fewer customers, he will cause less havoc than the gunsmith open and advertising to the public
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I think your idea that someone without a store front can't draw as much traffic as someone with one is wrong. Lots of people with home based businesses don't have formal store front shops and generate all their business through word of mouth and the internet. Gunsmithing is a bit more esoteric than, say shoe repair, and isn't likely to generate lots of walk in traffic.

Going further if you want to keep tabs on what gunsmiths do it's a simple enough matter to require that they keep records of work done. There is no need to treat them like manufacturers. In truth the idea of treating them like manufacturers seems little more than ploy to just bust people's balls.
 
Rucker61 said:
None of the changes are considered a risk to society. The law doesn't prohibit any of the changes - it just makes them more expensive.
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i do believe there are modifications that a gunsmith can make to a legal firearm which will then cause the firearm to function in ways prohibited by the law
that is what causes the need for close monitoring of gunsmiths for the benefit of society
 
danielpalos said:
a gunsmith is a smith that works with guns. if you have enough gold, you can even have a golden gun, custom made.
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and to follow up on that 'salient' point, if one stands out in the rain, chances are good they will get wet. thank you for your contributions to this thread
sarcasm alert.gif
 
Gaius46 said:
I think your idea that someone without a store front can't draw as much traffic as someone with one is wrong. Lots of people with home based businesses don't have formal store front shops and generate all their business through word of mouth and the internet. Gunsmithing is a bit more esoteric than, say shoe repair, and isn't likely to generate lots of walk in traffic.
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if they are unlicensed, no matter their business location, they are non-compliant with the law. if they are not performing processes to cause a legal weapon to function in ways prohibited by the law, they will probably only sustain a civil fine. however, if they are unlicensed and processing legal arms such that they become illegal by their changed functionality, that shade-tree gunsmith subjects himself to severe legal liability. not sure one would want to advertise that kind of service on craigslist/the internet tubes and expect to remain a viable entity not soon visited by ATF

Going further if you want to keep tabs on what gunsmiths do it's a simple enough matter to require that they keep records of work done. There is no need to treat them like manufacturers. In truth the idea of treating them like manufacturers seems little more than ploy to just bust people's balls.
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what would keep the gunsmith from neglecting to document his modification of a legal arm to become a illegal arm? about as much as what keeps a business owner from failing to report undocumented cash receipts, is my guess
 
justabubba said:
if he opens a store front as a gunsmith he will be required to
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Not going to fall for it. I am spitting that hook out. I really do not believe you are serious and are simply taking this position to spin folks up.
 
justabubba said:
if they are unlicensed, no matter their business location, they are non-compliant with the law. if they are not performing processes to cause a legal weapon to function in ways prohibited by the law, they will probably only sustain a civil fine. however, if they are unlicensed and processing legal arms such that they become illegal by their changed functionality, that shade-tree gunsmith subjects himself to severe legal liability. not sure one would want to advertise that kind of service on craigslist/the internet tubes and expect to remain a viable entity not soon visited by ATF


what would keep the gunsmith from neglecting to document his modification of a legal arm to become a illegal arm? about as much as what keeps a business owner from failing to report undocumented cash receipts, is my guess
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I'm not arguing that gunsmiths shouldn't be licensed, I'm arguing the difference between professional licensing, which has minimal cost and red tape, versus treating someone as a manufacturer with considerably more cost and red tape. I'm arguing there is no point to the latter other than harassment. Any monitoring you want to implement can do be done against a licensee as easily as a manufacturer.
 
Gaius46 said:
I'm not arguing that gunsmiths shouldn't be licensed, I'm arguing the difference between professional licensing, which has minimal cost and red tape, versus treating someone as a manufacturer with considerably more cost and red tape. I'm arguing there is no point to the latter other than harassment. Any monitoring you want to implement can do be done against a licensee as easily as a manufacturer.
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to the sentence i have placed in bold font: and that is exactly what is happening. and if their license is for that of a gunsmith, since they require monitoring due to their ability to modify legal weapons to perform as illegal weapons, they will incur a portion of the enhanced cost of enhanced monitoring. just as saint ronnie reagan proposed they should, as a 'user fee'
you (and i believe turtledude) view that as harrassment. i see it as protecting the public at a required expense - in part - borne by the licensed gunsmith. it's a cost of business. since all gunsmiths are subject to the same fee, none are treated in a disparate manner
 
justabubba said:
i do believe there are modifications that a gunsmith can make to a legal firearm which will then cause the firearm to function in ways prohibited by the law
that is what causes the need for close monitoring of gunsmiths for the benefit of society
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You seem to miss the fact that the law still allowing those modifications to be made; those modifications themselves aren't illegal. The government is just charging more for them.

And I'm starting to think you're just taking the piss. You can't be this obtuse.
 
justabubba said:
technically, yes, if the device was made able to do something after the processing that it was unable to do before

and chances are good that the DIY person will get away with it. but being licensed and regulated, the gunsmith in the store front will have a more difficult time doing the same
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So Billy Bob, who has simply put a couple if household times together with spit and duct tape and lashed them on to a firearm is now a manufacturer....


Wow.
 
Fledermaus said:
So Billy Bob, who has simply put a couple if household times together with spit and duct tape and lashed them on to a firearm is now a manufacturer....


Wow.
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only if billy bob was able to apply processes which allowed the firearm to function in a manner it could not previously. if he could do that, he is a manufacturer
 
justabubba said:
and if their license is for that of a gunsmith, since they require monitoring due to their ability to modify legal weapons to perform as illegal weapons,
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They aren't creating illegal weapons. They aren't even creating weapons.
 
TurtleDude said:
One of my nephews, mid 20s, spent 10 years of his life hoping to be a custom gunsmith. Earned a degree in mechanical engineering, took additional classes in gunsmithing, invested in expensive tools only to see that career path ruined when Obama-through executive order (a suit is pending on this brought by the NRA-ILA)-made many gunsmiths who do custom work "manufacturers" rather than gunsmiths. This mean that a license that was a couple hundred bucks went to several thousand and the paperwork was idiotic. Forcing many such people out of the business.

HOpefully Trump overturns the Obama administration's many Eos on guns. Another one that we need to get rid of-some of our allies have lots of well taken care of MI Garand Rifles and MI carbines we sold them or gave them several decades ago.. These obsolete (militarily) but highly desired by collectors and shooters, were going to be reimported into the USA. But Obama, lying as usual-claimed that "he didn't want these weapons of war on our streets causing carnage" and through EO prevented that reimportation

our own government sold hundreds of thousands of these firearms to private citizens. and guess what-in 30 years as a prosecutor, I have never come across any evidence that a GARAND rifle was used in a murder in the USA. And while a few MI carbines might have been, its been rather rare.

that EO should be thrown out
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Just in case someone wants to argue your point, here is a link to verify what your are describing.

https://www.atf.gov/file/82791/download

There might have been some amendments since this was drafted in 2010, but I'm not sure.
 
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