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IF merely being suspected of "terrorism" or being investigated by the FBI

flogger said:
You've lost half a million lives since 2000 to guns the great bulk of which were non defensive shootings. Thats more than you lost in both world wars combined

I'd call that a problem :(
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criminals killing criminals are a net positive. People killing themselves is neutral.
 
flogger said:
Which is nonsense of course.

Guns rarely used for self-defense in US — there are 32 criminal homicides for every 1 justifiable killing
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so you pick a liberal blog site as evidence? as I thought confirmation bias.

https://www.gunowners.org/sk0802htm.htm

actually sited sources even a paper by the anti-gun Clinton administration back in the 90's.
see these are called facts backed by actual authors and real data.

now liberal blogs. if you want to continue this then I highly suggest that you actually update your sources.
 
you don't live in the USA

you aren't a US citizen

your constant rants about our rights is beyond obsessive

we don't care about your silly protestations-we don't believe you care about innocent life but rather inflicting UK style nanny state restrictions on us. You all lost, we won, and you're still mad
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I don't live in Russia Ukraine China and the Middle east either but have often commented on events that transpire there too. By your definition does my being British therefore bar me from doing so ?

Have I ever demanded that you be barred from commenting on the UK ?
 
flogger said:
You've lost half a million lives since 2000 to guns the great bulk of which were non defensive shootings. Thats more than you lost in both world wars combined

I'd call that a problem :(
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not really when most of those are gangs killing other gang members or drug dealers killing other drug dealers.
however 2.5 million citizens used a gun to defend themselves.

1.5 million times a year guns are used for self defense purposes.
200k women a year use a gun to prevent sexual assault.

citizens kill more criminals on average than police do.

I honestly am not worried about gang or drug dealers killing each other it is actually better for society if they take
each other out.

far more people are killed by cars, falling, drowning than guns.

so should we ban those things as well?
 
flogger said:
Yes and your 'Gunowners of America' blog is likely to be far more objective isn't it ? :lol:
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you missed the part where they cited actual studies even one from the anti-gun Clinton administration.

so again as I thought you only read what you want to read and ignore facts that you don't like. your dishonesty is noted.
what is in the article is actually backed by studies and peer review processes from actual journals and other publications.

they are based in fact from criminal and FBI data. rawstory is nothing more than a dailykos wanna be in their liberal ranting.

you don't know this because you refuse to read anything that doesn't align with your ideology. confirmation bias is a fallacy.
 
flogger said:
We simply value saving lives more than saving guns and that unquestionably gives us the moral high ground here.

Your nations very bloody example and its casual ambivalence to it is all we need to confirm this
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The moral high ground? From the nation that once controlled an empire across the entire world? The empire that had to be forcefully removed by more than one nation due to their trampling of rights? And then continued on for how long?
 
ludin said:
citizens kill more criminals on average than police do.
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Last year there were 269 defensive shootings by civilians. Your police killed 1124. You had 14,249 homicides overall around 70% of which involved the use of a firearm (FBI data 2015)

Guns make killing far too easy be that murder or suicide
 
blackjack50 said:
The moral high ground? From the nation that once controlled an empire across the entire world? The empire that had to be forcefully removed by more than one nation due to their trampling of rights? And then continued on for how long?
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You can hardly trumpet about your nations human rights record given we abolished slavery decades before you did and even as recently as 50 years ago your black communities were still struggling for any sort of equality
 
flogger said:
Last year there were 269 defensive shootings by civilians. Your police killed 1124. You had 14,249 homicides overall around 70% of which involved the use of a firearm (FBI data 2015)

Guns make killing far too easy be that murder or suicide
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Armed citizens kill more crooks than do the police. Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606).[

ANALYSIS: In One Year, Guns Stopped Hundreds Of Criminals | The Daily Caller
 
ludin said:
you missed the part where they cited actual studies even one from the anti-gun Clinton administration.
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And you missed the part where my source used actual figures from the FBI records

If you don't like them then take it up with the FBI :wink:
 
flogger said:
You can hardly trumpet about your nations human rights record given we abolished slavery decades before you did and even as recently as 50 years ago your black communities were still struggling for any sort of equality
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Uh huh. But y'all also set the stage for a huge number of countries to be ****ed up down the line.

Nigeria is just one example. Y'all were best buds with the northern, autocratic, fundamentalist tribes and helped them crush the more democractic southerners.

https://www.nsfwcorp.com/dispatch/war-nerd-boko-haram/
 
TurtleDude said:
should prevent someone who has yet to be charged, indicted or convicted of any crime, from being able to own a gun

then why should someone be able to be nominated, run or serve as president when they too are under investigation?

Hmmmm
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Neither should be disqualifying. Attempting to do either raises clear Constitutional issues though of course most people don't care and just want what they want.
 
flogger said:
Prove it because that is not what they actually claim. Your ATF bureau also confirms this
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You need to stop lying. I will make you prove it, because I know my statement is correct, I just hunted down the numbers I already knew to be correct and confirmed it. legal private person to person sales are not an avenue of preference for obtaining firearms. so post your numbers, and I'll post mine.



So they check all vehicles crossing state lines then ? I very seriously doubt thats remotely possible
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do your police officers inspect everything that crosses political subdivisions? does every vehicle from France and N. Ireland get searched? no they do not. in fact almost no vehicles moving within Europe get searched. at political boundaries, nor are you pushing for such a thing there, so the state to state comparison is bogus, when political leaders blame law makers in another jurisdiction for their problems that is called "scapegoating". it is a blame game not a legitimate point.

if someone is trafficking arms across state lines they are violating federal law and when the ATF learns about it they arrest and prosecute those people. what anti gunners really want is uniform gun bans imposed on the entire country by political fringe extremists in urban areas.
 
flogger said:
And you missed the part where my source used actual figures from the FBI records

If you don't like them then take it up with the FBI :wink:
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bias information is bias information no matter which way you cut it.
fact is gun's save more lives than they take. so far you haven't refuted this.

the fact is even according to the FBI there are 1.5-2.5 million uses of guns per year in self defense.
Those are facts that you have yet to address or won't.

Dr Gary Kleck of FSU criminology department came up with the fact that every year 650k American defended themselves with threat of a gun.

50% of those were actual shots fired. that is 10x the number of people that died from them.
the majority of shootings in the US are suicides or people shooting themselves.
next is criminal element shooting at each other.

so your attempt to frame the argument has failed based on actual real data.
so again most gun deaths are suicide or criminal related.
guns actually save peoples lives from would be attackers.

these are called facts.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
You need to stop lying. I will make you prove it, because I know my statement is correct, I just hunted down the numbers I already knew to be correct and confirmed it. legal private person to person sales are not an avenue of preference for obtaining firearms. so post your numbers, and I'll post mine.
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nope they are not. most people don't just sell their guns to anyone. they are usually to friends or
to a dealer of some kind.



do your police officers inspect everything that crosses political subdivisions? does every vehicle from France and N. Ireland get searched? no they do not. in fact almost no vehicles moving within Europe get searched. at political boundaries, nor are you pushing for such a thing there, so the state to state comparison is bogus, when political leaders blame law makers in another jurisdiction for their problems that is called "scapegoating". it is a blame game not a legitimate point.

if someone is trafficking arms across state lines they are violating federal law and when the ATF learns about it they arrest and prosecute those people. what anti gunners really want is uniform gun bans imposed on the entire country by political fringe extremists in urban areas.
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it is easily to move through Europe once you are in there. once you get into the EU that is it you are in. you can pretty much
fly to any EU country without going through customs. I would assume this would be the case in driving as well.
once you are in you are in.
 
ludin said:
bias information is bias information no matter which way you cut it.
fact is gun's save more lives than they take. so far you haven't refuted this.

the fact is even according to the FBI there are 1.5-2.5 million uses of guns per year in self defense.
Those are facts that you have yet to address or won't.

Dr Gary Kleck of FSU criminology department came up with the fact that every year 650k American defended themselves with threat of a gun.

50% of those were actual shots fired. that is 10x the number of people that died from them.
the majority of shootings in the US are suicides or people shooting themselves.
next is criminal element shooting at each other.

so your attempt to frame the argument has failed based on actual real data.
so again most gun deaths are suicide or criminal related.
guns actually save peoples lives from would be attackers.

these are called facts.
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If the figures used in my link were wrong or have been misrepresented in some then show where ?
 
flogger said:
If the figures used in my link were wrong or have been misrepresented in some then show where ?
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I just did. or did you read my links or posts? probably not since they counter you.
 
ludin said:
nope they are not. most people don't just sell their guns to anyone. they are usually to friends or
to a dealer of some kind.
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And many do. Its simply a case of pleading ignorance that they either did or didn't know the purchaser was a criminal. There is no law that requires them to have proof

I'm sure the felons have worked that out an awful long time ago. Its not rocket science after all
 
mmi said:
Yeah, I'm sure he could have killed 49 people and seriously wounded dozens more … with a butter knife.

So you gun NUTS are content with a system that allowed this NUT who was twice investigated by the FBI for terrorist connections … to go to the local gun shop, by an assault rifle, and load up with lots of ammunition. Of course. He had a clear constitutional right to … "protect himself," or go "rabbit hunting," or "enjoy some target practice."

As far as I'm concerned, ya better pull yer head out of it before it's someone you care about that gets ripped into by a few of these charming items.


I don't wanna ban guns. Not even close. I want gun nuts who block efforts to make it more difficult for mass murderers to purchase killing machines … to suffer the way the victims of gun violence and their families suffer.

And I sure do look forward to eight more years of hysterical delusions regarding emails and Benghazi and the Clinton Foundation and Vince Foster and Cattlegate and Filegate and Travelgate and the Rose Law Firm. I'm getting tired of never went to college, married to his male college roommate, hates America, hates the military, hates whites, hates the police, is destroying America, bows down to every foreign leader he meets, wasn't born in the US, terrorist sympathizer (Frumpy all but explicitly said that today), lies all the times, stutters all the time, secret Muslim, etc , etc. We need some new entertainment.
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What makes you think you can pick a mass murderer out of a lineup before they act if the FBI can't?
 
flogger said:
You can hardly trumpet about your nations human rights record given we abolished slavery decades before you did and even as recently as 50 years ago your black communities were still struggling for any sort of equality
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Do we need to discuss your treatment of the Irish? Indians? Caribbean minorities? How about your continued empire after he Second World War? Your domination of the Middle East? South east Asia? Africa?

Come on man. We all know that the UK was hardly innocent when it came to the "White man's burden." Funny. That phrase came from a Brit.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
or 168 with fertilizer and diesel fuel
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How would he have gotten it into the building?

>>in the United States we have due process

That's good for a laugh but nothing else. Due process has nothing to do with this. You support the idea that someone who gets placed on a terror watch list should be allowed to make the purchase that led to the death of forty-nine people. Hell, even if he'd been kept on the list, he still have been allowed to "load up" under currrent law.

>>not all victims of violence agree with this.

And how is that relevant?

>>None of these are related to the issue at hand.

It's in the OP. In fact it's half of the OP.

Crimefree said:
could you explain how making it IMPOSSIBLE … for people to legally purchase drugs why they are freely available in every nook of every city?
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I'd say they're available because people sell them. Make sense?

>>I really am looking forward to reading your explanation of why guns will work when drugs, alcohol, pornography, explosives and host of other things have not.

I know you can buy dope on a lot of street corners in some sections of many cities. I've never heard of an "AR-15 bazaar."

>>What have gun control advocates got that makes them super brains with this all figured out?

Common sense.

ludin said:
you fallacy is noted. irrelevant but noted.
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What's fallacious about it? You figure a butter knife would have been just as effective?

>>we have a thing called innocent until proven guilty.

Yes, and we also have a thing that allows people on a terror watch list to buy an assault rifle and load up with ammo.

>>simply being accused of something doesn't negate your rights.

Being placed on a terror watch list should, imo, abrogate yer right to set yerself up like that for a killing spree.

>>Hillary … is being accused of several federal felony's

That's a stupid lie. You barf up stuff like that all the time. Oh wait, you may mean that she's being "accused" by right-wing nuts. OK, I'll grant you that.

>>you have yet to show where he was charged or convicted of any crime or wrong-doing.

"Yet"? He was placed on a terror watch list. No easily carried and wielded mass-murder devices for him, imo.

>>the poor ad hominem that is irrelevant.

That was not an ad hominem. Yer one of the clowns in this community that throws around terms like that thinking it makes you look like yer a debate wizard. In this case, it makes you look like an idiot.

>>can you identify who is a mass murderer and who isn't?

I can read a name on a terror watch list.

>>seems like an arbitrary test to me.

I figure people don't get randomly selected to be placed on a terror watch list.

>>one that you can't actually perform objectionally.

I don't think it's possible to do anything "objectionally."

>>you basically want to punish 99% of the population for the actions of less than 1% of the population.

Is 99% of the population on a terror watch list?

>>what happened was a bad thing, however no law would have stopped it.

Oy. A law that prevents people on a terror watch list from buying an assault rifle would have.

>>if he couldn't have bought a gun on from a store he would have bought a gun on the street and accomplished the same thing.

"Hey, you lookin'?" "Yeah, what you got?" "I got some black tar, and oh yeah, I got an AR-15 and some boxes of ammo."​

>>so you don't think that we as a nation of laws should up hold those laws that ideology should interfere with who gets punished under those laws?

I think it should be against the law for someone on a terror watch list to purchase an assault rifle. Got it now?

>>at least you admit it here for everyone to see.

Hilarious.

Fwiw, I don't want to disappoint anyone, but it's very unlikely I'll post in this thread again. You guys can continue to rub yer guns and I'll find other things to do.
 
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